Feels like Valve and Naughty Dog are actually polar opposites of each other in terms of work culture.
-
Ever wanted an RSS feed of all your favorite gaming news sites? Go check out our new Gaming Headlines feed! Read more about it here.
-
We have made minor adjustments to how the search bar works on ResetEra. You can read about the changes here.
Waypoint - "We Asked Nintendo, Microsoft, and 12 Other Devs How They Deal With Crunch"
- Thread starter MadLaughter
- Start date
DahahahaRemedy's and DONTNOD's answers were thankfully great. Not a good look on the ESA, Ubisoft PR (Massive does well due to their local regulations), IOI, and CD Project.
I can't imagine Naughty Dog ever replying to a question of that with an answer that does not contain the word passion somewhere. You just have to look at Cory Barlog's answer on the topic to get a picture of how bad it probably is at ND.
"So, we've been asking about crunching and unionization and... Where are you going?
ND:
Yeah his comment was « little crunch » so I wanted him to list those many studios because I really can't think of any tbh
I have friends at beenox, gearbox, ubisoft and ea studios and they all crunch heavy hours here in Canada
Why did you turn Mercury Steam and Next Level into Nintendo studios?
Ah, my bad. I forgot Glassdoor isn't publicly viewable unless you've shared a salary/review. In any case, I'm certainly not opposed to games costing more in order to pay the teams higher salaries. Games should have risen in up-front prices a long time ago, but it seems nobody wants to be the platform that bites that bullet.
Well then good that "human blood" is also generally a metaphor for "sacrifice of comfort" in this case.
Depends on your role but I know many who crunch at T10 and work weekends when needed. They were better than most but the trade off to that is the amount of creativity allowed and what amounts to tuning an experience vs building one up from scratch.
Also correct that gaming pays less at MS but often requires more hours.
I'm not sure how this can be true given the level of talent at Naughty Dog and how they seem to (almost constantly) be hiring AAA devs from other studios.
Interesting that many of the studios that gamers reflect to as godly or great or amazing like Naughty Dogs, CDPR, Rockstar, etc, turn out to be massive shitshow for their employees to live in.
And EA, the harbingers of evil and the destroyer of video games, is actually the one that is more positive? Hah, talk about disconnect to reality.
And EA, the harbingers of evil and the destroyer of video games, is actually the one that is more positive? Hah, talk about disconnect to reality.
Hear hear. There are stories of designers and programmers quitting the industry they loved, only to into IT and non-gaming software because of better pay and work-life balance.
What's their story? Can you share?
Plenty of people in here have said that crunch is also something that smaller devs like indies do, perhaps even more so since they don't typically have resources to complete their games efficiently.
That was 14 years ago, wasn't it? My impression is that EA have largely cleaned up their act since then, Bioware horridly crunching on ME: Andromeda being the most obvious exception.
Comfort? People get divorced over crunch. People can end up in the hospital due to crunch; I know one of those people personally.
The only reason it exists is because they hire young people who are eager and don't know any better, and the senior people get some golden handcuffs to keep them on-board. And also the peer pressure that everyone else around you, your colleagues and friends, are crunching as well. It's fucking insidious and wrong.
Theres seems to be a lot of misinformation running in this thread. Im not sure where people got the idea that game developers are under paid with bad benefits or that game developers generally have a problem with crunch time.
As someone who worked in the industry for the better part of a decade, in multiple studios, it has been my personal experience that most developers have absolutely no problem with Crunch. The "dread" of crunch is more of a running joke to scare newbies. The main reasons for this being okay with crunch include, but are not limited to,
They don't want to work in a different industry.
They get very large amounts of vacation time. Some go so far as two save it for two years and then takes months off.
On top of their regular paid vacation, most studios close for two weeks at the end of the year, with pay.
They have very relaxed work schedules in non-crunch development cycles. Some people choose to work nights, some choose afternoons and some work regular hours.
They want their project to be finished and of the highest possible quality.
They get paid well, even if they could make more elsewhere.
Non-salaried employees get paid time and a half and double time.
They get a lot of free stuff.
They get to go to conventions like PAX for free, even if they are not working. Most developers are in fact big fans of video games.
And many more reasons.
I can honestly say, in all my years in the industry, I've never met a single person who wanted to Unionize. Unions would break the industry in ways people do not understand. Regular labor laws already get in the way of how many people want to run their work day. Some examples,
Many states require mandatory breaks, one hour for lunch and two fifteen minutes breaks. Unfortunately, stopping what you are doing to take a break you don't want takes you out of your zone. When you are feverishly working on something, having to stop makes it very hard to pick up where you left off.
This is very unnecessary in an industry where nobody is putting your nose to the ground stone. Most people I worked with would stop a random times in the day and just chat with their friends for extended periods of time. They put in their time, but they do it casually.
For studios that don't strictly enforce mandatory breaks, people just lie on their time cards so the company doesn't get in trouble. It is an obnoxious waste of time.
Adding unions would only add more BS like this to the industry, but the worst consequences would be felt by people trying to get in the door.
When I started in the industry, I only had a high school diploma and some college. I joined QA in a trial by fire where 50 people were hired and only the most successful were invited back. This allowed me a foot in the door where I then learned game design from some of the top designers in the industry. I learned 3D modeling and world building from seasoned professionals and I was given access to a series of tools that taught me Javascript, C#, Java, SQL, and the ability to write Software Automation. Thanks to the openness of this industry, I was able to parlay a high school diploma and a love of video games into a six figure career. Many of my friends went on to become designers, writers and artists.
If the video game industry unionized, that door closes for everyone else. The entire practice would be outrite banned. No one would get in without a college degree.
The ability of Developers to jump to new studios would be locked out just as quickly. Everyone could be stuck with a multi year/ multi game contracts.
Game Development is not for everyone, but it is not an abusive practice. The people who can handle the job excel and the people who cannot quit or don't get asked to stay. Obviously not every studio runs the same way. All of the studies I worked for were dramatically different, but one thing was always true. If you don't like your studios, there are ten more trying to poach you every day.
Sorry if that came off a little strong, but I very much disapprove of people who do not do the work trying to make changes that no one is asking for. Changes I, and most of my friends, personally believe would only negatively impact the employees of this great industry.
As someone who worked in the industry for the better part of a decade, in multiple studios, it has been my personal experience that most developers have absolutely no problem with Crunch. The "dread" of crunch is more of a running joke to scare newbies. The main reasons for this being okay with crunch include, but are not limited to,
They don't want to work in a different industry.
They get very large amounts of vacation time. Some go so far as two save it for two years and then takes months off.
On top of their regular paid vacation, most studios close for two weeks at the end of the year, with pay.
They have very relaxed work schedules in non-crunch development cycles. Some people choose to work nights, some choose afternoons and some work regular hours.
They want their project to be finished and of the highest possible quality.
They get paid well, even if they could make more elsewhere.
Non-salaried employees get paid time and a half and double time.
They get a lot of free stuff.
They get to go to conventions like PAX for free, even if they are not working. Most developers are in fact big fans of video games.
And many more reasons.
I can honestly say, in all my years in the industry, I've never met a single person who wanted to Unionize. Unions would break the industry in ways people do not understand. Regular labor laws already get in the way of how many people want to run their work day. Some examples,
Many states require mandatory breaks, one hour for lunch and two fifteen minutes breaks. Unfortunately, stopping what you are doing to take a break you don't want takes you out of your zone. When you are feverishly working on something, having to stop makes it very hard to pick up where you left off.
This is very unnecessary in an industry where nobody is putting your nose to the ground stone. Most people I worked with would stop a random times in the day and just chat with their friends for extended periods of time. They put in their time, but they do it casually.
For studios that don't strictly enforce mandatory breaks, people just lie on their time cards so the company doesn't get in trouble. It is an obnoxious waste of time.
Adding unions would only add more BS like this to the industry, but the worst consequences would be felt by people trying to get in the door.
When I started in the industry, I only had a high school diploma and some college. I joined QA in a trial by fire where 50 people were hired and only the most successful were invited back. This allowed me a foot in the door where I then learned game design from some of the top designers in the industry. I learned 3D modeling and world building from seasoned professionals and I was given access to a series of tools that taught me Javascript, C#, Java, SQL, and the ability to write Software Automation. Thanks to the openness of this industry, I was able to parlay a high school diploma and a love of video games into a six figure career. Many of my friends went on to become designers, writers and artists.
If the video game industry unionized, that door closes for everyone else. The entire practice would be outrite banned. No one would get in without a college degree.
The ability of Developers to jump to new studios would be locked out just as quickly. Everyone could be stuck with a multi year/ multi game contracts.
Game Development is not for everyone, but it is not an abusive practice. The people who can handle the job excel and the people who cannot quit or don't get asked to stay. Obviously not every studio runs the same way. All of the studies I worked for were dramatically different, but one thing was always true. If you don't like your studios, there are ten more trying to poach you every day.
Sorry if that came off a little strong, but I very much disapprove of people who do not do the work trying to make changes that no one is asking for. Changes I, and most of my friends, personally believe would only negatively impact the employees of this great industry.
Next Level Games' co-founder stated that NLG are now only working on Nintendo platforms going forward back in 2014. They're a 2nd Party studio now, much like HAL and Camelot.
Mercury Steam however have no such relationship though. They're a typical 3rd party studio, so they shouldn't really be lumped into the conversation here.
NLG's stance on crunch is pretty unique, and the company do crank out some great quality products; but as a result, they do take a long time to get projects out of the door (3 year odd gaps are the norm for them right now). I'd certainly cite them as a great example of how you can run a great development studio in a healthy and sustainable fashion!
Appreciate your input. I always felt it odd that journalists were pushing this forward instead of actual employees. I also thing the divorce stories are exaggerated and are probably at the same % as the rest of the population.
I'm not sure how you came to the conclusion that your experience in game development qualifies you to speak as the grand arbiter of labor laws, but it absolutely does not.
Game developers are not some special sub-species of homo sapiens that are immune to the physical, psychological, and physiological effects of working in a stressful, unhealthy environment, and you proclaiming that there's nothing wrong with crunch time is not going to change those facts. The need for humanitarian laws in any work environment is strongly supported by science, however upset you may feel about the impending changes that will likely take place in the future.
Crunch is the result of shitty decisions (unrealistic scheduling, poorly thought out specs, ego, last minute demands) by people far above the pay grades of those who have to do the actual heavy lifting.
Romanticizing it is fucking stupid
Romanticizing it is fucking stupid
Yeah, it's ridiculous. Reminds me of American work culture in general, where if you aren't on the grind 24/7, you aren't living your best life. Absolute absurdity.
Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
What are you on because it seems amazing.
Last edited:
how do you think journalists come to the conclusions they do?
Employees can't put it forward because making waves is the best way to get put on the list of expendables.
So maybe there's correlation? More passion equal better game?
Retro constantly crunches? Man that place must be really inefficient since they haven't released anything in like five years
I see lots of articles about the gaming industry 'crunch' all the time but is it that uncommon within many other industry's ?
I work in London in the investment industry and I routinely work 12-15hour days, add a few hours of commuting and that's 18 hour days.
My friends who work in media and marketing work similar hours and I feel like most people who work well paid jobs in big city's work more than the usual 9-5, especially those who work for American companies who generally have a culture of working a lot.
I obviously realise that it's not heathly and a work life balance is needed (which is why it can't be done every single day of the week) but I can honestly say I don't know anybody who is successful and doesn't work 12-18hour days at least a few nights a week.
I work in London in the investment industry and I routinely work 12-15hour days, add a few hours of commuting and that's 18 hour days.
My friends who work in media and marketing work similar hours and I feel like most people who work well paid jobs in big city's work more than the usual 9-5, especially those who work for American companies who generally have a culture of working a lot.
I obviously realise that it's not heathly and a work life balance is needed (which is why it can't be done every single day of the week) but I can honestly say I don't know anybody who is successful and doesn't work 12-18hour days at least a few nights a week.
I remember reading Glassdoor stuff from Rockstar where they talked about weird Orwellian behavior like taking people out for a drink to try to loosen them up so they might expose themselves as something less than a perfect devotee to the cult of Rockstar. Everyone's supposed to pretend that everything is fine, that they're a super duper team player, that management has everyone's best interests at heart and that anyone suggesting otherwise doesn't fit with company culture.
Are you gonna support next time Rockstar, cdpr, naughty dog releases their game?
Game development does not pay as well as those jobs. The payoff is not there like it is for more stable/mature industries,
I'm sorry but you sound like a studio head rather than an employee.
As someone also in this industry, and also knowing many people in many different countries, I've never heard this kind of stuff other than by old guys trying to stay relevant, or young people trying to exploit others.
Haven't really thought about it to be honest. Would you?
Though I don't really play their games, Rockstar especially, so it's not going to be a loss if someday I decide not to support them anymore.
Ive only heard good things from my dev friends in Sweden, its a very progressed country in terms of employee treatment though, but its not bad everywhere. In my field (finance) there is a huge difference between which country you work in, not so much which company.
I am gonna buy RDR2 and TLOU2 and CB2077. Crunch exists and gonna continue to exist with or without me buying those games. So I rather enjoy myself by consuming media I have interest and prioritizing my own personal life issues first . I just do not have time and energy to invest in thinking about people who I do not personally know. And that's just me and I am fine with people who have strong beliefs and moral system and they go by that. I am not that kind of person
yes, it's the responsibility of consumers to ensure proper working conditions, and not the executives and CEOs with multi-million dollar salaries.
I think you misunderstood me. My point was, if someone is so disgusted by working conditions of Rockstar , CDPR or Naughty Dog, then I hope he or she won't support them by buying their products. That my point.
This comic needs to be updated stat but with Waypoint being the interviewer and shitty publishers dodging the question about crunch. Also, Unionize. Y'all look like chumps letting these companies work you like indentured servants. Have some respect for yourselves and your talents.
I mean it's not like anyone is forbidding you to do those at the same time, you know? Buying and enjoying the games while at the same time asking for those companies to better the working conditions for their employees. It's not like you have to choose one or the other, you can do both.
There are also other venues you can pursue such as second-hand market, etc etc. There are ways.
While I agree with that, to me it sound a tad bit hypocritical. Just supporting a thing you are so against of supporting because its so against what you stand for. IDK.
Fun fact. One of the cd projekt red founder's Michal Kicinski has had been meditating in India to relieve stress due to work. Dude had some serious problems with depression, when working on the first Witcher. Here is an interview, but it's in Polish:
http://www.newsweek.pl/styl-zycia/m...presji-i-cenie-sukcesu,artykuly,381091,1.html
http://www.newsweek.pl/styl-zycia/m...presji-i-cenie-sukcesu,artykuly,381091,1.html
This attitude is why things never change. All the employees, the ones with the least to gain, work the hardest and the competition between them means that few are willing to speak up for their right.
If you want to work all those extra hours, that's fine but don't assume that it is right for everyone or even fair.
I had a friend who worked in film for a couple of years, they had a similar system to what you mentioned here. They worked long hours, often 12 hour days, for low pay, no overtime and guarantee of regular work. It was terrible and exploitative and he quit and is now much happier doing a job he can leave at 5.
The only way workers can counter this sort of bullshit is to unionise. If you are happy and feel fairly rewarded for your work, good for you but the same rules are used to pressure a lot of people into doing insane amounts of extra work for scant reward.
Most consumers don't care. It is all well and good to say this as they are the group with most leverage, but in practical terms, it makes no difference.
The only people with the potential interest and practical ability are those working in the industry. But note, they have to take an interest in doing so.
Last edited: