Has Hollow Knight dethroned Super Metroid/SotN in the public eye?

What I don't get at this discussion: HK excels at Things that aren't defining for the genre. Yeah Combat and movements is miles better than in Super Metroid. But the map design and how your Progression depends on new abilities is kinda average in HK. So I get how People prefer HK over Super metroid or SotN, but I don't get how you can call it the new metroidvania genre king, when it's Focus lays elsewhere.

No. But is way better then Guacamelee.

NaDannMaGoGo said:

Well, have yet to play SotN but if Circle of the Moon is anything to go by, then yeh, Hollow Knight is leaps and bounds better.

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Bahahaha you couldn't be more wrong. Man this thread is whack.

hotcyder said:

I have no idea if I've even left the first area. It's very confusing to get around and I would of appreciated a little more direction.

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There is no direction, and you will be in your map for half of the game trying to navigate because the level design isn't intuitive. I played for 30 hours and still had to use my map for the first area at times.

Kill3r7 said:

It's an excellent game and arguably at the very top of the genre, maybe even the best the genre has to offer when it comes to combat and build variety, but for me it feels way too fucken long. I have taken several breaks from it because instead of enjoying exploring new areas, I am resenting them. Still discovering a ton of new stuff at 30+ hours into the game. It looks like I have another 10 hours to go. I am not sure I care to play Metroidvania games that are these long.

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I almost always 100% metroidvanias because that's the huge draw for me: exploration and discovery. But I tapped out at 30 hours, I just couldn't do it anymore. And that's just the base game on PC. I can't imagine how much more content is in the DLC.

The visuals in Hollow Knight are too busy for it to dethrone Super Metroid or SOTN.

It's also not that great of a metroid-vania, the backtracking is too eratic and the alternate paths don't feel alternate, the reason it works well in say SOTN or Super Metroid is because there is a main path, it branches here and there, but there is a main path still, alternate routes to sequence break or just get somewhere you maybe shouldn't be yet but you can be are only that because there is a main path.

I already said how I feel but I'll elaborate. Everyone hangs onto what they feel are classics and that is ok.. Sotn and Super metroid absolutely deserve it. But saying they can never be topped is being dismissive. the torch has to be passed at some point even if it isn't with HK it has to happen sometime, but HK hasn't been out long enough to make its mark but it'll be a challenge to do that because it's a small game.

HK won't be seen the same way because of the stigma of it being an indie game which is completely stupid and insulting to the indie space.. Indie games are just games like all the others. The notion that they are lesser is really unfair and nothing can be further from the truth. Especially in the case of HK that has more enjoyment for longer than most AAA titles at 15$ US. Maybe it'll have a chance after it comes to Xbox and ps4.

I'm just glad it's getting the attention it's getting now. HK pc fans were screaming early last year that this game was something special, but no-one was listening because of Zelda, nier and everything else that came out back then. If you wanna see what all the hype is about you should go get the game. It's the best value in gaming right now.

Public eye views Hollow Knight exactly as #7 on the all-time Metroidvania list. It's very important that this arbitrary number is settled once and for all. /s

PaulloDEC said:

http:///Z2Qc.jpg

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Proving me right about your fanbase.

Unlike you I actually play SotN every year and it's fresh in my mind, when was the last time you booted up SotN? I just got through playing it on stream just a few days ago. Hollow Knight's mechanics are far more stiff and limiting than SotN.

OrangeNova said:

It's also not that great of a metroid-vania, the backtracking is too eratic and the alternate paths don't feel alternate, the reason it works well in say SOTN or Super Metroid is because there is a main path, it branches here and there, but there is a main path still, alternate routes to sequence break or just get somewhere you maybe shouldn't be yet but you can be are only that because there is a main path.

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there's a main path, the game just doesn't guide you along it, you only get there by exploring
you need ability x to get ability y to reach the place where ability z is, but you're never told where to go next after the cutscene in City of Tears, until you reach the endgame

I think it's on par with them, for sure

OrangeNova said:

The visuals in Hollow Knight are too busy for it to dethrone Super Metroid or SOTN.

It's also not that great of a metroid-vania, the backtracking is too eratic and the alternate paths don't feel alternate, the reason it works well in say SOTN or Super Metroid is because there is a main path, it branches here and there, but there is a main path still, alternate routes to sequence break or just get somewhere you maybe shouldn't be yet but you can be are only that because there is a main path.

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I think HK not having a main path is actually what makes it awesome. Real life doesn't have main paths. A world is a world, and its going to be erratic and weird.

AzureFlame said:

Not with the artstyle and music.

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Exactly

SotN is GOAT-tier for these as far as I'm concerned. Plus, it has the gameplay too.

Games can enter the same circle, but surpass it? Nah

To add, these games still hold up well after decades. Not many other games can claim that. They're legendary status for a reason.

The art style puts me off from playing the game, so no.

Menace said:

there's a main path, the game just doesn't guide you along it, you only get there by exploring
you need ability x to get ability y to reach the place where ability z is, but you're never told where to go next shortly after reaching the cutscene in City of Tears, until you reach the endgame

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SoTN and SM don't tell you where to go either, but there's a nice gameplay funnel instead of "Here are 12 things you probably can't do, guess which one you can" (until way later, there are some obtuse items in both games, but nothing progression).

The game does a bad job of making locations memorable to make a main path because it's the same washed out shadowy visuals for most areas of the game. I want to clarify that it doesn't look bad, it's just not memorable in a way that makes you think "Oh I got this, I can go back to this key location to progress"

I was sitting around listening to friends talk about the game and one had double jump but no shadow dash, and the other had shadow dash but no double jump... I thought that was neat, but I thought about the circumstances surrounding that, and it's kinda crappy after sitting with it.

Nope. Hollow Knight is wayyyyy too long to be a contender for the Metroidvania genre, even if I like it a lot.

Super Metroid is just that good.

Kokonoe said:

I'd easily say so. Least Undertale fans weren't constantly trying to shit on Earthbound or anything but every Hollow Knight topic I've seen talks about how SotN is overrated or saying Super Metroid is archaic and I'm like...the fuck?

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Saying Hollow knight is better than both isnt shitting on them, as time passes mechanics are refined and devs learn from other games.


I'm actually more annoyed by people with nostalgia googles that think old old games can't be surpassed, ir you think Hollow knight does something bad thats ok, but most argument against it are just "lol you can't beat SOTN/super Metroid, those games are perfect"

So much discussion, debate, and praise for this game. I'm eager to play it. Waiting on a physical release for Switch. Then I just have to find the time...

Black_Red said:

Saying Hollow knight is better than both isnt shitting on them, as time passes mechanics are regiones and devs lean from other games.


I'm actually more annoyed by people with nostalgia googles that think old old games can't be surpassed, ir you think Hollow knight does something bad thats ok, but most argument against it are just "lol you can't beat SOTN/super Metroid, those games are perfect"

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I'm not someone who states SotN will never be surpassed, or Super Metroid. At the same time, I feel like Hollow Knight doesn't even surpass Mega Man ZX 1 as a Metroidvania. I really do not enjoy this release, and that's not because it's a indie game or anything as I consider games just that, games. I just am not a fan of these mechanics and the areas in the game fail to vary enough for my liking.

It's possible to like HK the most and still love super metroid and sotn. I feel most stans for HK feel this way. Has there really been much shitting on super metroid and sotn in this thread?

OrangeNova said:

SoTN and SM don't tell you where to go either, but there's a nice gameplay funnel instead of "Here are 12 things you probably can't do, guess which one you can" (until way later, there are some obtuse items in both games, but nothing progression).

The game does a bad job of making locations memorable to make a main path because it's the same washed out shadowy visuals for most areas of the game. I want to clarify that it doesn't look bad, it's just not memorable in a way that makes you think "Oh I got this, I can go back to this key location to progress"

I was sitting around listening to friends talk about the game and one had double jump but no shadow dash, and the other had shadow dash but no double jump... I thought that was neat, but I thought about the circumstances surrounding that, and it's kinda crappy after sitting with it.

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The game does hint directions, I had tobstart the game from the begginig (going from PC to switch) and I noticed how the signs point you to the first 3 objectives and then some NPC Will give you more directions.

I probably enjoyed HK a bit more because it caters to my personal tastes but I don't really get the necessity of one game sitting on the throne in any particular genre. Even more when said games were released something like 20 years apart.

I mean, Thief is a timeless classic and Dishonored 2 is a fucking masterpiece, and I'm not sure there's an argument to be made as to which one deserves the title of "best first person stealth game of the forever".

It's not even axiom verge good...get real y'all

BDubsLegend said:

I just want to know how a kick-started indie game, not available on most platforms is able to dethrone games with decades worth of legacy? Literally pioneers of the genre. I mean just think about that. That's like saying the League MVP of a sports league is better than an all time great because they had one all star season. This concept just doesn't make sense. I hope Hollow Knight doesn't become the next game with an insufferable fan base because its a pretty good game and can stand on it's own merits without being better than 20 year old established games.

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Too late

OrangeNova said:

SoTN and SM don't tell you where to go either, but there's a nice gameplay funnel instead of "Here are 12 things you probably can't do, guess which one you can" (until way later, there are some obtuse items in both games, but nothing progression).

The game does a bad job of making locations memorable to make a main path because it's the same washed out shadowy visuals for most areas of the game. I want to clarify that it doesn't look bad, it's just not memorable in a way that makes you think "Oh I got this, I can go back to this key location to progress"

I was sitting around listening to friends talk about the game and one had double jump but no shadow dash, and the other had shadow dash but no double jump... I thought that was neat, but I thought about the circumstances surrounding that, and it's kinda crappy after sitting with it.

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I think the openess of the world design was one of the best parts of the game
you go in one direction and find a new area, explore it, access another area below it, repeat the process, and start to get an idea of just how massive the game is. It really caught me surprise, I went in blind back when it originally released

but the complaint I've seen again and again in the OT is that people can't find certain abilities, the double jump in particular, even after dozens of hours, so there's certainly a drawback to that. In my playthrough, I was fortunate enough to walk to the right places in a timely manner so I didn't experience the frustration

Kyra said:

It's possible to like HK the most and still love super metroid and sotn. I feel most stans for HK feel this way. Has there really been much shitting on super metroid and sotn in this thread?

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This is how it is for me, I think those other games are still amazing. Just HK has ended up my favorite.

I'm circling around Hollow Knight and right now I'm mulling about buying it on PC or Switch. is the PC version light on specs required? is the input lag on docked Switch a real issue? is there any word about a PS4 release?

Kokonoe said:

Proving me right about your fanbase.

Unlike you I actually play SotN every year and it's fresh in my mind, when was the last time you booted up SotN? I just got through playing it on stream just a few days ago. Hollow Knight's mechanics are far more stiff and limiting than SotN.

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I just meant your legitimately baffling phrase "crisp in the smoothness". You're projecting hard right now.

NaDannMaGoGo said:

Well, have yet to play SotN but if Circle of the Moon is anything to go by, then yeh, Hollow Knight is leaps and bounds better.

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Not only is this game not made by Iga, and is criticized heavily by Iga, but I hope you know this game is generally panned by Castlevania fans and not considered good. You picked the worst game.

The public doesn't think about Metroid or Castlevania at all anymore.

ViewtifulJC said:

It's not even axiom verge good...get real y'all

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Hollow Knight is leagues better than Axiom Verge, though (and SotN). It's a more refined game in almost any aspect of the term. I'd give SotN the OST and maybe mechanics.

Axiom Verge has nothing on them.

I don't know if the game dethroned Super Metroid, though, but it's quite there.

No.

Kyra said:

It's possible to like HK the most and still love super metroid and sotn. I feel most stans for HK feel this way. Has there really been much shitting on super metroid and sotn in this thread?

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The excitement around Hollow Knight is from people who love the old Metroid and Castlevanias, and are excited to find another game on their level. It's ridiculous to consider that an attack on those games.

BDubsLegend said:

I just want to know how a kick-started indie game, not available on most platforms is able to dethrone games with decades worth of legacy? Literally pioneers of the genre. I mean just think about that. That's like saying the League MVP of a sports league is better than an all time great because they had one all star season. This concept just doesn't make sense. I hope Hollow Knight doesn't become the next game with an insufferable fan base because its a pretty good game and can stand on it's own merits without being better than 20 year old established games.

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Maybe the game is really good.

If the game has a passionate fanbase is it because some unseen force is invading our dreams and making us into mindless HK zombies?

Why do fanbases become things in the first place? Why is HK having so much talk about it so perposterous?

I'm really curious about the undertale fanbase now.

No way.

No. Love the game of course, but it doesn't dethrone Super Metroid in my opinion. A bit of that is of course nostalgia, but the other thing is that it's quicker and I think I'll be much more likely to continue to replay Super Metroid than Hollow Knight because it's the smaller investment...then of course there's the whole randomizer scene with SM too.

soqquatto said:

I'm circling around Hollow Knight and right now I'm mulling about buying it on PC or Switch. is the PC version light on specs required? is the input lag on docked Switch a real issue? is there any word about a PS4 release?

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Yes
No
The Switch version took 18 months to release with them saying "we swear it's almost done" every few months so I really wouldn't push it.

I'm gonna go with no as I don't think the general gaming public has played it. I'm slightly more in-tuned with gaming news than average and I haven't played it yet.

Kyra said:

It's possible to like HK the most and still love super metroid and sotn. I feel most stans for HK feel this way. Has there really been much shitting on super metroid and sotn in this thread?

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There were lots of people calling SotN overrated and saying it aged badly throughout topics on this site (and I believe overrated was thrown around in this topic as well). There were also cases where people were saying it's better than BotW and Mario Odyssey in these HK VS Sotn / SM threads, and I get opinions, but the way people went about expressing that view just felt very bizarre, especially since BotW is considered by most the best Switch game and it felt contrarian.

Imp the Dimp said:

I thought Harmony of Dissonance was worse to be honest. SotN > OoE > AoS

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Don't forget Dawn of Sorrow. For real Dawn of sorrow is amazing and pretty close to Sotn to me.

byDoS said:

Hollow Knight is leagues better than Axiom Verge, though (and SotN). It's a more refined game in almost any aspect of the term. I'd give SotN the OST and maybe mechanics.

Axiom Verge has nothing on them.

I don't know if the game dethroned Super Metroid, though, but it's quite there.

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Nah

Hollow knight is bloated, unattractive, and confuses complexity for depth. I vastly prefer the moment to moment exploration and simple combat of SM, SotN, Axiom Verge to HKs breadth of stuff

Celebrating the game's merits while still being open to discussion about its criticisms is now an "insufferable fan base". Nice.

Kyra said:

It's possible to like HK the most and still love super metroid and sotn. I feel most stans for HK feel this way. Has there really been much shitting on super metroid and sotn in this thread?

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That's me and probably 90% of people who enjoy HK. I love all 3 games and they all have an argument for being the GOAT.

And Dawn of Sorrow is low key better than Symphony imo. Julius mode sends it over the top.

Castlevania and Metroid are the backbone of the whole genre, nothing will "dethrone" them, even if we're getting games that are just as good or better.

Because, to be honest, SOTN and Super Metroid feel archaic today. I can't play them. Maybe SOTN is a little less clunky. So new games may seem better. It's hard to compare.

dosh said:

I probably enjoyed HK a bit more because it caters to my personal tastes but I don't really get the necessity of one game sitting on the throne in any particular genre. Even more when said games were released something like 20 years apart.

I mean, Thief is a timeless classic and Dishonored 2 is a fucking masterpiece, and I'm not sure there's an argument to be made as to which one deserves the title of "best first person stealth game of the forever".

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You're absolutely right. We don't need to talk about how Riddick is better than both of those games. :)

As far as HK vs SoTN and Metroid....I love them all and they all have very different feels.

Kokonoe said:

Proving me right about your fanbase.

Unlike you I actually play SotN every year and it's fresh in my mind, when was the last time you booted up SotN? I just got through playing it on stream just a few days ago. Hollow Knight's mechanics are far more stiff and limiting than SotN.

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I played SotN for the first time 3 months ago and it's no Hollow Knight. The level design takes a significant dive in the upside down castle, the spells are purposefully obtuse just for the gimmick of being able to cast them early on replays, the RPG elements are so bland they may as well not be there, and the constant sword upgrade system means you will inevitably find an OP weapon half-way through the game and then half of all hidden items will be literally worthless to you which makes exploring a lot less rewarding.

That's not to say I didn't love it. It's a brilliant game, and Aria of Sorrow, Dark Souls 1, and Hollow Knight are only the perfect games that they are from standing on the shoulders of giants — but they've definitely learned from the flaws and easily surpassed it.

Tito said:

Good Lord, you people are thick. (You and the other that answered me).

I'm talking about the game being in gamers hand, about the amount of people that played the games.

Hollow Knight will soon be played and enjoyed by more people than SOTN, if sales continue to do well, it could dethrone then as more people play it.

I don't know about Super Metroid, since it's available in Snes Classic, and they've sold a lot of those.

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You may want to fix your attitude

Imp the Dimp said:

I think HK is a more worthwhile purchase than Odyssey and possibly the second best Switch game after BotW. It depends a lot on what you're after in your games though.

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So I probably personally enjoyed Fire Emblem Warriors more than Mario Odyssey, but I wouldn't also be someone who would openly state it's better if you catch my drift. Tastes certainly matter here, and perhaps if I didn't see so much shitting on SotN on HK topics as well as SM shitting I'd be be less bothered by the fanbase claiming this their favorite game as I really don't care what someone's favorite is.

But the shitting on did occur, people claiming these games have bad mechanics probably despite not playing them in god knows when, and at that point it's like...why? Why not just state why you think this game is better without all the shitting on?
I personally am not a HK fan which is made obvious by my posts, but once again I have no qualms with people considering it their favorite, just it really soured me further that in a lot of these topics that was the focus to prove HK was better instead of arguing proper points.

mikehaggar said:

So much discussion, debate, and praise for this game. I'm eager to play it. Waiting on a physical release for Switch. Then I just have to find the time...

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Carve out the time if you have to. This is one of the rare cases of a game that deserves the amount of discussion and praise.

Still, SOTN dethroned is a lot. I don't think I'm there yet, and I LOVED Hollow Knight.