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Big One

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,277
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Since there's a lot of discussion surrounding this with the recent news of Broly, I'd like to reflect on Dragon Ball as a series in terms of continuity. So let's cut to the chase. Does Dragon Ball - the multi-media franchise that rivals series like Pokemon and Star Wars in popularity - have a canon?

No.

At least, that's the short answer. There has never been an official source that has ever stated, "This thing is canon, and THIS thing is not canon." Try it; look it up. You'll never hear the words "canon" in any quote in any sort of context. Most quotes "proving" there's a canon such as Toriyama comments on GT DO NOT confirm there is an established canon.

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Dragon Ball GT is a grand side-story of the original Dragon Ball, and it'll make me happy for us to watch and enjoy it together.
Source: http://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations/dragon-book-gt-toriyama-intro/

Being a side-story doesn't mean "non-canon" it just means it's not part of the main story of the series.

However, there's a lot more to it than that. Generally, things in Dragon Ball focus on different continuities of sorts. A lot of the franchise fringes on what-ifs, alternate timelines, other continuities, etc.

However let's get one thing clear, the "canon" of Dragon Ball is completely fanmade. That isn't to say we can't use the term when describing things, or debating things, but it's still largely a fanmade concept for the series. Primarily because TOEI doesn't want to delegitimize their properties by touting them as "non-canon" when they know they can keep the cash flow going in for series like Dragon Ball GT for example.

Now, moving on from that, IF there was a canon, what would it most likely be?

The first tier of canon:

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Well the most canon piece of media out there would be these two manga. First is Jaco the Galactic Patrolman and the second is Dragon Ball. Both of these manga were written and drawn by the creator of the series Akira Toriyama with no collaboration from others.

The second tier of canon:

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Battle of Gods and Resurrection F.

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Dragon Ball Super (anime), Dragon Ball Super (manga), Dragon Ball Super: Broly.

This is where the waters get muddy. Akira Toriyama wrote all of these, but unlike Jaco and Dragon Ball he actually had outside collaboration. Even Battle of Gods was initially a TOEI concept that he retooled and rewrote. On top of that, Super retells the movies in it's own way as well.

Also, despite this forum's hatred for Toyotaro, there's never been an official distinction or point made to suggest the anime is "more canon" than the manga, it's only assumed as such because the anime has a higher priority.

This establishes that even amongst Toriyama's own writing, there's already multiple continuities and different takes of the same story. Everything outside of this is questionable canon, even amongst Toriyama's other writings.

Here's some stuff that MIGHT be canon:

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Bu-bu-bu-but what about Dr. Slump?! Let me ask you this: have you READ Dr. Slump? If you have, you shouldn't be asking this question. Dr. Slump kind of exists in Dragon Ball, but it's more of an easter egg. In continuity it doesn't work. All we know is that there's some form of Dr. Slump's story in the Dragon World, not that the actual Dr. Slump manga is "canon" to Dragon Ball.

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Yo! Son Goku and Friends is still good...right? Maybe. Nobody really knows. It's referenced in Battle of Gods, but that reference was removed from the Super anime and manga. So...maybe? I don't see why not.

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Dragon Ball Online! That's canon! Even though Toriyama worked on it, we do not know to what extent. If he did, he probably forgot most of the stuff he came up for it, lol. Nothing in Super references DB Online, and all of the characters from it have been adopted by the video games. So maybe elements of it will be canon, but we won't find that out anytime soon.

Things that Toriyama didn't write that people mistakenly believe he did:

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Bardock: Father of Goku.

Toriyama did not write this whatsoever despite being a fan favorite movie. He drew Bardock and his friends' designs, and then later referenced the movie in his manga by showcasing a panel with Bardock in it.

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Dragon Ball Z Kai.

Despite being closer to the manga than the original anime, this isn't the "true" version of the series. There's still a ton of filler moments and stuff in it that wasn't in the original manga. Toriyama also had no hand in this series whatsoever. This is completely a TOEI product meant to make the original anime more watchable to modern audiences.

So what's non-canon then?

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Dragon Ball GT, Dragon Ball Xenoverse, Dragon Ball Heroes, and all the original Dragon Ball movies.

There's a bunch of other shit too but you get the gist of it, lol.

Not even good enough to be non-canon:

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Dragon Ball: Evolution.
 

sibarraz

Prophet of Regret - One Winged Slayer
Avenger
Oct 27, 2017
18,102
Whatever thing that Toriyama hasn't forgotten yet
 

Punchline

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
4,151
Wait you started by saying gt wasnt necessarily non-canon and then just dropped it into non-canon? Lol what?
 

just_myles

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,453
If Toriyama made it its canon.

That is my general rule of thumb for anything DB to DBZ. If he had a hand in it then it is canon. Movies are not canon.

The trouble I have now with the canon is I think the anime version of DBS is terrible and the manga is better and more in line with the manga in a lot of ways with regards to
power levels
.
 

Alastor3

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
8,297
Can Broly be Canon please, I love him so much
 

kurahador

Member
Oct 28, 2017
17,536
I watched the whole of GT but I consider the canon story ends with the manga. Never even bothered with the movies or Super.
GT at least had a definitive end.
 

Deleted member 8001

user requested account closure
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
7,440
Whatever is successful and not crossover at the current moment is canon I guess?

GT was written by Toei and was intended to be the "canon" sequel for the series but it failed. Super is successful right now.

Though Super is based on the Dragon Ball Z anime which has several differences than the Dragon Ball manga.

Canon for this series is hard to explain.

If Toriyama made it its canon.
Does this mean Dragon Ball Super isn't canon because Toriyama had more control over Battle of the Gods than he does Super?

You can look at the manga and anime for Super to see that Toei and Toyotaro write much different stories despite having guidelines from Toriyama.

Also someday Toriyama will die and the series will continue without him, so I don't think this is the best approach for this.
 

skeezx

Member
Oct 27, 2017
20,131
to me the original manga run is canon, and everything else the verdict is out. GT i believe was canon for awhile but 20 years out seems like they backpedaled on it, time will tell if Super and those movies will have the same fate

unless Toriyama goes back to doing an original manga run (very unlikely) its all speculative.
 

munchie64

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
2,541
Only thing that's "canon" is the manga. Pick and choose everything else you want to take seriously.

Or just don't give a shit.
 

CoolestSpot

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
17,325
The tier list of canon reminds me of old Star Wars EU canon where they didn't try to stick to canon, just if you were a certain piece of media you overuled one thing and all others had to bend to the above tiers will.
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Glasfrut

Avenger
Oct 27, 2017
3,534
Also someday Toriyama will die and the series will continue without him, so I don't think this is the best approach for this.

Why not? I think there's a legitimate position to take that anything made outside of him is not Dragonball "proper". This is a less collaborative area than, for example, video games...yet, I think most people would find it hard to consider any new MGS outside of Kojima's hands as being canon.
 

Deleted member 8001

user requested account closure
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
7,440
Why not? I think there's a legitimate position to take that anything made outside of him is not Dragonball "proper". This is a less collaborative area than, for example, video games...yet, I think most people would find it hard to consider any new MGS outside of Kojima's hands as being canon.
Read the rest of what I stated to see why.

His influence with Super is rather minimal whereas Toei and Toyotaro provide most of the story, he provides the guidelines.

So what I'm stating is, Super is very much written by people outside of Toriyama.
 

Glasfrut

Avenger
Oct 27, 2017
3,534
Read the rest of what I stated to see why.

His influence with Super is rather minimal whereas Toei and Toyotaro provide most of the story, he provides the guidelines.

So what I'm stating is, Super is very much written by people outside of Toriyama.

I didn't read?

If I understand you correctly - he provides guidelines for Super, right? If he dies, there will be no guidelines, right?

Would it be wrong for someone to take the position that "Toriyama had ZERO to do with this (no suggestions, no input, no guidelines) so I don't consider this canon"?

At the moment, he is free to retcon or change anything he is not happy with or feels like adding (didn't he do that with S-cells). He can contradict Super at any time and make it non-canon.

(Unless you're telling me GT had guidelines from him as well. But that wouldn't matter much because he came up after to sideline it, right?)
 

Zaied

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,553
I believe the only material Toriyama came out and said wasn't canon are the DBZ movies, which he described as taking place in alternate dimensions. Other than that, he probably doesn't even use the word 'canon', or at least it doesn't seem like something he's cared to comment on in full, despite years of debates.
 
OP
OP
Big One

Big One

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,277
Wait you started by saying gt wasnt necessarily non-canon and then just dropped it into non-canon? Lol what?
I was just pointing out a quote people frequently point out to prove there's a canon for the series. For their to be a legitimate canon it has to be established by an official source aka how Stat Wars is run right now.

The "canon" of Dragon Ball is mostly fanmade, however IF something was canon it would be those series I listed. But even amongst those there are different continuities and etc.
 

Rackham

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
8,532
To understand Dragon Ball lore, you have to realize what a mediocre writer Toriyama is. He created something with popular tropes and that's about it.

And secondly, pretty much any movie is non canon unless they specifically say it's canon.
 

Laxoon

One Winged Slayer
Member
Jan 24, 2018
1,831
For me it's pretty easy.
If it can rationally fit into the established timeline of the original manga and has toriyama's hand in it it has a shot at being canon.

  • None of the original movies fit into the timeline of the original manga except for Wrath of the Dragon.
  • GT could've been considered canon til DBS slotted into the timeline before it and introduced concepts that would be impossible to explain in retrospect so no way is GT canon anymore.
  • Bardock: the father of goku has been grandfathered in by DragonBall Minus so that and Jaco are all good.
  • The 2008 special doesn't contradict anything and it's a nice lead in from Z to battle of the gods and resurrection of freiza arcs that are also apart of /lead into DBS.
  • The broad strokes of DBS following those two arcs up to universe survival either with manga or anime is fine.
  • Then we have this new Broly movie. Whatever comes after that new movie should be good as long as it didn't contradict anything already established.

Then we get into the big maybies with dragon ball online 's general story. Depending on whatever comes between now and far into the date Online takes place in it cloud end up being canon .

Heroes is in a league of its own, it's just anything goes wackyness and I love it in its own right but no way is it canon, that includes episode of bardock. Dr. Slump is an easter egg at best.
 

Deleted member 176

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
37,160
Everything in the DB(Z) manga and the Super anime is canon. This means that Broly is now canon, but not the Broly in the old movies and BioBroly. GT is not canon.

It's unknown if End of Z will stay canon or if they'll change it, since it sucked.

Edit: Good point about Jaco and Dr Slump being canon too OP
 
Apr 16, 2018
1,760
if toriyama was the sole-owner of the series, I could see your point about canon.

He's not though, so I don't think it matters. He only came back on because he hated Evolution so much, but TOEI owns Dragon Ball as much as he does lol
 

daveo42

Member
Oct 25, 2017
17,250
Ohio
Bio Broly is the only canon I need.

The only cannon that matters for Evolution is the one used to shoot it into the sun.
 

Watchtower

Member
Oct 27, 2017
11,640
I actually don't understand how DB fans get so goddamn confused with continuity.

Even as a kid I had a pretty good grasp on how non-canon the original movies and GT were (on accounts of them being kinda shit, except Bardock because it was a prequel).

The Marvel and DC universes must be nightmares in comparison.
 

archreaper93

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,421
Canon: Dragonball manga, Super anime, BoG and Resurrection F.

Noncanon: everything else.


Then again, I'm looking at this from a vs debate viewpoint. Too many people used to claim Vegeta was a casual planet buster in the Saiyan Saga when the scene of him destroying the bug planet was anime only.
 

SageShinigami

Member
Oct 27, 2017
30,460
To me the only thing that's canon is things Toriyama had direct involvement in. If he didn't, it don't count. I don't argue over this either--you wanna include anime this or that cool. I'm good on that.
 

Monster Zero

Member
Nov 5, 2017
5,612
Southern California
I actually don't understand how DB fans get so goddamn confused with continuity.

Even as a kid I had a pretty good grasp on how non-canon the original movies and GT were (on accounts of them being kinda shit, except Bardock because it was a prequel).

The Marvel and DC universes must be nightmares in comparison.

The GT fans always try to slick talk GT into canon. Their new thing is trying to put Super and GT into the same tier of canon.