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Oct 31, 2017
4,333
Unknown
https://www.politico.com/magazine/s...linn-estonia-girds-for-war-with-russia-218965
NATO heads of state are due to meet Wednesday in Brussels beneath the disinterested gaze of President Donald Trump before he jets off to meet Russian President Vladimir Putin in Helsinki. In between, British Prime Minister Theresa May—who faces a pending collision with the brick wall of Brexit—meets first with German Chancellor Angela Merkel and then with Trump. It's a rapid-fire series of what would usually be staid diplomatic photo-ops that could, in this iteration, seriously disrupt the international order that has made the United States a global superpower since the end of World War II.
While the president and other Republican envoys make reassuring entreaties to the Kremlin, Trump continues to view himself as the disruptor of NATO. In the weeks leading up to the NATO summit, the president again berated America's allies for their defense spending. To push back, supporters of the trans-Atlantic framework that is the architecture of American power in the world are on an information blitz, heralding increased defense spending across the alliance.
All this has been accompanied by the usual cycle of pre-summit reports about NATO's defensive vulnerabilities—including the choke point of the Suwalki Gap between Poland and Lithuania. And, as usual, it's the allies to the north of that gap that are trying to stay focused on what matters most: the fundamental transformation of the alliance that is needed.
Almost 10 years after the Russian invasion of Georgia in August 2008, it's clear NATO still needs to learn more quickly from our partners with a deeper history of fighting Russian aggression in all its various forms. Foremost of those partners is Estonia, which, unlike Georgia, is a full NATO member and has been since 2004.
There's an unspoken duality underlying the mind-set of Estonian defense. To survive, you must integrate: The three Baltic states—Estonia plus Latvia and Lithuania—acted as a unified region to achieve NATO and EU membership, and they continue to engage the U.S. and NATO from that "B3" format above all. NATO's charter requires that the alliance come to the aid of any member who is attacked. But to survive as a small and vulnerable state, you must also believe that a crisis will come where you will again be on your own fighting the Russians, and you have to be prepared for that.
The idea that Estonia—whose entire population isn't much bigger than Russia's standing army, and which has little on its own in the way of air power and armor—could withstand a Russian assault might seem like a silly discussion from the far side of the Atlantic. But Estonia has resources that are as much in demand in the alliance as TOW missiles and tanks: will and a mobilized population. In a country of just over 1.3 million, fully 60,000 are trained and serve in the military or reserves. The importance of this human element cannot be dismissed: Estonians still have vivid memories of the price of occupation, and this perspective sharpens strategic planning in unexpected ways.


On a recent rainy afternoon in Tallinn, in the shadow of Estonia's Freedom Cross, I met Colonel Riho Uhtegi, commander of the Estonian Special Operations Force, to discuss the Russian threat and the new deterrence.

"People talk about this 'Five Days War' in Georgia" said Uhtegi, staring out into the rain. "But it wasn't five days. The hybrid campaign started much earlier. No one wanted to see it."
"Modern warfare is asymmetric in nature," Uhtegi told me. "It is difficult to find the enemy forces on the ground. It is difficult to identify them, fix their position and destroy them. But this is what we must prepare for here. Like Afghanistan, Iraq—but here."


"You know why the Russians didn't take Tbilisi in 2008?" Uhtegi asked me. "They were just up the road, 50 kilometers or so, and nothing was stopping them."

Having spent many years in Georgia, I knew the answer to this one: because Georgians are crazy. Uhtegi barked a laugh. "Yes. Exactly. Georgians are crazy, and they would fight. The idea of this unwinnable asymmetric fight in Tbilisi was not so appealing to the Russians."

He continued: "There are always these discussions. Like, yeah. The Russians can get to Tallinn in two days. ... Maybe. [The Estonian capital is about 125 miles from the Russian border.] But they can't get all of Estonia in two days. They can get to Tallinn, and behind them, we will cut their communication lines and supplies lines and everything else." That dead-eyed Baltic stare fixes me again. "They can get to Tallinn in two days. But they will die in Tallinn. And they know this. … They will get fire from every corner, at every step."

The threat of invasion may seem far less existential from the American heartland, where no one has ever listened to the commander of an elite fighting force talk about his family's plan in case crisis comes. Everyone, Uhtegi said, had such a program for their families during the occupation—and they still do now. Essential to this is an understanding of who fights, and providing those fighters the sense of certainty that their families know what to do to find relative safety without them.
"We didn't believe anyone was coming to help us in 1991," Uhtegi said. "Even after independence, no one would even sell weapons to Estonia at first. So, I knew who in my units had every gun, and how many rounds of ammunition each man had. … We had to hope for a peaceful transition. … But you can only do that with a willingness to fight."
This last part remains a quiet debate across the allies of NATO—whether the willingness and readiness to fight NATO's eastern neighbor can deter Russian adventurism, or whether this preparation is a "provocation" to which the paranoid Kremlin will inevitably overreact. In Estonia, however, there is reasonable clarity that anytime national defensive positions are compromised for the sake of placating Russia, we've already gotten it wrong.


Trump's focus on defense spending misses that some allies like Estonia not only meet spending commitments but also shoulder a disproportionate amount of the ideological burden of NATO—the willingness to fight.

"I don't know what it would be like if the Russians really start to fight," Uhtegi told me as we walked out into the clearing skies, the Freedom Cross now glowing above the square. "Just that every Estonian will fight."
 

xbhaskarx

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
5,143
NorCal
Hmm what reason could Trump have to weaken and possibly destroy the most successful military alliance of the post-war era.....
 

danowat

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
5,783
On a sorta related note, I had no idea that the RAF was on an operation in Romania to put Russia off from aggressive maneuvers over Romania
 

Shauni

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
5,728
I lived in Georgia for a year, and he's not wrong. Still some Russia sympathizers of course, but a lot of them (at least at the time I was there) really would fight until the last drop of blood not to be occupied again.

Doubt that was the sole reason, though lol
 

Mr. Giggles

Member
Oct 31, 2017
685
Good article, I'm not familiar with the history of Estonia but how bad was it when they were a Part of the USSR?
 

Senteevs

Member
Oct 28, 2017
449
Latvia
Well, that's brave talk and all, but I'm from Latvia. Our military is very small. We have like five tanks and three helicopters. Not kidding.
In the event of an Russian invasion (I believe it will happer sooner rather than later) I'm running. I ain't putting some false sense of pride or patriotism above the safety of my family. Fuck that.
And nobody in their right mind here believes that NATO nevermind the US will do jack shit to stop them if an invasion happens. It's happened way too many times and all that Ukraine and Georgia got were sanctions and "thoughts and prayers".
 

fushi

Member
Oct 26, 2017
272
He shifts his very blue Estonian gaze back from the distance.
This is some top-grade Esto-Erotica here.
Good article, I'm not familiar with the history of Estonia but how bad was it when they were a Part of the USSR?
Pretty bad, my dude.

A country that once had a GDP per capita that was higher than Finland's is now still decades away from reaching their level -- and we might never get there since neoliberalism doesn't really favor smaller economies.

Then there's also the issue of a sizable Russian minority being present due to past forced migrations, and their unwillingness to integrate and oftentimes even accept the existence of an Independent Estonian state. The Estonian state has failed here as well, of course.

There's also lots and lots of horrible architecture of the Soviet tenement block -kind. Whole districts full of that shit with nothing to look forward to.

Lastly, looking onwards, populism is slowly taking hold here. Politics has become incredibly short-sighted and the (mostly) successful reforms of the 90s have been replaced with either lazy and poorly-informed tweaks to the status quo or borderline racist yelling from the sidelines. There doesn't seem to be a sense of perspective anymore.
 

Malovis

Member
Oct 27, 2017
767
I really don't want this since it will ruin my plans of buying cheap real estate as a economic refugee.
 
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Clowns

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,870
Well, that's brave talk and all, but I'm from Latvia. Our military is very small. We have like five tanks and three helicopters. Not kidding.
In the event of an Russian invasion (I believe it will happer sooner rather than later) I'm running. I ain't putting some false sense of pride or patriotism above the safety of my family. Fuck that.
And nobody in their right mind here believes that NATO nevermind the US will do jack shit to stop them if an invasion happens. It's happened way too many times and all that Ukraine and Georgia got were sanctions and "thoughts and prayers".
Ukraine and Georgia weren't NATO, however.
 

BowieZ

Member
Nov 7, 2017
3,975
This year is Putin's wet dream. So many risky plays that could determine Russia's entire fate are coalescing, against the backdrop of America's Mueller probe and Britain's willingness to admit Brexit is a terrible error that needs correcting.
 

Asator

Member
Oct 27, 2017
905
Ukraine and Georgia weren't NATO, however.
Or the EU for that matter. There's very little reason for EU members/the US to risk an open war against Russia when there's no real formal alliance with the nations involved.
Both Estonia and Latvia are part of NATO and the EU however, so things would be pretty different. Things are probably going to improve as time goes on too, especially if PESCO and Macron's "European Intervention Initiative" to improve the defence of Europe are successful.
 

Deleted member 33597

User requested account closure
Banned
Nov 17, 2017
366
This year is Putin's wet dream. So many risky plays that could determine Russia's entire fate are coalescing, against the backdrop of America's Mueller probe and Britain's willingness to admit Brexit is a terrible error that needs correcting.
It's not his wet dream, it's all according to his plan. World history is being written according to Putin's little playbook Foundations of Geopolitics and yet some people insist Russia is on the brink of collapse and Putin is just blowing hot air. Even if that's true, that doesn't prevent him from desperately trying to fix things and appease his people by doing something drastic in Europe. The man desperately wants a legacy as a powerful leader.

e: It should be noted though that realistically, Putin has no interest in a war in Europe given the bad state of the Russian economy. But what happens when Trump and the GOP get the sanctions lifted?
 
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Excuse me

Member
Oct 30, 2017
2,020
I don't really see Russia trying to attack Estonia. It's not a country where you can send your "little green men" to creat division and arm opposition. I wouldn't count on NATO support besides material support, but even still, war with Estonia would be never ending battle. There is no going back to times of USSR.
 

Deleted member 25712

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 29, 2017
1,803
Again, the fact that it's an open secret we have right wingers and the POTUS collaborating with Russians to undermine NATO and the security of Europe and seemingly nothing is being done about it is so fucking astounding to me. The senate just voted overwhelmingly for a resolution touting our support of NATO, and yet, it's just words when there are people on the front lines in actual danger. Thousands of Ukrainians have died. A commercial airliner has been shot down. Britons have been poisoned. And yet Republican senators are chilling in Russia on the 4th of July and calling for an end to sanctions? What the fuck is going on here?
 

Ac30

Member
Oct 30, 2017
14,527
London
Well, that's brave talk and all, but I'm from Latvia. Our military is very small. We have like five tanks and three helicopters. Not kidding.
In the event of an Russian invasion (I believe it will happer sooner rather than later) I'm running. I ain't putting some false sense of pride or patriotism above the safety of my family. Fuck that.
And nobody in their right mind here believes that NATO nevermind the US will do jack shit to stop them if an invasion happens. It's happened way too many times and all that Ukraine and Georgia got were sanctions and "thoughts and prayers".

If that happens and we do nothing then NATO falls and the rest of Eastern Europe with it.

Ukraine and Georgia aren't in NATO.
 

Keikaku

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,769
Estonians are right. Let them come and then kill every last motherfucker with bare hands if you must.

Russians have to nuke us if they want to win a war.
 

Senteevs

Member
Oct 28, 2017
449
Latvia
Yes, Ukraine and Georgia aren't in NATO or the EU but when push comes to shove I don't believe for a second that Germany and/or France would do anything to help a country with 1,5 million people (a third of them Russian) besides condemning such actions given their dependency on Russian gas and oil.
 

Taki

Attempt to circumvent a ban with an alt account
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
5,308
Well, that's brave talk and all, but I'm from Latvia. Our military is very small. We have like five tanks and three helicopters. Not kidding.
In the event of an Russian invasion (I believe it will happer sooner rather than later) I'm running. I ain't putting some false sense of pride or patriotism above the safety of my family. Fuck that.
And nobody in their right mind here believes that NATO nevermind the US will do jack shit to stop them if an invasion happens. It's happened way too many times and all that Ukraine and Georgia got were sanctions and "thoughts and prayers".

I've always wanted to visit the Estonia-Latvia-Lithuania corridor and am interested in your perspective. Given the political climate, do you think it's a safe time for me as a tourist to visit Riga?
 

KillerMan91

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,355
Yes, Ukraine and Georgia aren't in NATO or the EU but when push comes to shove I don't believe for a second that Germany and/or France would do anything to help a country with 1,5 million people (a third of them Russian) besides condemning such actions given their dependency on Russian gas and oil.
'

EU or NATO wouldn't even need to care about the people living in Baltics and still it would be in their interest to intervene because doing nothing would kill EU and NATO and would reshape the European political and economical landscape in favor of Russia (because EU and NATO dead Russia could continue their annexations). It's national interest of France and Germany etc. to intervene.
 

Senteevs

Member
Oct 28, 2017
449
Latvia
I've always wanted to visit the Estonia-Latvia-Lithuania corridor and am interested in your perspective. Given the political climate, do you think it's a safe time for me as a tourist to visit Riga?

Of course it is. There is no "political unrest" here. At least not in the sense that there's rioting in the streets or thugs walking around punching unsuspecting tourists. Riga is beautiful, as are other places here and in both other Baltic states. If you like old architecture and cheap, great beer, you probably won't be disappointed.
 

Senteevs

Member
Oct 28, 2017
449
Latvia
EU or NATO wouldn't even need to care about the people living in Baltics and still it would be in their interest to intervene because doing nothing would kill EU and NATO and would reshape the European political and economical landscape in favor of Russia (because EU and NATO dead Russia could continue their annexations). It's national interest of France and Germany etc. to intervene.

I really hope you are right but given the size of our countries we'd all be dead before somebody arrives.
 

BabyMurloc

Member
Oct 29, 2017
1,890
Of course it is. There is no "political unrest" here. At least not in the sense that there's rioting in the streets or thugs walking around punching unsuspecting tourists. Riga is beautiful, as are other places here and in both other Baltic states. If you like old architecture and cheap, great beer, you probably won't be disappointed.

And once you get to Tallinn, you can make a day trip to Finland, the land of expensive beer!
 

Deleted member 9986

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,248
Estonia is the EU. Nothing will happen. It would be the end of the union. How the EU works is that 'essential' institutions are spread out throughout the member states.

Estonia is too important on the IT front to have this happen to. Cyber attacks and other saber rattling? Sure. I can see that.
 

sapien85

Banned
Nov 8, 2017
5,427
Estonia is the EU. Nothing will happen. It would be the end of the union. How the EU works is that 'essential' institutions are spread out throughout the member states.

Estonia is too important on the IT front to have this happen to. Cyber attacks and other saber rattling? Sure. I can see that.

"Peace in our time"
 
Oct 27, 2017
2,902
Scotland
I've always wanted to visit the Estonia-Latvia-Lithuania corridor and am interested in your perspective. Given the political climate, do you think it's a safe time for me as a tourist to visit Riga?

Of course it is. Quite a silly question. Going to Riga this summer and been to Lithuania last year (Particularly at the Curonian Spit which is literally next door to Russia's Kaliningrad Region) and came across zero problems.
 

Deleted member 9986

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,248
This is different, the baltics actually have value geopolitically to western Europe and that linked agreement helped prepare for a later war. This current issue has been a lingering problem since the fall of the USSR. Russia will sooner get eastern Ukraine recognized with the willing baltic Russians moved over than that the EU will accept annexation of their own.
 

zoukka

Game Developer
Verified
Oct 28, 2017
2,361
I've always wanted to visit the Estonia-Latvia-Lithuania corridor and am interested in your perspective. Given the political climate, do you think it's a safe time for me as a tourist to visit Riga?

Absolutely safe. Just came back from a week long road trip from there.
 

AMAGON

Prominent Member
Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,955
Austin, TX
This is crazy to hear the thought of Russia trying to fuck with Estonia. I have a friend over there and thinking about her thinking about this is nerving to say the least.
 

fushi

Member
Oct 26, 2017
272
Given the political climate, do you think it's a safe time for me as a tourist to visit Riga?
This is crazy to hear the thought of Russia trying to fuck with Estonia. I have a friend over there and thinking about her thinking about this is nerving to say the least.
This is the disservice these articles do, creating an illusion of a dangerous political climate and a country on the brink of war.

Tallinn (and Riga, I'd assume) are safer than most major cities in Western Europe.
 

Senteevs

Member
Oct 28, 2017
449
Latvia
Tallinn (and Riga, I'd assume) are safer than most major cities in Western Europe.

No doubt about that. No guns. Cops are patrolling every major tourist spot in the country. No terrorism to speak of.
Most problems in tourist spots come from tourists themselves as they get drunk and try to piss on national monuments for some reason.
 
OP
OP
Unknown Unknown
Oct 31, 2017
4,333
Unknown
This article does outline well the hardened spirit and willingness to fight of the Estonians. A valuable and uncommon resource as the article notes and as some posters here demonstrate.

The article also brings to attention to the importance of the NATO alliance in protecting not only the individual sovereignty of its members but also securing strategic locations such as the Suwalki Corridor from hostile aggressors. The defense of which is being threatened by the Trump administration and their Republican supporters who may be compromised by Russia.

Canadians and the citizens of many nations can learn valuable lessons and take inspiration from the Estonians and their allies.
Canada, NATO and the EU should not only openly support but also be willing to defend their Baltic allies with the same will and determination the Estonians show for their land and as though the land of their allies were their own.
 
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Daphne

Avenger
Oct 27, 2017
3,690
That dead-eyed Baltic stare fixes me again. "They can get to Tallinn in two days. But they will die in Tallinn. And they know this. … They will get fire from every corner, at every step."

Jesus. I'm glad this guy is on my side.

Think about all the people like this guy at what would be the front lines; the first people who will have to deal with any conflict with Russia, much like Ukraine currently is. Think about how the US is the only country to invoke collective defense from NATO, and people like this guy answered. All those countries who lost citizens helping the US. Think about the attacks Russia has mounted all over Europe and on the US in the last few years (oh, and Australia but I don't expect people have heard about those).

Now think about how that piece of shit Trump whines about NATO and guys like this. Whining about how much US "gives", even though that's not how it works. Forgets how much the US gets out of it. When he shits all over America's closest allies while playing cock holster to the murderous dictator of Russia. Fuck Trump, a million times over.
 

Conciliator

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,132
"People talk about this 'Five Days War' in Georgia" said Uhtegi, staring out into the rain. "But it wasn't five days. The hybrid campaign started much earlier. No one wanted to see it."

This is one of the main modern war strategies that people really need to get their head around. War in the 21st century isn't just guns and missiles. It's propaganda, disinformation, disruption, instability, cyber-warfare, etc.. And the reason this has happened is ultimately the same reason guerilla warfare happened: Because it is effective.
 

Deleted member 11413

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
22,961
If the EU failed to come to the defense of Estonia in the event of a Russian invasion, that would be the death of the EU, it would dissolve because all of the guarantees of the partnership would be proven false.

I wouldnt count on US support so long as the Trump administration is in power, though.
 
Oct 27, 2017
5,247
This article does outline well the hardened spirit and willingness to fight of the Estonians. A valuable and uncommon resource as the article notes and as some posters here demonstrate.

The article also brings to attention to the importance of the NATO alliance in protecting not only the individual sovereignty of its members but also securing strategic locations such as the Suwalki Corridor from hostile aggressors. The defense of which is being threatened by the Trump administration and their Republican supporters who may be compromised by Russia.

Canadians and the citizens of many nations can learn valuable lessons and take inspiration from the Estonians and their allies.
Canada, NATO and the EU should not only openly support but also be willing to defend their allies with the same will and determination the Estonians show for their land and as though the land of allies were their own.

The same thing goes for Sweden, our whole defense strategy was counting on waves, first the air force, the navy, the coast artillery and then the army, they were counting on a total loss, in the last stage of the war it was supposed to be fought in a guerrilla war, harassing and fleeing. We were expecting to be destroyed. That was the plan when I did my service, but that was years ago.

But this except from the pamphlet the government sent to households here in Sweden has the same line we got ingrained with during my service. "If Sweden is attacked by another country, we will never give up. All the information to the effect that resistance is to cease is false"

180522110236-20180522-sweden-war-managment-exlarge-169.jpg
 
OP
OP
Unknown Unknown
Oct 31, 2017
4,333
Unknown
The same thing goes for Sweden, our whole defense strategy was counting on waves, first the air force, the navy, the coast artillery and then the army, they were counting on a total loss, in the last stage of the war it was supposed to be fought in a guerrilla war, harassing and fleeing. We were expecting to be destroyed. That was the plan when I did my service, but that was years ago.

But this except from the pamphlet the government sent to households here in Sweden has the same line we got ingrained with during my service. "If Sweden is attacked by another country, we will never give up. All the information to the effect that resistance is to cease is false"
The type of inner resolve needed to fight to the last is needed and not something that can be taught. It is something in a persons nature and fueled by the community found in national identity.
Some of the news about Sweden reporting on the disinformation being spread, the cyber and physical attacks on infrastructure and other threats is alarming.
With eastern Russia currently burning to the ground in forest fires and with little to nothing being done to reallocate forces from the west to fight those it does seem that something may be imminent.