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NeonZ

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 28, 2017
9,372
I've said it before, but I'm still not convinced that Alph was meant to be clone at one point instead of just always having been planned as a model swap. The phrase used in the balance checklist that Source Gaming translated (モデル替え/"model swap") could potentially apply to either a separate clone fighter or just a model swap for the same fighter. The fact that the term for normal palette swaps (カラーバリエーション/"color variation") wasn't used for Alph makes sense in either situation, because Alph isn't a normal palette swap, he's a complete model swap. Also, on the translated balance checklist, Alph is only mentioned for the modeling team, but if there were plans for him to be a separate clone fighter then he'd require work from the animation and game design teams as well for his slight differences, so why is there no mention of that?

It'd be nice to see the original Japanese balance checklist, but Source Gaming haven't provided it, and I haven't been able to find it elsewhere either. Knowing whether or not Sakurai has ever referred to other literal model swaps like the Koopalings and such as "model swaps" instead of "color variations" would also help clarify the situation, but I haven't seen any examples of Sakurai speaking about those with specific terminology, unfortunately.

At the very least, new articles reporting on Bowser Jr's official unveiling used the term "color variations" for the Koopalings.

https://www.inside-games.jp/article/2014/10/24/81836.html

Same goes to fan wikis. I can't find anything directly from Nintendo or Sakurai himself, but the usage seems very spread for the Japanese side.
 

HibbySloth

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,153
Smashboards is doing these charts right now, so I thought it'd be fun to bring mine over and see if other people wanted to do them too.

Nice. Here's one I did a few days ago.

cLD51yN.jpg
 

Deleted member 41183

User requested account closure
Banned
Mar 18, 2018
1,882
Alph being 'boring' shouldn't lock him out from getting the respect even Dark Pit got in not a Final Smash that didn't make sense for his character. Maybe having to make the game run on a potato last time affected him getting his own slot, but there's no excuse now for Ultimate. He's also the star of EAD/EPD's first 3D adventure game in HD.

In a game like Ultimate that does crazy stupid things like a glowing Master Sword against villains, there's no excuse for such poor representation of a character.

EDIT: This feels like a bad-faith argument from people who didn't actually play Pikmin 3, like the people who say that Ribbon Girl should be a Spring Man echo clearly never actually played ARMS.
 

Tye

Member
Oct 27, 2017
832
At the very least, new articles reporting on Bowser Jr's official unveiling used the term "color variations" for the Koopalings.

https://www.inside-games.jp/article/2014/10/24/81836.html

Same goes to fan wikis. I can't find anything directly from Nintendo or Sakurai himself, but the usage seems very spread for the Japanese side.
I wouldn't consider news articles or fan wikis as official word at all, but the claim very well could be correct, I'll admit. I just don't like the idea of stating with 100% certainty that Alph was originally planned as a clone/echo fighter, because it doesn't seem to be 100% clear and there are some odd details that may suggest otherwise.
 

Deleted member 2793

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
15,368
I didn't even bother adding non-gaming characters to my least wanted because I don't even consider them real choices
 

Wamb0wneD

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
18,735
Amaterasu would be the best pick. Y'all trippin'.
Best moveset
Best stage potential
Best music

You gotta see the light and accept the sun goddess.
 

BGBW

Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,273
Playing online is a whole different situation.

Miis just aren't really a big deal on the Switch, and people are going to want options to use them in Smash without caring about making Miis.
Based on what? Based on pretty much 100% use cases of Miis, people like to make their own Miis. I have not seen anyone stick to the Guests.
Wii Sports - check that box
Wii Music - check that box
Tomodachi Life - check that box
Mario Karts - check that box
Miitomo - check that box
Smash Bros for 3DS and Wii U - check that box

Oh, and remember, before you try to bring Smash tournaments into this, I reject all their opinions 100%.

Everyone Else >>> Karate Joe
And that's why your opinions will always be J-tier.
 

Hailinel

Shamed a mod for a tag
Member
Oct 27, 2017
35,527
Imagine the state of this thread if no new characters are announced by December 1st. Just imagine that last week until release.
 

Birdie

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
26,289
So...did Sakurai really not know James Bond wasn't a gaming original character when he considered him for Melee, or did he just not have his "no outside gaming character" rule at that point?
 

memoryman3

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
4,146
To be fair, the characters that eventually became Echoes were originally intended to be model swaps as well, it's just that by changing an extremely subtle element they had to be spun off. The question worth asking is how they decided on the Echoes going into this game and if it was again a matter of them spinning off alternate costumes or them actually deciding them from the onset. Daisy might have actually been a costume at one point in development until they decided on the Echo label.

Daisy was always planned to be seperate from Peach. Otherwise that Woolly World amiibo datamine thing wouldn't have had that Daisy amiibo entry.
 

ned_ballad

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
48,220
Rochester, New York
Based on what? Based on pretty much 100% use cases of Miis, people like to make their own Miis. I have not seen anyone stick to the Guests.
Wii Sports - check that box
Wii Music - check that box
Tomodachi Life - check that box
Mario Karts - check that box
Miitomo - check that box
Smash Bros for 3DS and Wii U - check that box

Oh, and remember, before you try to bring Smash tournaments into this, I reject all their opinions 100%.
Smash Ultimate is the first non-port game on the Switch to even support Miis and the Switch doesn't require you to make a Mii. So either they make a default, or a bunch of people are making a guest Mii anyway because they literally do not have any others on the console.

Daisy was always planned to be seperate from Peach. Otherwise that Woolly World amiibo datamine thing wouldn't have had that Daisy amiibo entry.
If you truly believe this, then it's impossible for there to be 0 more characters, because your findings also showed a Waddle Dee amiibo entry.
 

Hailinel

Shamed a mod for a tag
Member
Oct 27, 2017
35,527
Based on what? Based on pretty much 100% use cases of Miis, people like to make their own Miis. I have not seen anyone stick to the Guests.
Wii Sports - check that box
Wii Music - check that box
Tomodachi Life - check that box
Mario Karts - check that box
Miitomo - check that box
Smash Bros for 3DS and Wii U - check that box

Oh, and remember, before you try to bring Smash tournaments into this, I reject all their opinions 100%.


And that's why your opinions will always be J-tier.
There aren't that many games on the Switch that actively use Miis, even as an option, though. I still haven't even created one after over a year of owning a Switch.
 

Deleted member 2793

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
15,368
So...did Sakurai really not know James Bond wasn't a gaming original character when he considered him for Melee, or did he just not have his "no outside gaming character" rule at that point?
I don't know why people say he was considered. This is his comment about James Bond

James Bond: "Showing realistic guns = no good! Character uses an actor's likeness = no good! Since the original game is based on a movie, getting those rights = no good! He's Rare's property = no good! Blocked on all fronts."

Why the Capcom hate?
They used to be my favorite third party company and I don't think I like any single of their games and company philosophy now. They just left a bad taste in my mouth. Also, they already have 2 characters and I think it's enough.
 

salromano

Mr. Gematsu
Verified
Oct 25, 2017
2,924
I emailed him after the game came out and he told me that his source saw 3D models for the Chorus Kids. He specified that they were 3D and not flat.

Not going to call you a liar quite yet, because I legitimately don't remember this email or ever even being told about the existence of 3D models. I looked back on my emails, including those from my source, and found no mention, nor did I find any correspondence with yourself. Can you PM me proof that I spoke with you?
 

NotLiquid

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
34,755
Daisy was always planned to be seperate from Peach. Otherwise that Woolly World amiibo datamine thing wouldn't have had that Daisy amiibo entry.
This is irrelevant given that Nintendo has made "Player 2" Amiibo for Smash. Even if your datamining somehow hinted at Smash, if Daisy was planned as an alternate costume, there's a decent chance she'd still get her own Amiibo.
 

Clov

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,929
Smash Ultimate is the first non-port game on the Switch to even support Miis and the Switch doesn't require you to make a Mii. So either they make a default, or a bunch of people are making a guest Mii anyway because they literally do not have any others on the console.


If you truly believe this, then it's impossible for there to be 0 more characters, because your findings also showed a Waddle Dee amiibo entry.

Sorry, but Waddle Dee doesn't count, for reasons! Important ones, probably.
 

NeonZ

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 28, 2017
9,372
I wouldn't consider news articles or fan wikis as official word at all, but the claim very well could be correct, I'll admit. I just don't like the idea of stating with 100% certainty that Alph was originally planned as a clone/echo fighter, because it doesn't seem to be 100% clear and there are some odd details that may suggest otherwise.

My point in bringing those up is more regarding the usage of the terminology. The doubts you mention regarding it only exist due to the actual meaning of the words in English, but they don't seem to be confusing for Japanese speakers.
 
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ned_ballad

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
48,220
Rochester, New York
I feel obligated to post every fake leak that mentions Metal Mario
While the roster may have been supposedly decided in 2015, things change over development. Someone from within Bamco has come forward to me with info on characters being put into the game, some I think most of you are going to find odd. The Smash Ballot wasn't completely for nothing though, as it determined which characters ultimately got into the game.

The characters are: Metal Mario, Banjo-Kazooie, Mega Charizard X/Y (Echo), K.Rool, Dark Samus (echo), Decidueye, and Issac.

First things first, Simon IS in the game, but he's an assist trophy. He was a playable character in the planning stages, but the team dropped him down to an AT.

Banjo wasn't even a thought until 2016, which is when he was added due to sheer requests for him, much like Ridley. The Wonderwing isn't his final smash, and his up b is nothing anyone would expect.

K.Rool was added thanks to overall global requests and thanks to the Smash Ballot.

Decidueye was picked over Sceptile due to it being the most recent grass Pokemon starter. His Final Smash is Sinister Arrow Raid from Sun and Moon. Speaking of, Mega Charizard is in the game due to Charizard mains in Smash 4. It is the only PKMN Trainer Pokemon to get this honor, and yes, you can play as Y version and it too has 4 colors.

Issac was added to the game early on thanks in part to fan requests. It should be noted Issac's green hands are nowhere in his moveset.

Dark Samus was added as a more offensive version of Samus. Her F air has only one hit box for example and it does kill at low percents. Her Final Smash however, turns her into Metroid Prime.

Metal Mario is actually a throw back to Super Smash Bros 64, complete with his stage remade in Smash Ultimate. His side B is a diving tackle from Mario 64 and his down B is Mario Tornado. Metal Mario also has his step sound effect from 64 and falls like Fox did in Melee, but won't die at 260+ percents like he did in 64. Ask me anything else you would like to know, especially DLC.

I'm pretty sure that is literally what I've posted about Metal Mario's moveset in the past.

The idea that Isaac wouldn't use his main gimmick in his moveset is hilarious. Sakurai would take an earth elemental psychic kid and reduce him to a sword fighter lol
 

BGBW

Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,273
Smash Ultimate is the first non-port game on the Switch to even support Miis and the Switch doesn't require you to make a Mii. So either they make a default, or a bunch of people are making a guest Mii anyway because they literally do not have any others on the console.
Mario Kart 8 DX already solved this problem - if you don't have a Mii on the system it asks you to make one.

When I refer to Guest Mii, I mean the Guest A - F Miis that Nintendo often provides in games, not something the user makes.
 

Coricus

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,537
Smashboards is doing these charts right now, so I thought it'd be fun to bring mine over and see if other people wanted to do them too.

smashultimate-png.152428


Here's the blank template if you want to do your own chart as well:

Dg5V2zDW0AACDBG.jpg
tumblr_pbo8oyuYwx1xuvfgqo1_540.jpg


I feel like it's a bit early for me to actually settle on a chart like this since obviously upon actually trying newcomers and modified veterans my tastes will likely shift accordingly, but uh

meh.

Super Smash Bros Ultimeh.
 

r_n

Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,534
I've said it before, but I'm still not convinced that Alph was meant to be clone at one point instead of just always having been planned as a model swap. The phrase used in the balance checklist that Source Gaming translated (モデル替え/"model swap") could potentially apply to either a separate clone fighter or just a model swap for the same fighter. The fact that the term for normal palette swaps (カラーバリエーション/"color variation") wasn't used for Alph makes sense in either situation, because Alph isn't a normal palette swap, he's a complete model swap. Also, on the translated balance checklist, Alph is only mentioned for the modeling team, but if there were plans for him to be a separate clone fighter then he'd require work from the animation and game design teams as well for his slight differences, so why is there no mention of that?

It'd be nice to see the original Japanese balance checklist, but Source Gaming haven't provided it, and I haven't been able to find it elsewhere either. Knowing whether or not Sakurai has ever referred to other literal model swaps like the Koopalings and such as "model swaps" instead of "color variations" would also help clarify the situation, but I haven't seen any examples of Sakurai speaking about those with specific terminology, unfortunately.
Sakurai has used the term "model swap characters" to refer to clones before
On Melee's website he uses it in the same way we refer to "clones" https://sourcegaming.info/2015/09/24/meleepichusite/
[1] A more proper translation for clone characters would be "model swap characters". The term "clone" was never officially used in Smash.

He uses the same terminology in his column when very specifically talking about Smash 4 Dr. Mario, Lucina & Dark Pit https://sourcegaming.info/2015/07/09/i-answer-some-questions-sakurai-famitsu-column-vol-461-464/

Please note with this one that he differentiates between "model swap/clone" and "alternates"
 

Deleted member 42221

User requested account closure
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Apr 16, 2018
2,749
I feel obligated to post every fake leak that mentions Metal Mario


I'm pretty sure that is literally what I've posted about Metal Mario's moveset in the past.

The idea that Isaac wouldn't use his main gimmick in his moveset is hilarious. Sakurai would take an earth elemental psychic kid and reduce him to a sword fighter lol
Simon Belmont as an assist only is also laughable. That may take the cake for "worst smash ultimate leak"
 

Durden

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
12,511
Main : Snake

Secondaries : Ridley, Inkling, Captain Falcon, Wolf, Ryu

Most wanted Newcomers : K. Rool > Sami/Andy (Or any notable Advanced Wars rep) > Banjo-Kazooie > Dark Samus (echo) > Mach Rider (Excitebiker would suffice) > Wonder Red

Least wanted Newcomers : Goku (I say that as a massive DB fan) > Magnus (KI:U)> Another Fire Emblem Rep > Most other 3rd party reps (Shadow, Sora, Heihachi, ect I could deal with Simon but ehhh, game's gettin too crowded with them) > Geno (yes I know he's 3rd party but he deserves a special mention).

Off the top of my head.
 

stan423321

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,676
So...did Sakurai really not know James Bond wasn't a gaming original character when he considered him for Melee, or did he just not have his "no outside gaming character" rule at that point?
I think it was a regular case of mind drift.

If the only statement you can formulate after hearing "how would Spider-Man work in Smash" is "this simply won't happen", I doubt we're part of the same species.
 

Deleted member 2793

User requested account closure
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Oct 25, 2017
15,368
Most wanted Newcomers : K. Rool > Sami/Andy (Or any notable Advanced Wars rep) > Banjo-Kazooie > Dark Samus (echo) > Mach Rider (Excitebiker would suffice) > Wonder Red
A bit sad how Wars gets almost no support. I think it just needs a new game to get in for sure, the series is pretty long lived and has lots of potential for Smash.
 

Ryce

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,281
I PMed him, but I wouldn't publicly lie about emailing a member of this site when he could just pop in and shut me down. Chorus Kids are my most wanted newcomer, so I remember the exchange very clearly: I asked if he knew whether or not the Chorus Kids were "flat" and he told me they were 3D.

Edit: Oh shit. I found the email, and it was from... spainkiller, that liar I had completely forgotten about. I must have conflated the two usernames in my head ("salromano"/"spainkiller") at some point over the past three years. Just ignore that post about the Chorus Kids.
 
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Hailinel

Shamed a mod for a tag
Member
Oct 27, 2017
35,527
They should put James Bond in the game, but get around the rights issues by making his head a giant question mark and calling him TOP SECRET.
 
Oct 27, 2017
1,609
North Carolina
Main: Doctor Mario (I only used Mario because of his f-air, but Doc has a stomp now so I can switch)
Secondary: Mario, Dark Pit, Fox, Marth, Ike
Most Wanted Newcomers: Isaac, Incineroar
Least Wanted Newcomers: None, I don't dislike anything enough to not want it represented in Smash.
 

Zarzolaon

Member
Mar 16, 2018
2,282
OH
Im betting it has to do with Japan not having the ironic, meme fueled "love" of Waluigi.

Remember, very few, maybe even none, people love waluigi unironically.
I like Waluigi for Waluigi. Ever since Mario Kart DS, even more with Mario Kart Wii, I don't know when the memes really kicked in. He and Rosalina are my main picks for MK.

The biggest reason I think a lot of us (even me) might be lowballing echoes a bit is because I've noticed that Sakurai really puts a lot of emphasis on "value" with his games. They're packed full of so much content that 60 dollars for them is a pittance compared to how much stuff they have in them. And that makes me think we'll have quite a lot of echoes, because he wants to point to the roster and note how it has 80+ fighters and is the best value for a fighting game ever.

And it's not like there's a lack of pulls for echoes. I think people are quick to write off characters like Louie, Ninten, Dry Bowser, the piles of potential Pokemon echoes, Black Shadow, etc. There's clearly enough there that we can go well beyond just Daisy, Dark Samus and Shadow, if Sakurai really wanted to.

In Melee, we had characters added just because they conveniently fit other characters' bodies. Relevancy, popularity, none of that mattered for Doc or Roy. And while Ganondorf might have been popular, relevant and requested, the primary reason he got in was because he fit another character's animations and they had a Melee-esque style model laying around to use. So Sakurai might look at a random like Dry Bowser and go "yea, he's sorta popular, the final boss of a few recent games, but most importantly he works really well with Bowser's model, so let's add him"

Or we get 2 more echoes. It's all unknown at this point, but I don't think we should quickly write off that echoes are just something we'll get a couple more of and that's it. Or that the characters need to actually be important enough to get into Smash on their own merits beyond "they fit this character's model"
I also think we'll get several, yet not enough to surpass the amount of unique newcomers. Perhaps 6 of each, not counting DLC.
 

Durden

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
12,511
A bit sad how Wars gets almost no support. I think it just needs a new game to get in for sure, the series is pretty long lived and has lots of potential for Smash.

Especially considering IS other series, Fire Emblem, gets arguably way too much love in Smash. How you gonna put in 6 FE characters (and we may end up with 7), and not a single one to the series that paved the way for FE? I get that a moveset for them might not be as straightforward as a FE character's but comon. That's not an excuse anymore.
 

MondoMega

One Winged Slayer
Member
Jan 10, 2018
47,474
Australia
Has anyone commented on the Sakurai interview posted in the Switch news feed today? Is it new or just a repost of an interview from some somewhere else? Regardless, it's pretty interesting to see his reasons for adding/altering mechanics.

Also his favourite taunt is Ridley's down taunt (the one where he stands up straight) which is great.
 

ned_ballad

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
48,220
Rochester, New York
Has anyone commented on the Sakurai interview posted in the Switch news feed today? Is it new or just a repost of an interview from some somewhere else? Regardless, it's pretty interesting to see his reasons for adding/altering mechanics.

Also his favourite taunt is Ridley's down taunt (the one where he stands up straight) which is great.
Nope, haven't heard that Ridley stuff before
 
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