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Maedhros

Teyvat Traveler
Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,871
Hopefully this game will correct most of the problems I had with the first (combat being boring - almost non existent and no boss fights - and no, the escape sequences aren't boss fights or supplement them for me, they got boring fast after Ginso Tree, which was fantastic, the other ones were just... ok).
 

thomasmahler

Game Director at Moon Studios
Verified
Oct 27, 2017
1,097
Vienna / Austria

SpartyCrunch

Xbox
Verified
Oct 25, 2017
2,497
Seattle, WA
Just get rid of the one hit kill, trial and error escape sections. What a chore to get through an otherwise brilliant game.

The escape sequences were my favorite part of the game! A perfect "final exam" in which you used everything you've learned previously to execute in one final sequence, built up with a ton of drama along the way.

Trial and error isn't inherently a bad thing as long as you can restart instantly, and as long as the whole sequence from beginning to end isn't too long once you know how to beat it - exactly what Ori did.

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FrostyLemon

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
1,635
Listening to the soundtrack at the moment. I honestly think using the Blind Forest as a base and building on it in the way they are saying is really exciting That game is fantastic in every department except combat and if they can ace that and just do everything bigger and better than they did last time, this game is going to be something seriously special. And for god sakes include an Ori figure in the special edition next time.
 

Deleted member 8860

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
6,525
Combat looks to be better than the original game, which was awful in that regard, but the sequel still seems to have poor readability. Hopefully the interactive foreground and non-interactive background elements will at least be more distinct this time around, even if the too-zoomed-out view and over-the-top special effects remain.
 

D4rth Man7iz

Member
Mar 30, 2018
636
Thanks for sharing OP. The E3 impressions were extremely positive. I'm sure they will deliver one of the best games of the generation, even superior to its predecessor.
 

Eolz

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
7,601
FR
Will be interesting to see how it ends up. I really liked the first game, but had issues with the pacing and some other bits.
I'm really looking forward to it, especially since they got the AM2R guy on it now.
 

Typhoon20

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
1,568
People really love to exaggerate don't they. HK superior to Ori? Not slightly better no (even that's debatable) but superior? lol.

My biggest issue with Ori was the combat. If they can improve on that they will have made a big step towards their goal. Soundtrack, Visuals, Story is already flawless. Especially visuals and soundtrack is superior.
 

TheYanger

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
10,140
Sorry but this is incorrect. The longest stretch from a bench to a boss will take at the most 2 minutes, and it's typically much faster. I do wish benches were sometimes a bit more generous in their placement, but 5-10m is just not true at all.
Sorry but I'm speaking from personal experience.
 

mentallyinept

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,403
I gotta say, it's really worrying whenever I see a dev say stuff like this.

You are setting expectations so high that if this game isn't the best thing ever you will be raked over the coals forever with these quotes.
 

headspawn

Member
Oct 27, 2017
14,605
It'll be very interesting to me to see how people will react to the story this time. We definitely did try to make the world whole and to elevate what we started with Blind Forest to a whole new level. We actually hired Alexander O. Smith (if you don't know who he is, he has his own Wikipedia page ;)) a while ago to help us with the writing process, he's working on Ori and our yet-to-be-announced project. We finished writing the overall storyline last year and at our Team Retreat there's already been lots of tears. We never consciously try to tell sad stories, but since Ori is all about telling these allegorical tales, I think it's easy for people to identify with our characters.

And don't worry about us copying others too much - we always look at what happens outside our team, but I don't think people will make many connections to Hollow Knight and the likes. I was already surprised that some people thought we copied HK simply cause we now have more NPCs in the world that Ori can interact with - HK wasn't really our reference at all when it came to that. I wanted more NPCs even in Blind Forest (mostly cause I loved what ALTTP did with simple characters that gave you some clues and so on), but doing that the Moon Studios way with all the required animations was just way too expensive. But this time we were able to do it and do it in the way we wanted :)

Our combat system for example is much deeper and much more intricate than what any other Metroidvania has done so far and I think people will objectively be able to agree with that. Every single one of our weapons has their own animation set, it's an animation-commit combat system where we control timing based on the actual animation frames. I don't think it's even fair at all to compare what 2d games before WotW did with WotW in that regard since we're obviously using super advanced tools and built everything upon a super strong foundation. Most Metroidvanias including HK trigger a simple animation and spawn a little effect when you press the attack button - we obviously went way further than that. I don't feel super comfortable talking about this stuff since I'm one of the developers and it could quickly sound like I'm downplaying other games that came before, but this is just how art develops: Someone does something and then the next person pushes that even further and further - I still think in terms of platforming Ori is one of the best games out there in the genre and this time the goal was to do the same for combat... and everything else :D

Just to be clear and probably a dumb a dumb question, but will this game still have the wild traversal/platforming stuff from Blind Forest?
 

thomasmahler

Game Director at Moon Studios
Verified
Oct 27, 2017
1,097
Vienna / Austria
Just to be clear and probably a dumb a dumb question, but will this game still have the wild traversal/platforming stuff from Blind Forest?

Of course. Just because we decided to drastically improve the combat system doesn't mean we didn't have a go at further improving the platforming aspects :)

Ori and the Blind Forest had an extremely strong focus on Platforming and that's still true for Will of the Wisps since the way you traverse levels will again be very 'Ori' - Only now the way you deal with enemies and the likes will be much more varied than before. Design-wise, our goal is for all the stuff you can do to really work together, so that you can also use combat moves for platforming and use platforming within the combat, like in the way you dash away from enemies right when they show their tell or dash into the enemies and then immediately queue into an attack, etc. I don't think we're taking anything away that Blind Forest had, so no worries.
 

Dancrane212

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,962
Yup! Alex was working for Square for the last 20 Years or so and I stumbled over this interview by USGamer a while ago:

https://www.usgamer.net/articles/vagrant-story-localization

...and immediately reached out to him cause I always loved his style of writing. He's an incredibly cool, passionate dude and I'm super proud having Alex be part of Moon Studios now :)

I recently picked up Crimson Shroud again and, yeah, his work is still phenomenal.
 

TheYanger

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
10,140
While the first Ori is a solid game, I personally thought it was terrible as a Metroidvania. When a developer thinks that streamlining progress to avoid backtracking is what's needed, it goes entirely against what I what as a huge fan of these games. Exploration is number one for me, and Hollow Knight is the new Gold standard, with new and expansive extra areas around every corner. I'm obviously the outlier here but that's my two cents.
I question whether you've played Ori, it has PLENTY of 'stuff' in previous areas and exploration involved, streamlining to avoid backtracking just means you don't need to spend 30 minutes walking through screens you've already mastered just to get somewhere, it doesn't mean that there isn't anything to do in those screens if you want to explore them. There is a huge difference between those two things.

The 'aha!' moment (which is the perfect way to describe the inherent value of the genre, Thomas) lets you have more immediacy with going back to try the thing you just had an epiphany about, THAT is what eliminating backtracking does. Where many games you have that moment, and then spend 20-30 minutes heading over to do that thing you wanted to do. Which sucks.
 

pswii60

Member
Oct 27, 2017
26,667
The Milky Way
I question whether you've played Ori, it has PLENTY of 'stuff' in previous areas and exploration involved, streamlining to avoid backtracking just means you don't need to spend 30 minutes walking through screens you've already mastered just to get somewhere, it doesn't mean that there isn't anything to do in those screens if you want to explore them. There is a huge difference between those two things.

The 'aha!' moment (which is the perfect way to describe the inherent value of the genre, Thomas) lets you have more immediacy with going back to try the thing you just had an epiphany about, THAT is what eliminating backtracking does. Where many games you have that moment, and then spend 20-30 minutes heading over to do that thing you wanted to do. Which sucks.
Yeah I agree with this. Ori doesn't force loads of backtracking, but if you do decide to backtrack and explore, there are plenty of new things to see and discover with your new abilities.
 

Jeffrey Guang

Member
Nov 4, 2017
724
Taiwn
I still think in terms of platforming Ori is one of the best games out there in the genre and this time the goal was to do the same for combat... and everything else :D

Wow, thanks for the reply! I am so hype about this game!.
The platforming was so smooth for the first game! Best platformer I've ever played! And I've played A LOT of them. The mechanics of using enemy's weapon to traverse is just brilliant.
 

fiskyfisko

Member
Mar 23, 2018
182
I hope WotW will have much wider range of emotions, ori was such a tryhard cryfest. I don't even remember a game that pretty much forced their players to shed a tear in first 10mins of gameplay. But maybe that's just me, I'm pretty weak, I didn't even see the ending for the first time because of how teary my eyes were.

The sequal scares me because i don't wanna be crying again all the time.
 

TheIlliterati

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
4,782
I question whether you've played Ori, it has PLENTY of 'stuff' in previous areas and exploration involved, streamlining to avoid backtracking just means you don't need to spend 30 minutes walking through screens you've already mastered just to get somewhere, it doesn't mean that there isn't anything to do in those screens if you want to explore them. There is a huge difference between those two things.

The 'aha!' moment (which is the perfect way to describe the inherent value of the genre, Thomas) lets you have more immediacy with going back to try the thing you just had an epiphany about, THAT is what eliminating backtracking does. Where many games you have that moment, and then spend 20-30 minutes heading over to do that thing you wanted to do. Which sucks.
You back track to find a tiny area with an orb or health upgrade that takes a second or two but doesn't ever contain anything interesting. If you mainline Ori you will miss nothing interesting or useful.
 

TheIlliterati

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
4,782
So in other words, you miss mostly the same stuff you miss in all of these games.
I specifically said Hollow Knight is the new gold standard. You can beat that game without seeing tons upon ton of areas and countless hours and bosses uncompleted. I want expansive exploration. Axiom Verge too was mentioned in the interview, which has incredibly well hidden and unique secrets. If Ori 2 will somehow shift to this direction I will be encouraged but I doubt it. However, both of those games are specifically called out and I am using them as examples of what I want which Ori did not have.
 

ThisIsMyDogKyle

Prophet of Truth - One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,136
It will be very hard for it to be beat Hollow Knight for me but the first one is definitely one of the best in the genre so I could see them doing it.
 

TheYanger

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
10,140
I specifically said Hollow Knight is the new gold standard. You can beat that game without seeing tons upon ton of areas and countless hours and bosses uncompleted. I want expansive exploration. Axiom Verge too was mentioned in the interview, which has incredibly well hidden and unique secrets. If Ori 2 will somehow shift to this direction I will be encouraged but I doubt it. However, both of those games are specifically called out and I am using them as examples of what I want which Ori did not have.
You called out backtracking and acted like it precluded exploration, which I demonstrated it does not. If you meant something else, it's not what you said that I responded to.

You're basically saying you didn't like the things you find when you explore, that's not the same thing as not being able to explore and find new places to use your abilities, which IS core to metroidvania I agree.
 

R.T Straker

Chicken Chaser
Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,715
It will be very intresting to see this game post Hollow Knight and how it stacks up compared to it.

Good luck.
 

Deleted member 36578

Dec 21, 2017
26,561
I'm super hyped for Ori 2!!!!! However, this interview really feels disingenuous to me for some reason. Like it's far to hyperbolic and and reads like some pr marketing junk. I'm expecting the game to be awesome but not genre defining or earth shattering. The devs should be a little more humble and modest imo.
 

EJS

The Fallen - Self Requested Ban
Banned
Oct 31, 2017
9,176
Probably my most hyped game of 2019 thus far. Loved the original.
 

Xiaomi

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,237
It's funny to think that when Hollow knight was released one of the Moon studio's dev was quite negative about it on neogaf, calling the game a bad metroidvania (don't remember exactly what he said). Super excited for this.

I remember that. Reasons given included that there weren't enough upgrades in HK. This was in 2017 so Hollow Knight didn't really have the awareness it does now. It was a shame because that attitude put me off of Ori for a long time, when it seems like the majority of its devs are chill people.
 

Rizific

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,948
got a ways to go to overtake hollow knight, but i dont doubt they can do it just judging by those gifs. ori is a fantastic game, but i thought it's "combat" was severely lacking.
 

leng jai

Member
Nov 2, 2017
15,117
Owned the original for a year but never played it. Playing Hollow Knight and now seeing this might inspire me to go back to it.
 

Kyuur

Member
Oct 28, 2017
2,533
Canada
"Vania" RPG elements are always the weakest part of any competent Metroidvania for me, so I hope they don't focus too much on the shards stuff. Through Aquaria / SotN / Ori1 / Hollow Knight I never really felt the need to go back and experiment a bunch, I'd just find something that worked and go with it.
 
OP
OP
Pepin

Pepin

Member
Oct 27, 2017
281
London
It'll be very interesting to me to see how people will react to the story this time. We definitely did try to make the world whole and to elevate what we started with Blind Forest to a whole new level. We actually hired Alexander O. Smith (if you don't know who he is, he has his own Wikipedia page ;)) a while ago to help us with the writing process, he's working on Ori and our yet-to-be-announced project. We finished writing the overall storyline last year and at our Team Retreat there's already been lots of tears. We never consciously try to tell sad stories, but since Ori is all about telling these allegorical tales, I think it's easy for people to identify with our characters.

I didn't realise this! That's an amazing hire, well done! I think even by including more NPCs that are woven into the game and story, there's a different level of interaction this time that we didn't get with BF.

Super keen to see where this leads, best of luck with the rest of development!
 

Phabh

Member
Oct 28, 2017
3,701
Good luck! The first game, while excellent, is a poor example of a Metroidvania game. The exploration part was lacking, it was very linear with few secrets.
 

lvl 99 Pixel

Member
Oct 25, 2017
44,652
Ori 1 is a great game, but Hollow Knight is better. Just be prepared for that potential let-down.

Of course its subjective, and I felt Ori was a better game in every aspect other than the combat elements and if you enjoy optional challenges. It looks like the fighting in the new game is going to be interesting.
 

yap

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
8,881
Perfect it so well, we'll have to start calling the genre Oritroidvania.

jk looking forward to it ofc