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aerie

wonky
Administrator
Oct 25, 2017
8,036
This is a bad post



and this is a good one.
Theres merit to both of those posts, with points being debatable in both.

I can't shake the feeling that with TLJ, even with the flaws in the second post you've quoted, its still a strong Star Wars film in many areas and it seems we're holding it to different standards than the rest of the franchise, or we've built the IP into somethings its not.
 
Last edited:

Deleted member 2809

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
25,478
I love the "darth emo" jabs from people who probably praise the whiny dumb fuck that Lucas made Anaking to be in the prequels
 

Gifmaker

Banned
Oct 29, 2017
964
I think this movie has numerous obvious flaws and the criticism doesn't ever have to go to misogyny, complaining about Luke or whatever. I think it has some amazing moments, which are fun and a joy to watch, and some terrible things that, unfortunately, drag the film down in its entirety. In that regard, it reminds me a lot of Attack of the Clones, which I think is the one of the old six movies that I have watched entirely the least times because I used to just watch the "good parts" and skip the bad stuff.
First of all, I think that the writing of TLJ is sometimes very lacking. As has been pointed out before, RJ sacrificed the integrity of the plot and the rules of this fictional universe in favor of "cool" or surprising moments. You don't even have to discuss Holdo's lightspeed jump at all, just watch how the film starts off. Like, Poe Dameron should not be able to take out the weapons of a Dreadnought on his own. Their inabilities to defend themselves against a single, small fighter not only makes little sense, Canady's failure to launch his own fighters in time to counter Poe's attack also comes off as complete incompetency on his part. I get what Rian Johnson was trying to do here: re-establish Poe Dameron as a damn ace pilot who doesn't afraid of anything, to get us back to where we left the character in TFA and then move on in displaying some of his weaker character traits and his problematic attitude, to get his character arc going. The idea itself is legitimate and fine, but the execution is horrible. Call me biased because the space battles are pretty much my favorite thing of Star Wars and I happened to consume all sorts of flying games about it, but in my eyes, it's all but established that within this universe, a single fighter does not go toe to toe with a big bad battleship. Usually, there will be groups and squadrons of fighters and the casualties will be high. What good is a Dreadnought if one single fighter can deal a great deal of harm to it, leading to its destruction because it cannot fend off enemy bombers anymore? It seems very unbelievable to me. Just imagine what the Resistance could get done if they happened to have two pilots of Poe's caliber, then...
Still, I can enjoy the opening battle and all, even though I have to shove aside my brain for a moment here and there. This alone does not make or break the movie. But there's multiple occasions the movie works that way, and they add up to what I think is a noticeable lack of consistency in the writing quality. Which is a goddamn shame, because the parts that are well written, they are damn well written. So with RJ's work, I think it really is very, very hit-and-miss for me. Which wouldn't be too bad if it was in a movie-to-movie basis, but if it happens multiple times within one single film, it feels uncomfortable to watch for me.
Next. Even though I am less fond of the lightsaber throw every time I watch it, I mostly enjoy the Ahch-To parts. Luke is great, Rey is good, Chewie's got very little to do, porgs are good fun and R2-D2 is way too unimportant, but it still all works, mostly. During this time of the movie, I think we have some of its best moments actually. The confrontation between Kylo Ren and Snoke is great, and the exchange between Poe and Leia is fantastic. In fact: I like Leia in this movie more than I did ever before, which makes it all the more heartbreaking that we won't see Carrie return to the role. The following battle is very well done, I don't even mind Leia's space scene. I actually love it. I have zero problems with how it was portrayed and don't make any fun of it. I am glad that as a kind of parting gift, it gives us some of the most beautiful, clearest high definition shots of Carrie Fisher as Princess Leia in a unique and beautifully composed scenery.

leia-in-space-TLJ-e1527696005913.png


And the music is some outstanding greatness from Williams, with a wonderful rendition of Leia's theme climaxing in the Force theme, bringing the character and her abilities, of which the potential has only ever been hinted at in the original movies, full circle thematically. Call her Carrie Poppins all you want. For me, this is Princess Leia showing that she is a Skywalker.

After that, we slowly start to get into problematic terrains. Rose Tico is a fine character actually, it's just that she was displayed unfavorably, imho. Her first exchange with Finn comes off as pretty pathetic to me. Her dialogue is bad and doesn't feel very Star Wars to me. I cannot put it into better words. How she talks and acts is representative of very modern takes on light humor and doesn't fit with how people act and talk in the Star Wars universe for me. The scene where she stuns Finn and the camera zooms out behind the window of the escape pod dramatically is very uncommon cinematography for a Star Wars movie, adding further to the experience that this entire part of the movie feels very... off. I'm not saying that you cannot introduce new stuff to Star Wars or have the films and their cinematographic language evolve, just like cinema as a whole evolves all the time, but in this instance, it's just a lot of little elements that add up together to a strange experience for me. Then, the subplot kicks in that will lead them to Canto Bight, and we are down a really bad road this time. First of all, if you have a universe with space travel for millennia, introducing new technological elements that have been unheard of before in said universe must be done with great care. The whole "Oh, they have a new locating technology, it's super new and obscure but I happen to know about it and precisely how to turn it off" thing – it just looks kinda lazy to me. There's a plethora of technological things to do, and RJ still couldn't manage to work within those frames but instead had to come up with something like that to create an obstacle for our protagonists. I just don't know. Again, it's not so much the idea itself, but how it is presented to us. It feels very on-the-nose for me. So, they talk with Poe about it, and in this scene I like Rose more because she comes off as stronger, more determined. But there's still something odd: why is Poe the one to suggest to contact Maz Kanata – instead of Finn?? If we remember the last movie, Finn has definitely met and talked to her, while as far as we know, Poe Dameron might not even know who she is at all. What happened? Did Rian Johnson just forgot who was on Takodana in Maz's castle and who wasn't and didn't have time to look it up when writing TLJ? Weird! Well, it's followed up by a horrible cameo of Maz anyway, where she gives the characters what is pretty much an obvious sidequest. This is the part that had me literally facepalm the first time I saw this movie. It was so badly written, presented in such an overly obvious and on-the-nose way that I thought that I would even criticise this in a B-tier videogame, but in a critically acclaimed movie by a supposed star writer? The only thing missing was that Maz Kanata would activate a mark on their minimap that tells them where to go next. It was just... ugh.
Canto Bight then was all sorts of horrible for a number of reasons that, I believe, has been discussed ad nauseum, so I won't get into that at all, since this post is already ten times longer than I intended it to be. So I'll just add two of my biggest gripes with what comes after: first, Holdo. Yeah, I know, I know. Misogyny, blablabla. Actually, no. I like Holdo. I actually like her character and her attitude, as in, I think it makes for an extremely great dynamic with Poe for the story. It's actually a fantastic and brilliant setup and idea and it's intruiging to watch how things unfold between them, and that Holdo actually states how she likes Poe in the end makes her tremendously sympathic, because you realize that she wasn't just being an asshole. But. Her plan, or actually her secrecy about it, is so nonsensical, so entirely void of any logical reason, that it invalidates her entire character arc that came before. Her decision to not spill the beans on what's actually going on, not even after Poe freaked out about how frustrated he is that he cannot see a plan they are following, not even in the face of a goddamn mutiny, is so unreasonable and moronic that it really kills the integrity of her character. She knowingly and intentionally left Poe in the dark about what she wanted to do, even when he assumed command and she had to fear that he would now successfully prevent her plan from happening. So, being secretive about it until the last possible moment was more important to her than the plan actually happening and succeeding? Sorry, but how does this make any kind of sense. Here is what would have realistically happened: the moment that Poe assumed command, Holdo would have told him that they do in fact have a plan, pointed out the abandoned rebel outpost, and when those dots connected, Poe would have looked like an idiot and his mutineers would have dropped their support and Holdo would have been back in charge and proceeded with her plans. But well, I guess she just didn't feel like doing that. Maybe she was glad that Poe intervened? After all, loading and coordinating a lot of ships is pretty stressful. Maybe she wanted a break from it. She's probably been up for a very long time at this point. Must be tiring, leading the Resistance all that time.
But oh well, at least it gave us a kickass scene with Leia ending Poe's mutiny and stunning him, that was great.
My second big gripe is Snoke and how he was simply discarded when RJ felt like he didn't have use for the character anymore. Sorry, but at this point, Snoke is an abysmal character. His role in the plot is too obscure to not follow up on it with any kind of exposition about who he was, where he came from and what was the deal with him. At least with TFA alone, one could speculate that Snoke just emerged after the Sith entirely, but RJ even goes the mile to hint at that Snoke actually knew Vader. We know for certain that he knew about Vader. So, combined with his perceived old age, one must assume that Snoke was around during the time of the Sith. How? Why? Did Palpatine know of him? Was he a servant of Palpatine? Was Palpatine a servant of him? Did they have any relationship at all? If so, what kind? If not – why not? Palpatine went at great lengths to make sure that he is the most powerful Force user in the galaxy and to eleminate threats and possible opposition to him. So how does Snoke fit in this scheme? But oh well, let's kill him without exploring any of that, just because. Now Rey and Kylo can be cool. And that's what the young people wanna see. Lightsaber combat action for the bois, and tragically romantic tension between supposed adversaries for the gurlz. Han Solo is dead, Snoke is in two, your parents were nothing, but I still love you. Yay!

Personally, what makes me so sad about the movie is that I am not really excited for Episode 9 at this point. Because of how some story elements were handled in TLJ, and critics and executives think it's great, I kind of lost a lot of interest to see how things will unfold in the final episode. For all we know, another Dark Side Force user could show up now in Snoke's place and pull Kylo's strings again. It would certainly work within the frames set up by TLJ, because you don't need to explain your characters and their backgrounds anymore at this point. Have a new big baddie show up and be killed off again just for Episode 9, because why not? Nothing's stopping them after how they have dealt with Snoke. But I hope JJA comes up with something better.
 

BossAttack

Member
Oct 27, 2017
43,004
they lost their entire bomber fleet to take down one ship

they could have escaped without casualties


and at worst, it didnt mattered at the end, the FO still located them


people may argue that if poe wouldnt have destroyed the dreadnaught it would have caused much more trouble afterpenetrate, but i still think if the supremacy couldnt penetrate the resistance shields, neither would the dreadnought

The Supremacy was not armed with Orbital Cannons specifically designed to penetrate planetary shields at great distances. It is essentially a mobile command center, armed primarily to defend itself, it's not t an attack craft.

We've already been through this. If Poe had not taken down the Super dreadnought, the fleet would have been wiped out when it later tracked them through hyperspace.
 

KrigareN-

Banned
Dec 13, 2017
2,156
Is the film self-contained? I fell asleep through TFA's latter half.

I'm not really a star wars fan, so I don't watch these films with a critical eye.
 
Oct 27, 2017
11,512
Bandung Indonesia
Breaking down my statement:


- the Holdo plot wants to forward a few messages, that range from "Women can be leaders too" to "... Obey authority in a military command chain?". As I said, it's not particularly compelling stuff. In doing so, it sacrifices narrative consistency. Poe's biggest flounder, the suicide run that he gets chastized for and that he has to grow past over his arc in the movie, factually saves the fleet. It's the single most important decision in that arc of the movie. Also, the arc fails to maintain a level of narrative tension that is somewhat credible. Poe goes from a full on mutiny to "He's cute, I like him" to becoming the new leader of the Resistance in a matter of hours; at the same time, the consistency of the arc is based on the idea that "military protocol is a serious thing". It's a narratively ineffectual plotline that attempts at being "deep" and cartoonish at the same time, and stumbles in the process.

- the second part of the statement regards the fact that in order to convey this super important message (ie, toxic masculinity is bad!) the movie introduces sexism and misoginy in a fantasy saga that didn't assume sexism and misoginy as a part of its own fictional world since the 70s. Women have led the Rebellion while wearing dressed from the get go; the only character who ever expressed doubts about a woman's authority was Han and it was clear he was looked down on because of it. Some of the most powerful characters and the most important people of authority in the saga are women.
By suddenly introducing the idea that a leader may be questioned because she's a woman the movie sabotages its own message and makes the fictional setting less welcoming for women themselves (because before TLJ they could simply enjoy Star Wars without having to think people in it are misoginist or sexist, now it's a thing).

Heh, you sure that's the message TLJ wanted to convey with Poe? I mean, we have a scene with both Holdo and Leia explicitly stated on the screen that they like him (most probably because of his brashness, his rashness, his 'bravery', his 'masculinity', in other words) despite how his shenanigans could kill the entire Rebellion army in one swoop. Heck Leia even trusted him, the man that almost kill everyone she fought together with, with the position of leadership in the end, complete with a warm smile.

It's like the movie tried so hard to make the audience not hating on Poe despite his blunders.
 

Visanideth

Banned
Oct 31, 2017
4,771
Heh, you sure that's the message TLJ wanted to convey with Poe? I mean, we have a scene with both Holdo and Leia explicitly stated on the screen that they like him, despite how his shenanigans could kill the entire Rebellion army in one swoop. Heck Leia even trusted him, the man that almost kill everyone she fought together with, with the position of leadership in the end, complete with a warm smile.

It's like the movie tried so hard to make the audience not hating on Poe despite his blunders.


Yeah, that's what I'm going at. You have a movie that portrays Poe's shenanigans being the cause for the death of 30+ pilots, complete with dramatic music and "oh shit what have I done looks" from him, Leia making dramatic expressions and all that jazz, then make no mention of the fact that EVERYONE would be dead if he didn't do it. This leads to further confusion as a new plot full of political strife, distrusts and dramatic dutch angles ensues, showing Poe acting behind the commander's back and leading to EVEN MORE DRAMATIC DEATH, but after a SHOOTOUT on the main deck of the capital ship, while the Empire is gaining ground and death is looming, Leia and Holdo look over the unconscious body of mutinous pilot Poe and go "He's cute, I like him!".

But wait! There's more!

Poe's undercover plan factually undoes Holdo's and so the Resistance is still going to die. Transports are blown off, people keep dying in droves, but at some point, when all hope is lost, POE LEARNS TO LISTEN! The metaphor of him managing to find a way out (spoiler, he actually doesn't, Rey still has to save the day, but fuck it at this point) by learning how to liiiiiisten isn't heavy handed at all. So with all the grace and subtlety that Star Wars: The Neverending Exposition has subjected us to we witness what's left of the resistance, including friends, sisters and sons of the people who just died because of Poe gleefully reunited under his lead because who cares if he caused a mutiny and the death of a couple hundred people, he can listen!




So, in short, the problem isn't what Rian Johnson is trying to make us do. The writing of this entire arc is cringeworthy at best.
 

Visanideth

Banned
Oct 31, 2017
4,771
I love the "darth emo" jabs from people who probably praise the whiny dumb fuck that Lucas made Anaking to be in the prequels


Honestly Kylo Ren is one of the things TLJ does right, up until the end. If the movie ended when he and Rey got separated, or had the guts of not separating them, you'd have a movie where Darth Emo actually gained some dept and development.

Heck, if the movie had the audacity (!!!) of letting Luke actually interact with Kylo we could have something interesting in our hands.

Instead Kylo is thrown under the bus in order to facilitate the fanservice nonsense of a wankfest that is Luke's sendoff, and we're left losing Luke and basically having lost Actually Decent Character Kylo to the return of Childish Emo Asshole Throwing Tantrums Kylo. Oh joy.
 
Oct 27, 2017
11,512
Bandung Indonesia
Yeah, that's what I'm going at. You have a movie that portrays Poe's shenanigans being the cause for the death of 30+ pilots, complete with dramatic music and "oh shit what have I done looks" from him, Leia making dramatic expressions and all that jazz, then make no mention of the fact that EVERYONE would be dead if he didn't do it. This leads to further confusion as a new plot full of political strife, distrusts and dramatic dutch angles ensues, showing Poe acting behind the commander's back and leading to EVEN MORE DRAMATIC DEATH, but after a SHOOTOUT on the main deck of the capital ship, while the Empire is gaining ground and death is looming, Leia and Holdo look over the unconscious body of mutinous pilot Poe and go "He's cute, I like him!".

But wait! There's more!

Poe's undercover plan factually undoes Holdo's and so the Resistance is still going to die. Transports are blown off, people keep dying in droves, but at some point, when all hope is lost, POE LEARNS TO LISTEN! The metaphor of him managing to find a way out (spoiler, he actually doesn't, Rey still has to save the day, but fuck it at this point) by learning how to liiiiiisten isn't heavy handed at all. So with all the grace and subtlety that Star Wars: The Neverending Exposition has subjected us to we witness what's left of the resistance, including friends, sisters and sons of the people who just died because of Poe gleefully reunited under his lead because who cares if he caused a mutiny and the death of a couple hundred people, he can listen!




So, in short, the problem isn't what Rian Johnson is trying to make us do. The writing of this entire arc is cringeworthy at best.

Yeah, it's surprising how much I dislike his character at the end of the movie, to be honest.

Adam Driver and Mark Hamill both did a tremendous job of carrying TLJ for me, despite my disappointment with characters like Poe and Finn (especially).
 

Sgtpepper89

Member
Oct 26, 2017
1,069
Sweden
In my book the problem is that Star Wars is a huge franchise/brand and its extremely hard, almost impossible to live up to the expectations. Im not a huge SW fan myself so havent followed what the biggest nerds have been crying about.

I saw the movie a few weeks ago and my thought after was that its a very long movie while it does not have enough interesting content to hold up for someone not a huge fan. Its just a mediocre (not bad, but 7/10) film and thats not good enough. It felt like a movie to build up for the last one where shit will go down so I have higher expectations for the next one.

I cant stand the lame bird (Porg), all I saw when it got on the screen is that its only reason its there is to sell merchandise.

I dig the Kylo Ren plot, I hope he continues in a downward spiral, but since its a american movie maby we should expect a happy ending?..

Fuck the racists vs Kelly Marie Tran, with that said, her character was a disaster. Probably due to extremely poor writing but the acting didnt make it better. Its like they lost 2/3rds of the script.
 

Fosko

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,955
It shits on TFA (which was a boring ep IV copy), killing snoke, Rei has non important parents, etc, and I love it for that.

The only bad thing is the casino part, but the rest is constant surprises and epicness.
 

Visanideth

Banned
Oct 31, 2017
4,771
Fuck the racists vs Kelly Marie Tran, with that said, her character was a disaster. Probably due to extremely poor writing but the acting didnt make it better. Its like they lost 2/3rds of the script.

I have to disagree. Had she been given a different arc, if she was allowed to be Rey's "Han Solo" you'd have a beloved character in your hands. Actress is fine, character is fine, the culprit is the writing.
 

Prine

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
15,724
And it's not the only piece of writing that is cringeworthy. The themes of the movie took absolute precedence over everything else.
I cringe at the PR speak , "we'll be the spark that will light the fire of the resistance" ~ (paraphrasing). Sounds like a slogan, takes me out every time.

I hated Rose and the pedestal she sat on. Agree with all, that the character was shite, and she brought Fin down with her.
 

Visanideth

Banned
Oct 31, 2017
4,771
I cringe at the PR speak , "we'll be the spark that will light the fire of the resistance" ~ (paraphrasing). Sounds like a slogan, takes me out every time.

It's a movie that flip flops between embracing the idea of being a grandiose spectacle for kids in the veins of a saturday morning cartoon and shoehorning in "deep" themes such as gender equality or the horrors of war. That's why I insist that the writing is very superficial; most character arcs don't hold to scrutiny. The movie moves too fast for its own good (in terms of in-fiction time progression) and it glosses over details that make the narration feel contradictory if not downright stupid.


It needed to open on Luke's lightsaber lying in the overgrown grass and Rey performing daily duties in a different attire, letting us now that weeks if not months had passed from that fateful moment where Luke rejected the sword and her as a student. It needed to give breath to things, letting Luke and Rey interact with each other, giving Finn more time to recover and some time to find a good plot for himself, letting Rose and Finn and Poe interact as a crew: show us Snoke "training" Kylo and his growing frustration so that the final payoff would be more meaningful, and build up to the final moments in a different way. It needed to replace the urgency of a space race with a depiction of how the 3 forces in the galaxy - First Order, Republic and Resistance - dealt with the colossal losses they suffered at the end of TFA.

If fundamentally needed to drop the entire Holdo arc and tell the same story while letting it breathe.
 

prag16

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
848
Kylo breaking his helmet as a result of his worldview being shattered makes perfect sense. It's not "let's subvert expectations by getting rid of the mask." Do you know how ridiculous it would be for Kylo to still be Vader lite after this metaphorical and literal roast?


It didn't play that way for me. It played as a tantrum resulting from Snoke making fun of him. Not as him turning the page or moving on or anything more significant. And as someone said above, it removed the iconic mask that people have associated with him since it was first revealed years ago.
 

Deleted member 16657

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
10,198
I think this movie has numerous obvious flaws and the criticism doesn't ever have to go to misogyny, complaining about Luke or whatever. I think it has some amazing moments, which are fun and a joy to watch, and some terrible things that, unfortunately, drag the film down in its entirety. In that regard, it reminds me a lot of Attack of the Clones, which I think is the one of the old six movies that I have watched entirely the least times because I used to just watch the "good parts" and skip the bad stuff.
First of all, I think that the writing of TLJ is sometimes very lacking. As has been pointed out before, RJ sacrificed the integrity of the plot and the rules of this fictional universe in favor of "cool" or surprising moments. You don't even have to discuss Holdo's lightspeed jump at all, just watch how the film starts off. Like, Poe Dameron should not be able to take out the weapons of a Dreadnought on his own. Their inabilities to defend themselves against a single, small fighter not only makes little sense, Canady's failure to launch his own fighters in time to counter Poe's attack also comes off as complete incompetency on his part. I get what Rian Johnson was trying to do here: re-establish Poe Dameron as a damn ace pilot who doesn't afraid of anything, to get us back to where we left the character in TFA and then move on in displaying some of his weaker character traits and his problematic attitude, to get his character arc going. The idea itself is legitimate and fine, but the execution is horrible. Call me biased because the space battles are pretty much my favorite thing of Star Wars and I happened to consume all sorts of flying games about it, but in my eyes, it's all but established that within this universe, a single fighter does not go toe to toe with a big bad battleship. Usually, there will be groups and squadrons of fighters and the casualties will be high. What good is a Dreadnought if one single fighter can deal a great deal of harm to it, leading to its destruction because it cannot fend off enemy bombers anymore? It seems very unbelievable to me. Just imagine what the Resistance could get done if they happened to have two pilots of Poe's caliber, then...
Still, I can enjoy the opening battle and all, even though I have to shove aside my brain for a moment here and there. This alone does not make or break the movie. But there's multiple occasions the movie works that way, and they add up to what I think is a noticeable lack of consistency in the writing quality. Which is a goddamn shame, because the parts that are well written, they are damn well written. So with RJ's work, I think it really is very, very hit-and-miss for me. Which wouldn't be too bad if it was in a movie-to-movie basis, but if it happens multiple times within one single film, it feels uncomfortable to watch for me.
Next. Even though I am less fond of the lightsaber throw every time I watch it, I mostly enjoy the Ahch-To parts. Luke is great, Rey is good, Chewie's got very little to do, porgs are good fun and R2-D2 is way too unimportant, but it still all works, mostly. During this time of the movie, I think we have some of its best moments actually. The confrontation between Kylo Ren and Snoke is great, and the exchange between Poe and Leia is fantastic. In fact: I like Leia in this movie more than I did ever before, which makes it all the more heartbreaking that we won't see Carrie return to the role. The following battle is very well done, I don't even mind Leia's space scene. I actually love it. I have zero problems with how it was portrayed and don't make any fun of it. I am glad that as a kind of parting gift, it gives us some of the most beautiful, clearest high definition shots of Carrie Fisher as Princess Leia in a unique and beautifully composed scenery.

leia-in-space-TLJ-e1527696005913.png


And the music is some outstanding greatness from Williams, with a wonderful rendition of Leia's theme climaxing in the Force theme, bringing the character and her abilities, of which the potential has only ever been hinted at in the original movies, full circle thematically. Call her Carrie Poppins all you want. For me, this is Princess Leia showing that she is a Skywalker.

After that, we slowly start to get into problematic terrains. Rose Tico is a fine character actually, it's just that she was displayed unfavorably, imho. Her first exchange with Finn comes off as pretty pathetic to me. Her dialogue is bad and doesn't feel very Star Wars to me. I cannot put it into better words. How she talks and acts is representative of very modern takes on light humor and doesn't fit with how people act and talk in the Star Wars universe for me. The scene where she stuns Finn and the camera zooms out behind the window of the escape pod dramatically is very uncommon cinematography for a Star Wars movie, adding further to the experience that this entire part of the movie feels very... off. I'm not saying that you cannot introduce new stuff to Star Wars or have the films and their cinematographic language evolve, just like cinema as a whole evolves all the time, but in this instance, it's just a lot of little elements that add up together to a strange experience for me. Then, the subplot kicks in that will lead them to Canto Bight, and we are down a really bad road this time. First of all, if you have a universe with space travel for millennia, introducing new technological elements that have been unheard of before in said universe must be done with great care. The whole "Oh, they have a new locating technology, it's super new and obscure but I happen to know about it and precisely how to turn it off" thing – it just looks kinda lazy to me. There's a plethora of technological things to do, and RJ still couldn't manage to work within those frames but instead had to come up with something like that to create an obstacle for our protagonists. I just don't know. Again, it's not so much the idea itself, but how it is presented to us. It feels very on-the-nose for me. So, they talk with Poe about it, and in this scene I like Rose more because she comes off as stronger, more determined. But there's still something odd: why is Poe the one to suggest to contact Maz Kanata – instead of Finn?? If we remember the last movie, Finn has definitely met and talked to her, while as far as we know, Poe Dameron might not even know who she is at all. What happened? Did Rian Johnson just forgot who was on Takodana in Maz's castle and who wasn't and didn't have time to look it up when writing TLJ? Weird! Well, it's followed up by a horrible cameo of Maz anyway, where she gives the characters what is pretty much an obvious sidequest. This is the part that had me literally facepalm the first time I saw this movie. It was so badly written, presented in such an overly obvious and on-the-nose way that I thought that I would even criticise this in a B-tier videogame, but in a critically acclaimed movie by a supposed star writer? The only thing missing was that Maz Kanata would activate a mark on their minimap that tells them where to go next. It was just... ugh.
Canto Bight then was all sorts of horrible for a number of reasons that, I believe, has been discussed ad nauseum, so I won't get into that at all, since this post is already ten times longer than I intended it to be. So I'll just add two of my biggest gripes with what comes after: first, Holdo. Yeah, I know, I know. Misogyny, blablabla. Actually, no. I like Holdo. I actually like her character and her attitude, as in, I think it makes for an extremely great dynamic with Poe for the story. It's actually a fantastic and brilliant setup and idea and it's intruiging to watch how things unfold between them, and that Holdo actually states how she likes Poe in the end makes her tremendously sympathic, because you realize that she wasn't just being an asshole. But. Her plan, or actually her secrecy about it, is so nonsensical, so entirely void of any logical reason, that it invalidates her entire character arc that came before. Her decision to not spill the beans on what's actually going on, not even after Poe freaked out about how frustrated he is that he cannot see a plan they are following, not even in the face of a goddamn mutiny, is so unreasonable and moronic that it really kills the integrity of her character. She knowingly and intentionally left Poe in the dark about what she wanted to do, even when he assumed command and she had to fear that he would now successfully prevent her plan from happening. So, being secretive about it until the last possible moment was more important to her than the plan actually happening and succeeding? Sorry, but how does this make any kind of sense. Here is what would have realistically happened: the moment that Poe assumed command, Holdo would have told him that they do in fact have a plan, pointed out the abandoned rebel outpost, and when those dots connected, Poe would have looked like an idiot and his mutineers would have dropped their support and Holdo would have been back in charge and proceeded with her plans. But well, I guess she just didn't feel like doing that. Maybe she was glad that Poe intervened? After all, loading and coordinating a lot of ships is pretty stressful. Maybe she wanted a break from it. She's probably been up for a very long time at this point. Must be tiring, leading the Resistance all that time.
But oh well, at least it gave us a kickass scene with Leia ending Poe's mutiny and stunning him, that was great.
My second big gripe is Snoke and how he was simply discarded when RJ felt like he didn't have use for the character anymore. Sorry, but at this point, Snoke is an abysmal character. His role in the plot is too obscure to not follow up on it with any kind of exposition about who he was, where he came from and what was the deal with him. At least with TFA alone, one could speculate that Snoke just emerged after the Sith entirely, but RJ even goes the mile to hint at that Snoke actually knew Vader. We know for certain that he knew about Vader. So, combined with his perceived old age, one must assume that Snoke was around during the time of the Sith. How? Why? Did Palpatine know of him? Was he a servant of Palpatine? Was Palpatine a servant of him? Did they have any relationship at all? If so, what kind? If not – why not? Palpatine went at great lengths to make sure that he is the most powerful Force user in the galaxy and to eleminate threats and possible opposition to him. So how does Snoke fit in this scheme? But oh well, let's kill him without exploring any of that, just because. Now Rey and Kylo can be cool. And that's what the young people wanna see. Lightsaber combat action for the bois, and tragically romantic tension between supposed adversaries for the gurlz. Han Solo is dead, Snoke is in two, your parents were nothing, but I still love you. Yay!

Personally, what makes me so sad about the movie is that I am not really excited for Episode 9 at this point. Because of how some story elements were handled in TLJ, and critics and executives think it's great, I kind of lost a lot of interest to see how things will unfold in the final episode. For all we know, another Dark Side Force user could show up now in Snoke's place and pull Kylo's strings again. It would certainly work within the frames set up by TLJ, because you don't need to explain your characters and their backgrounds anymore at this point. Have a new big baddie show up and be killed off again just for Episode 9, because why not? Nothing's stopping them after how they have dealt with Snoke. But I hope JJA comes up with something better.

Wonderful post. You articulated many of the flaws of the movie expertly. I really echo the sentiment of not really having anything to be excited for in episode 9.
 

Visanideth

Banned
Oct 31, 2017
4,771
It didn't play that way for me. It played as a tantrum resulting from Snoke making fun of him. Not as him turning the page or moving on or anything more significant. And as someone said above, it removed the iconic mask that people have associated with him since it was first revealed years ago.

Breaking the mask is a good narrative bit. He realizes he has to stop living in Vader's shadow.

That this factually plays out with him doing a Vader and killing his master in a throne room is one of the many unfortunate contradictions of TLJ, but not one I find particularly egregious.
 

Deleted member 2809

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
25,478
Breaking the mask is a good narrative bit. He realizes he has to stop living in Vader's shadow.

That this factually plays out with him doing a Vader and killing his master in a throne room is one of the many unfortunate contradictions of TLJ, but not one I find particularly egregious.
Vader kills the emperor to save his family and redeem himself. Kylo kills Snoke to take over the first order.
 

Wolfgunblood

Member
Dec 1, 2017
2,748
The Land
I wondered the same thing after I watched it for the first time last week on Netflix. I grew up loving Star Wars and I still like it enough. I was thoroughly into TLJ beginning to end, no gripes or issues at all. At least no more than any Star Wars movie (prequels aside). Luke's role and portrayal in this was pretty close to how I imagined it as a kid in the 80s if/when a sequel trilogy was eventually made.
 

Visanideth

Banned
Oct 31, 2017
4,771
Vader kills the emperor to save his family and redeem himself. Kylo kills Snoke to take over the first order.


There's little to no overlap in terms of what the scenes mean. I'm just saying that the "visual" juxtaposition is unfortunate. The effectiveness of him breaking away from the shadow of Vader is somewhat hampered by having that happen in a scene that is almost a 1-1 remake of what Vader did, even if the motivations are completely different.
 

Amnixia

▲ Legend ▲
The Fallen
Jan 25, 2018
10,424
Cause of the SJW message! And FEMALES.

Weird, to me it was just another Star Wars movie.
 

GavinUK86

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,740
The main reasons I didn't like it was Rey was billed to be more than just some rando she actually turned out to be. Snoke was just killed without even telling us more about him. Canto Blight... just that entire thing. FTL ramming doesn't make sense. And also that sounds filthy now I'm typing it out and re-reading it. Cranky old Luke was kinda weird. Leia becoming an icicle then not becoming an icicle while kinda makes sense because of who she is, still looked weird on screen to me. The overall pacing just felt off too. It was a very slow movie.

Bear in mind, I didn't HATE it, it was just very... meh. It is what it is. I haven't really liked the new movies that much. Rogue One has been my favourite so far. Not seen Solo yet.

I'm sure I'm literally just repeating what most people are saying too but those things all really stood out to me.

I did read the novelization of it, and I liked that a little bit more. It still isn't great, but was more palatable.

I do absolutely abhor the "internet" reactions to it though, like on Twitter etc etc. Being rude to the cast and all that bullying, sexist, racist bullshit I see is disgusting.
 

MagicHobo

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,601
There's little to no overlap in terms of what the scenes mean. I'm just saying that the "visual" juxtaposition is unfortunate. The effectiveness of him breaking away from the shadow of Vader is somewhat hampered by having that happen in a scene that is almost a 1-1 remake of what Vader did, even if the motivations are completely different.
I disagree with this. Living in the shadow of Vader would mean never achieving or catching up to Vader. By continuing to hiding behind a mask and never blossoming into a true villain or living up to his grandfather. Only by breaking away from the shadow, in this case represented by the mask, can he reach that level.

Which he does, ostensibly, when he killed Snoke. But he's still not there because that's his conflict.

He still isn't there. He killed his father, broke his mask and killed his mentor, but he still loves his mommy, the girl he likes rejected him, and Luke and Leia's passing will rob him of closure. He'll never be whole. Which I think makes him a good character, he's desperate but fulfillment is impossible and that will make him dangerous and unpredictable.
 

mikehaggar

Developer at Pixel Arc Studios
Verified
Oct 26, 2017
1,379
Harrisburg, Pa
My biggest issue with the movie is the way it discards so much of what was set up in Episode VII. I'm assuming the throne room battle in TLJ is roughly half-way through the movie, so at halfway through the trilogy Snoke is discarded and the whole mystery surrounding Rey is just a big "it's nothing" burger. Flynn is wasted, Luke is dead... Where are the remaining characters going? All that's really left is the showdown between Rey and Kylo for Episode IX and the path the story took to get there was kind of... for nothing? And contradictory. Going forward I hope they outline a story arc for future trilogies as the approach they took with this one was not successful. I don't think there's anything that Episode IX can do to "'fix" it.

The other small stuff (humor, Leia space force powers, etc..) I can overlook even if I'm not 100% sold on them. Oh, but Canto Bight was awful. Easily the worst part of the movie for me.
 

Mona

Banned
Oct 30, 2017
26,151
I love the "darth emo" jabs from people who probably praise the whiny dumb fuck that Lucas made Anaking to be in the prequels
I too love treating opinions as absolute truths.
I love it when people imply that every post that has an opinion contrary to their own should start with "IMO" as if it wasn't true of every post in the thread.

Theres a lot of love in this thread
 

Alastor3

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
8,297
Leia can't use force powers, Luke has to be a badass jedi, Rey has to stay the entire movie doing MORE training, why stop the pew pew for some rich people being happy because of wars?
maybe force power come with ages? Or maybe in very dire situation the force come for help
 

John Rabbit

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,112
I didn't get the controversy either; I just thought it was kind of a boring movie that didn't go anywhere interesting.
 

Visanideth

Banned
Oct 31, 2017
4,771
lol wtf are you talking about

I'll try to make it simplier.


Ben's arc in that part of the movie is accepting he needs to stop being a damn fanboy and follow through every step of Vader's path and to carve his own.

However, this plays out with him bringing the one person he feels tied to and that's been trying to turn him against his mentor to the mentor's throne room, where the mentor belittles him while focusing on the prisoner, and ultimately begins torturing that person, at which point he turns against the mentor and kills him.

Reminds you of something?
 

Mona

Banned
Oct 30, 2017
26,151
I'll try to make it simplier.


Ben's arc in that part of the movie is accepting he needs to stop being a damn fanboy and follow through every step of Vader's path and to carve his own.

However, this plays out with him bringing the one person he feels tied to and that's been trying to turn him against his mentor to the mentor's throne room, where the mentor belittles him while focusing on the prisoner, and ultimately begins torturing that person, at which point he turns against the mentor and kills him.

Reminds you of something?

"Let the past die, so you can pilfer its pockets"