Has Hollow Knight dethroned Super Metroid/SotN in the public eye?

Tarot Deck · Jul 10, 2018

The fact there is even a discussion is an achievement by itself.

Super Metroid is still the template all other games try to emulate and perfect, but of all games I've played, Hollow Knight is by far the closest it reached.

The Albatross · Jul 10, 2018

Surface of Me said:
Looks like something I'd play/watch on New grounds in the year 2006.

No it doesn't.

McScroggz · Jul 10, 2018

There are two types of people, those that judge games based on the relative quality and innovation respective to their era and those that judge games as they are irrespective of the difference in time and technology between games. If you are the former, it's exceedingly hard to hold any game fairly against Super Metroid or SotN, as they are masterpieces of the genre and were at the point where the industry would soon start transitioning to 3D gaming (or during it for SotN) and as such they are almost a swan song. They packaged the best ideas in the genre into rich, fun, fantastic games.

If you are the latter based off of what I've seen and read Hollow Knight almost invariably does fit alongside those landmark games, if not above them. However, it has the benefit of decades of iteration and innovation of the genre and improved technology. Super Metroid is in my top 10 favorite game's of all time but it simply does not play as smoothly as contemporary Metroidvania games.

Rickenslacker · Jul 10, 2018

Surface of Me said:
Looks like something I'd play/watch on New grounds in the year 2006.

No it literally does not you rambling mad man.

Conciliator · Jul 10, 2018

Hollow Knight is amazing but I would never want to erase the classics

Azure Wanderer · Jul 10, 2018

DrArchon said:
Too bad we're never going to get one.

I mean, I guess there's Bloodstained but it's not quite the same.

Never say never! Maybe one day we'll get our "Force Awakens" moment.

Merc · Jul 10, 2018

So strange to me. Ori is the WAY better game than Hollow Knight, yet the latter is more talked about. I bought both. Ori was much more enjoyable from start to finish and some pretty epic moments in Ori with great music.

DrArchon · Jul 10, 2018

Merc said:
So strange to me. Ori is the WAY better game than Hollow Knight, yet the latter is more talked about. I bought both. Ori was much more enjoyable from start to finish and some pretty epic moments in Ori with great music.

For me at least, while the platforming and presentation in Ori were 10/10, the combat was garbage. So that knocks it down a peg or two.

I'm interested in what they do with Ori 2 because it looks like they're improving on that.

spam musubi · Jul 10, 2018

McScroggz said:
There are two types of people, those that judge games based on the relative quality and innovation respective to their era and those that judge games as they are irrespective of the difference in time and technology between games. If you are the former, it's exceedingly hard to hold any game fairly against Super Metroid or SotN, as they are masterpieces of the genre and were at the point where the industry would soon start transitioning to 3D gaming (or during it for SotN) and as such they are almost a swan song. They packaged the best ideas in the genre into rich, fun, fantastic games.

If you are the latter based off of what I've seen and read Hollow Knight almost invariably does fit alongside those landmark games, if not above them. However, it has the benefit of decades of iteration and innovation of the genre and improved technology. Super Metroid is in my top 10 favorite game's of all time but it simply does not play as smoothly as contemporary Metroidvania games.

It's also worth noting that Hollow Knight doesn't really bring anything new to the genre. It doesn't really have any unique movement mechanics, in fact its moveset is rather small. Its level design at its core is pretty simplistic as a result, even though the art and atmosphere make it feel like there's more to the level design than one would think. It's a game more about visual polish. Gameplay-wise, the boss battles are the best thing about it, but the strong input lag make even that kind of disappointing. Platforming-wise, it's eh. Combat-wise, it's decent, but I'd still give the edge to Guacamelee, or some CV games (due to weapon and spell variety), exploration-wise, SM probably has it beat hands down, but the atmosphere still goes a long way (but it also is heavily influenced by Dark Souls in that department)

Jack Remington · Jul 10, 2018

I'm like 5 hours into Hollow Knight, just cleared Greenpath. I like it a lot, but wouldn't put it at all-timer levels just yet. Does it get a lot better?

Hybris · Jul 10, 2018

JaxJag said:
When Hollow Knight came out over a year ago... it's praise wasn't anything near what it's gotten recently? Why has opinion on it changed so hard? Also, Axion Verge is pretty good and easily up there with the best in the genre.

I feel like people were gushing over this since release. It's got the switch audience singing its praises now as well. My opinion of it has only improved with time and a recent replay.

Jack Remington said:
I'm like 5 hours into Hollow Knight, just cleated Greenpath. I like it a lot, but wouldn't put it at all-timer levels just yet. Does it get a lot better?

Yes, you are like 2-3% through the game at this point. It opens fairly slowly because of lack of movement options

Merc · Jul 10, 2018

DrArchon said:
For me at least, while the platforming and presentation in Ori were 10/10, the combat was garbage. So that knocks it down a peg or two.

I'm interested in what they do with Ori 2 because it looks like they're improving on that.

I didn't really think anything about the combat. With the storyline, Ori is vulnerable and an infant who tragically gets abandoned and his goal is to survive and escape a dying world. Ori being so young, and with the storyline, I think the combat fits its purpose well and while there are cool combat abilities, it's not the supreme focus. Finding out how to escape the dying world in a metroidway is

Vire · Jul 10, 2018

What kind of crazy small bubble does the OP live in. Super Metroid and Castlevania are world renown names in the public eye....

Ori is even better than HK.

Switch fans hyperbole sometimes really gets to me. First Celeste and now this.

Thatguy · Jul 10, 2018

skittzo0413 said:
I genuinely think this "fine indie metroidvania" is the second best game I've played in the last 5 years behind BotW, the best indie game I've ever played and probably the best 2D metroidvania I've ever played. Is my opinion just hyperbole to you?

Maybe people are praising it a lot because they really, truly, genuinely love the game?

I'm not trying to minimize any individuals experience. But this thread is taking about the collective consensus. SM and SotN have decades of legendary status. You get to dethrone that after a few months of positive reactions.

Nabs · Jul 10, 2018

It's up there for sure. It's my favorite. I bought it on launch last year, and have replayed it countless times.

JaxJag said:
When Hollow Knight came out over a year ago... it's praise wasn't anything near what it's gotten recently? Why has opinion on it changed so hard? Also, Axion Verge is pretty good and easily up there with the best in the genre.

This is almost a clone of a thread on the old site a few months after release. It was renamed by mods to "Hollow Knight [redacted]" for no reason. The reason you didn't hear more is because it wasn't on console, so most sites ignored it. It still sold a million on PC by word of mouth.

DrArchon · Jul 10, 2018

Merc said:
I didn't really think anything about the combat. With the storyline, Ori is vulnerable and an infant who tragically gets abandoned and his goal is to survive and escape a dying world. Ori being so young, and with the storyline, I think the combat fits its purpose well and while there are cool combat abilities, it's not the supreme focus.

But that's the thing, Ori doesn't feel vulnerable. Ori's OP. The combat's incredibly easy. You just get kinda near and enemy and mash attack and they blow up. The only parts that require skill are reflecting things back.

But yes it clearly wasn't a focus and I appreciate that they did such a good job on the platforming at least.

Merc · Jul 10, 2018

DrArchon said:
But that's the thing, Ori doesn't feel vulnerable. Ori's OP. The combat's incredibly easy. You just get kinda near and enemy and mash attack and they blow up. The only parts that require skill are reflecting things back.

But yes it clearly wasn't a focus and I appreciate that they did such a good job on the platforming at least.

Good point, didn't think of that. There were very few enemies I had trouble defeating or think "how do I beat that?"

Poimandres · Jul 10, 2018

JaxJag said:
When Hollow Knight came out over a year ago... it's praise wasn't anything near what it's gotten recently? Why has opinion on it changed so hard? Also, Axion Verge is pretty good and easily up there with the best in the genre.

Some people were calling it a classic and near the top of the genre almost immediately after launch. There were threads created specifically to praise the game at the old place. The positive WOM led to me picking the game up when it had it's first STEAM sale last year.

It's just reached more people now, and potentially a more receptive audience (Switch owners).

Velikost · Jul 10, 2018

Surface of Me said:
Looks like something I'd play/watch on New grounds in the year 2006.

lmaoooo

JaxJag · Jul 10, 2018

I remember listening to a few podcasts last year who didn't seem super high on it. I believe both Giant Bomb podcasts didn't think it was anything special, so maybe that tainted my view a bit.

Deleted member 249 · Jul 10, 2018

Ceadeus said:
Well I should elaborate I suppose. My English is limited and was typing from my phone..

I never said Hollow Knight was a bad game, far from this. The fact that it was done by only 3 person is incredible, the work behind this is outstanding. I'm just wondering why every Indy who's working on a ''metroidvania'' go for a unic and weird art style, weird characters who is difficult to relate to. Here it is ants, we also have a mexican wrestler? really? Or cave story, some type of? hum, alien with a cap?

I understand that a lot of people actually like these over the top and weird funny character, but I certainly always been more of a traditionnal type of guy who like regular looking knights, mature looking warriors.

But then there is the world art style. I know in Hollow Knight it is hand drawn wich is impressive. But why are the colours so subtile and monochrome, saturated. I think you know what i mean?, feels like it is black and white, meanwhile, there is some sparkle of light blue, light green here and there. Everything looks washed out and depressive. It kind of takes away the drive I would need to complete the game!

I don't think pillars like Metroid and Castlevania are meant to be ''dethroned''. Both of them are still being talked about to this day. Hollow Knight though, won't probably be in a couple of months. Isn't it some kind of a clear answer?

Edit: well I would add that, in the Snes era, video games were ante internet. Devs were not looking for emotional fame. The values were different. Nowaday, as you might not see, like hollow knight, they try to make us feel something with its emotional music and tone. Cute little thing that fights without hope and then you see the light and everything has to mean something. They try so hard to push the feeling of accomplishment. Back then, there was no internet, no fame, no depressive message. Just an awesome experience of discovery and self interpretation.

Okay, thank you, I appreciate the far more detailed write up.
I can't actually answer why every indie game that goes for Metroidvania goes for a visual gimmick, but I do agree with you that it does. Personally, I'm not that bothered, inasmuch as the design and aesthetic doesn't disconnect me from the world- in the case of Hollow Knight specifically, I found the ambience to be incredible, and it pulled me into its world deeper in spite of the bug aesthetic, as well as the generally moody look. That said, I get it- if the whole gimmick is off putting to you, and not to your liking, yeah, it instantly takes you away from the world, and from your own character, and investment in your own world and your own character are basically paramount to be able to enjoy a Metroidvania game fully.
I am not entirely sure about your final point, in context of the discussion, though. For instance, in the SNES era, Super Metroid absolutely tries to make you feel something with its story. The destruction at the space station at the start is supposed to make you feel dread and hopelessness, you are supposed to feel helpless against Mother Brain, you are supposed to lament the baby Metroid's sacrifice at the end. Super Metroid is a master at storytelling, of course, so it can often be hard to perceive what story it is trying to tell because it does so so effortlessly, but it does tell a story, and there are very clear emotional beats it tries to hit. In that regard, I don't know that I would agree with you that Hollow Knight is any different.

Anyway, thanks once again for the far more detailed write up. I'm sorry for my earlier hostility, there's just so much shitposting that often happens in these threads I wasn't sure that your post wasn't meant to be one of those.

BlacJack · Jul 10, 2018

AzureFlame said:
Not with the artstyle and music.

Hollow Knight is 100% better in both of these as far as I'm concerned.

And now days, "Public eye" doesn't even really know much about Metroid. It doesn't hold that much mindshare unless you're a "gamer."

low-G said:
Ask this question again in 10 years, but I highly suspect not.

Not in my eyes.

Eh. If Metroid only released one game, it wouldn't even be mentioned in this conversation. Hollow Knight will most likely not get a sequel, more likely the devs will move on to something else, which is a shame, but also exciting.

Honestly, when viewed like this it's sort of silly. I personally think Hollow Knight is FAAAAR better than the first Metroid. Metroid had the backing of Nintendo and it was pushed to sell consoles. The situations are so damn different it's sort of hard to compare.

But judging them on their own merits. I too don't think it's close. But I'm on the other side.

lambdaupsilon · Jul 10, 2018

As others have said in the thread: obviously not in the public eye, given the way Gamers™ are with their sacred cows.

For me, though? I... maybe. I've been a Metroid fan since I was really young, but I never really jibed with Super. Something about its running and jumping physics just always felt sluggish to me, especially relative to Zero Mission and Fusion. Prime and Echoes are obviously the top of the genre, but I don't think it's good to compare them directly to 2D platformers.
Igavanias, however, perplex me. I have yet to play SotN, but common sentiment seems to be that Aria of Sorrow is as good or better than it? I have played that one, and it's... I don't know, I was just kind of lukewarm on it. The level design felt largely like hallways (or hallways stacked on top of one another) with enemies that... didn't really do a whole lot. The mobility upgrades were alright but nothing really stands out in my mind beyond the bat transformation, and the random drop system of souls isn't one I particularly liked.

I'm not quite sure that Hollow Knight beats my favorite Metroid games, but when playing it I did distinctly feel that it had surpassed several I don't hold as dear - which, in my case, does include Super.

(As an aside, I haven't played any other indie Metroidvanias that especially resonated with me. Environmental Station Alpha was too difficult for my tastes, Guacamelee's instant kills were an immediate turnoff, Axiom Verge's level design was ehh and none of the guns felt particularly meaningful, and La-Mulana... is La-Mulana - I appreciate it for what it is, but fuck if I'm gonna play through it without a guide.
I guess Aquaria's the one that stands out most in my mind? It's mainly held back by its general jank, which is understandable as it came out just around the time modern indie games started really becoming a Thing.)

(Also, Christ, Cave Story isn't a Metroidvania. Or a Metroid-like, even, if you're that kind of pedant.)

Deleted member 249 · Jul 10, 2018

Vire said:
What kind of crazy small bubble does the OP live in. Super Metroid and Castlevania are world renown names in the public eye....

Ori is even better than HK.

Switch fans hyperbole sometimes really gets to me. First Celeste and now this.

Hollow Knight has been praised at this level since before it was on Switch, and Celeste is a multiplat. Don't bring that console wars bullshit into this with that "Switch fans" nonsense.

DR2K · Jul 10, 2018

Will Hollow Knight even be mentioned in 20 years?

Hilarious_Bearious · Jul 10, 2018

Hmm now I'm confused...

I was never big on Metroid or Castlevania. They're excellent games and I played them as a kid, but they're not my favourite thing in the world. But I love Ori and Wonderboy: The Dragon's Trap (a Metroidvania-lite as some people call it), and Hollow Knight was going to be my next Switch purchase after Octopath, but now I'm unsure if I'll like it.

So many conflicting opinions.

Hu3 · Jul 10, 2018

DR2K said:
Will Hollow Knight even be mentioned in 20 years?

I dont believe it will.

Hilarious_Bearious said:
Hmm now I'm confused...

I was never big on Metroid or Castlevania. They're excellent games and I played them as a kid, but they're not my favourite thing in the world. But I love Ori and Wonderboy: The Dragon's Trap (a Metroidvania-lite as some people call it), and Hollow Knight was going to be my next Switch purchase after Octopath, but now I'm unsure if I'll like it.

So many conflicting opinions.

dont get confused here the game its excelent hollow knight its a great game on its own. play it its a great experience.

mentallyinept · Jul 10, 2018

I'm totally on board with Hollow Knight being this generations litmus test for good metroidvania/action platformer; it deserves it.

Putting it above Super Metroid or Symphony of the Night? I don't think so.

That would be like blowing up Washington and Jeffersons faces off of Mount Rushmore because a new President came around that did really great stuff.

Xiaomi · Jul 10, 2018

Hilarious_Bearious said:
Hmm now I'm confused...

I was never big on Metroid or Castlevania. They're excellent games and I played them as a kid, but they're not my favourite thing in the world. But I love Ori and Wonderboy: The Dragon's Trap (a Metroidvania-lite as some people call it), and Hollow Knight was going to be my next Switch purchase after Octopath, but now I'm unsure if I'll like it.

So many conflicting opinions.

If it means anything to you, I don't normally like indie Metroidvanias. Hollow Knight is worth seeing for its atmosphere and combat, and has polished both extremely well.

PaulloDEC · Jul 10, 2018

DR2K said:
Will Hollow Knight even be mentioned in 20 years?

In as much as any games from this time period will be mentioned, absolutely.

As much as Super Metroid or SotN? Probably not, but I'd argue that's more a result of Hollow Knight not being a major AAA release on a market-leading console.

cgatto · Jul 10, 2018

I dig Hollow Knight, a lot. It's one of the best in recent memory, for sure, but better than Super Metroid? I don't think I would say say.

Ceadeus · Jul 10, 2018

Phantom Thief said:
Okay, thank you, I appreciate the far more detailed write up.
I can't actually answer why every indie game that goes for Metroidvania goes for a visual gimmick, but I do agree with you that it does. Personally, I'm not that bothered, inasmuch as the design and aesthetic doesn't disconnect me from the world- in the case of Hollow Knight specifically, I found the ambience to be incredible, and it pulled me into its world deeper in spite of the bug aesthetic, as well as the generally moody look. That said, I get it- if the whole gimmick is off putting to you, and not to your liking, yeah, it instantly takes you away from the world, and from your own character, and investment in your own world and your own character are basically paramount to be able to enjoy a Metroidvania game fully.
I am not entirely sure about your final point, in context of the discussion, though. For instance, in the SNES era, Super Metroid absolutely tries to make you feel something with its story. The destruction at the space station at the start is supposed to make you feel dread and hopelessness, you are supposed to feel helpless against Mother Brain, you are supposed to lament the baby Metroid's sacrifice at the end. Super Metroid is a master at storytelling, of course, so it can often be hard to perceive what story it is trying to tell because it does so so effortlessly, but it does tell a story, and there are very clear emotional beats it tries to hit. In that regard, I don't know that I would agree with you that Hollow Knight is any different.

Anyway, thanks once again for the far more detailed write up. I'm sorry for my earlier hostility, there's just so much shitposting that often happens in these threads I wasn't sure that your post wasn't meant to be one of those.

I thank you too for taking the time to answer. I don't think I could go farther by explaining how legit, at the time, super metroid was introducing us an heroic adventure without any glipse of exagerating firework. The conclusion sure was something we've never seen in a video game. But it is important to take the time to think about the whole playthrough of the game. The environment diversity is incredible, the always changing tone of the levels and music.

For the final point you are talking about, I'm simply believing that the video game structure as a whole, have changed a lot for the worst since the internet community is a thing. I feel that devs nowaday are looking for having the best reputation. Feels like greed, pushing too hard and it shows.

From here, I've been trying to write a longer post but I'm still thinking about what to write too much, it is difficult to explain clearly. Sorry about it. Maybe I could simply say that video game back then were made in a more noble way than todays effort.

KarmaCow · Jul 10, 2018

FormatCompatible said:
I don't know about that honestly, that game together with SotN are still heavily cited basically everywhere as the pinnacle of this particular genre, even if someone didn't necessarily played those two they would know them just by how much people talk about them still. All of that is not to say that HK isn't a great game because it is, but I would hazard a guess that their brand is more recognizable.

I doubt the general public is clued into the Metroidvania genre itself, much less the forebearers that defined it to hold any real opinion about them.

(Though I think Hollow Knight is better than SotN. Iga added a bunch of fluff to the Metroid-like genre and Team Cherry pared it back down. I still prefer Super Metroid for its laser focus but I would love if Metroidvanias looked to HK as an example of what to emulate over SotN)

Kuga · Jul 10, 2018

A great game? Yes. "Dethroned" SM? Heck no.

Stealth X Hawk · Jul 10, 2018

AzureFlame said:
Not with the artstyle and music.

Really? What's wrong with the art style

Deleted member 2317 · Jul 10, 2018

sambills said:
lol fuckin no

4859 · Jul 10, 2018

Sargerus said:
Yes. SOTN is overrated.

Well, true...

But that tends to happen when something becomes a bit of an icon.

But even taking that into account...

Yeah, this topic just isn't a thing.

No.

Zen Hero · Jul 10, 2018

It has definitely become my favorite Metroidvania. Super Metroid was never my favorite, though I do like it.

What I love about Hollow Knight is just that it's so big. So many locations, characters, enemies, items, lore... It's such a rich world that you can really fall in love with. For me, that's what elevates it above other Metroidvanias.

Voxl · Jul 10, 2018

It's not as influential so the chances of it passing super metroid are very slim.

D.Lo · Jul 10, 2018

BlacJack said:
Eh. If Metroid only released one game, it wouldn't even be mentioned in this conversation. Hollow Knight will most likely not get a sequel, more likely the devs will move on to something else, which is a shame, but also exciting.

Honestly, when viewed like this it's sort of silly. I personally think Hollow Knight is FAAAAR better than the first Metroid. Metroid had the backing of Nintendo and it was pushed to sell consoles. The situations are so damn different it's sort of hard to compare.

Haha I have no idea what you're saying here.

Metroid isn't the game that defines the genre, Super Metroid is. Metroid was just a proto-Super Metroid. SM's map and progression design is what was ripped off in SoTN and later Castlevanias (even the map colours FFS lol).

Metroid is shorthand for 'Super Metroid' in the case of the genre. SoTN and Hollow Knight are both Super Metroid clones/alikes. It's why naming the genre anything except Metroid-alikes is dumb because Super Metroid alone is the defining template.

Hu3 · Jul 10, 2018

D.Lo said:
Haha I have no idea what you're saying here.

Metroid isn't the game that defines the genre, Super Metroid is. Metroid was just a proto-Super Metroid. SM's map and progression design is what was ripped off in SoTN and later Castlevanias (even the map colours FFS lol).

Metroid is shorthand for 'Super Metroid' in the case of the genre. SoTN and Hollow Knight are both Super Metroid clones/alikes. It's why naming the genre anything except Metroid-alikes is dumb because Super Metroid alone is the defining template.

let me see..
metroid original release date :1986

castlevania: 1986 but castlevania is a clone?, enlighten me here please.

Deleted member 3465 · Jul 10, 2018

I paid very little attention during the months after Hollow Knight's initial release, but the praise this game has gotten during the last few weeks seems insane in comparison. Not saying it's a bad thing.. I'm glad Switch fans are helping to spread the word, the game definitely deserves it.. We've been saying it's amazing for months now. HK has gotta be my favourite game out of the last few years and definitely my favourite of the genre. I really fell in love with the world they created. I absolutely love the lore, the setting, the music, the sound effects and just how everything comes together. Very few games manage to pull off being adorable, challenging and bleak all at the same time, but this game does it pretty effortlessly. They absolutely nailed the feel of the game more-so than a lot of games I've played in recent memory. I just hope the recent love for the game doesn't cause people to lash out against it later on. I don't see why Metroid/SoTN and HK can't all co-exist. They're all great series that all deserve a lot more imo.

FormatCompatible · Jul 10, 2018

KarmaCow said:
I doubt the general public is clued into the Metroidvania genre itself, much less the forebearers that defined it to hold any real opinion about them.

(Though I think Hollow Knight is better than SotN. Iga added a bunch of fluff to the Metroid-like genre and Team Cherry pared it back down. I still prefer Super Metroid for its laser focus but I would love if Metroidvanias looked to HK as an example of what to emulate over SotN)

Obviously it's not a very popular genre, but if we go by what the op is talking about, if the question is has HK has ''dethroned'' SotN and SM and is the more popular/well known game and is considered the best game in the general public's opinion (by general public I'm assuming it's people that are actually aware of the genre in the first place) I would say no. It's a great game and certainly deserves the praise though.

D.Lo · Jul 10, 2018

Hu3 said:
let me see..
metroid original release date :1986

castlevania: 1986 but castlevania is a clone?, enlighten me here please.

Maybe look this up a bit first...

Symphony of the Night is from 1997. Three years after Super Metroid and it is a clear Super Metroid clone. It takes Super Metroid's map design and progression design and clones them exactly, even using basically the exact same map colours (despite Igarashi's farcical claims it was based on Zelda not Metroid). It adds its own things (RPG elements) but the core progression and map is a straight clone.

The original action platformer Castlevania is irrelevant. The original Metroid is only relevant insomuch as it was a proto-Super Metroid.

Super Metroid, in 1994, is the game that crystallised the design in the way everyone has followed since, including all subsequent Metroid games (2D or 3D).

Now, Link to the Past and especially Link's Awakening are a very similar template, just with the addition of dungeons and an overhead view. So we typically think of Super Metroid clones as 2D side scrolling platformers as well as using the Zelda/Metroid item based map-opening progression system.

Richter1887 · Jul 11, 2018

Symphony of The Night is still king.

-The way Alucard runs
-The core gameplay
-The music
-The artstyle

All of these are still king.

Black_Red · Jul 11, 2018

Thatguy said:
I'm not trying to minimize any individuals experience. But this thread is taking about the collective consensus. SM and SotN have decades of legendary status. You get to dethrone that after a few months of positive reactions.

But decades of legendary status are meaningless if you're talking about the new standar.

I think Hollow Knight plays way better than Super Metroid offering a similar level design but much much better movement and combat. Havent played Sotn for more than 10 minutes, but that was because it plays like a NES platformer (in the MC movement) and as a platformer fan that is irritating to me.

I get it, those games did set a high bar some years ago, but I think Hollow knight sets the bar higher and should be the new game in the genre to compare, nostalgia or how innovative the game was when it realeased shouldnt matter.

SiG · Jul 11, 2018

From what I understand, SoTN was pretty easy, especially if you grinded your levels up. No such opportunity presents itself in Hollow Knight, unless you count getting upgrades and "life meter" expansions a thing. Otherwise it comes down to memorizing the tells of each boss and learning how to dodge them.

In a way, it reminds me of Order of Ecclesia's difficulty, but slightly more accessible. Don't expect to cheese your way out of boss fights, but trying combinations of different charms could help.

XaviConcept · Jul 11, 2018

Hard to say "public eye" when its such a niche title. Its really, really good but may be too hard for your average non game-forum-visiting player. Even in the visual, which I love, Metroid and Castlevania have visual hooks thats are much more mainstream friendly.

However, a bit of hyperbole in this case is good because it will lead more people to try the game.

ryechu · Jul 11, 2018

Am I to believe that all these people have played HK when so many haven't posted even once in any of the HK threads?

Black_Red · Jul 11, 2018

SmileROM said:
I don't see why Metroid/SoTN and HK can't all co-exist. They're all great series that all deserve a lot more imo.

I think that because the new games have all better movement options that Metroid/Sotn they feel like on a different level. If you think the new Metroidvanias are on the same level than the old ones, its because you're not adding nostalgia/innovation to your argument, and in that case the old games pale agaisnt the new ones.

ryechu said:
Am I to believe that all these people have played HK when so many haven't posted even once in any of the HK threads?

Yes?. I have played a lot of games without posting on their respective threads.

Has Hollow Knight dethroned Super Metroid/SotN in the public eye?

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