No, I thought it was for people to talk about BP, it's impact and how it made them feel. It seems though some people are more content to simply pick fights with a small subset of opinions they don't like. It went off the rails on page one when some posters decided to completely ignore the OPs eloquent post in favour of rubbing their hands in gleeful anticipation of telling some people to fuck off.
You don't have to give a fuck about anyone else's opinion on anything. When you disagree with someone, you can choose to ignore it, or counter their opinion. Most of us left the 3rd option - yeah well nobody gives a fuck about your opinion anyway - behind in grade school.
The only one that ever touched on real racial injustices during real right wing racist movements. I was honetly shocked Marvel Ok'd it tbh.Marvel makes shitty villains. Yet here we are still discussing Kilmonger. I have yet to see another villain spark up as much discussion as he has.
Alfie Allen was John Wick's primary target, an adult, who had stolen his car, and killed his dog. The movie was very clear about it. He killed the rest of the mafia because they got in his way. Killmonger said, if IMDB is accurate -
From this we can see Killmonger's primary objective was to arm the oppressed so they can rise up against their oppressors. Black oppression is his primary motivator, but black liberation is not his only goal; it seems the liberation of all oppressed peoples is in there, too. But I don't see how you can see this killing the oppressor's children line and not think of actual, younger children.
Alfie Allen was John Wick's primary target, an adult, who had stolen his car, and killed his dog. The movie was very clear about it. He killed the rest of the mafia because they got in his way. Killmonger said, if IMDB is accurate -
From this we can see Killmonger's primary objective was to arm the oppressed so they can rise up against their oppressors. Black oppression is his primary motivator, but black liberation is not his only goal; it seems the liberation of all oppressed peoples is in there, too. But I don't see how you can see this killing the oppressor's children line and not think of actual, younger children.
But what is the actual issue here, that Killmonger literally wanted guns aimed at little kids, or that some white people who are critical of his goals (that the movie is explicitly against) are putting themselves in the shoes of the oppressor? Because what I assume is that he'd want to prevent their heirs (who are likely already in positions of power) from replacing them, not that he wants to actually kill defenseless children, because we know he's obviously smart enough to know that little children are not part of the immediate threat to oppressed people.
Without naming names, is it that hard to think that the child of an oppressor is also an adult. Just thinking about one person people hate and his 40 year old children.Alfie Allen was John Wick's primary target, an adult, who had stolen his car, and killed his dog. The movie was very clear about it. He killed the rest of the mafia because they got in his way. Killmonger said, if IMDB is accurate -
From this we can see Killmonger's primary objective was to arm the oppressed so they can rise up against their oppressors. Black oppression is his primary motivator, but black liberation is not his only goal; it seems the liberation of all oppressed peoples is in there, too. But I don't see how you can see this killing the oppressor's children line and not think of actual, younger children.
But what is the actual issue here, that Killmonger literally wanted guns aimed at little kids, or that some white people who are critical of his goals (that the movie is explicitly against) are putting themselves in the shoes of the oppressor? Because what I assume is that he'd want to prevent their heirs (who are likely already in positions of power) from replacing them, not that he wants to actually kill defenseless children, because we know he's obviously smart enough to know that little children are not part of the immediate threat to oppressed people.
Well, yeah, that's not where my mind went at all. I saw the line in the context of Killmonger being super ruthless to advance his goals. he's smart enough to know kids don't pose a threat, but when I hear the line, I go back to his previous actions, which is lots of murder. When he says "They'll arm oppressed people all over the world... so they can finally rise up and kill those in power. And their children." I'm taking it at face value. It's not a huge leap to think "I'm gonna arm people so they can kill their oppressors and their children" means he wants the people he arms to kill oppressors and their children. Like I said before, my theory is the screenwriters added that line so the audience stays on T'Challa's side. If they make Killmonger too sympathetic it would undercut the main characters personal growth. They wanted the movie to end, and the audience come away from it thinking "Black Panther made the right choice," not "Man, BP didn't go far enough." They wanted a sympathetic villain, but simple and easily digestible themes and character development.Without naming names, is it that hard to think that the child of an oppressor is also an adult. Just thinking about one person people hate and his 40 year old children.
Your imagination is the only issue here, not the line.
Marvel makes shitty villains. Yet here we are still discussing Kilmonger. I have yet to see another villain spark up as much discussion as he has.
I see a lot of people thinking Kilmonger's plan was stupid. The funny thing is Vulture was selling high tech weapons for money to support his family. Yet I see his plan get more praise than Kilmonger's eventhough he's creating a future where his family can live in an unsafe world.
The entire infrastructure of the U.S. is pretty much built on it.I'm always amazed by how powerful white fear of black retribution is.
One person maybe kinda said that if you squint yet you're acting like thats some sort of prevailing sentiment that needs rebuffing.Yeah this "blacks liking Kilmonger are the real racists" thing is the new "Wakanda is an alt right ethnostate"
Enough trolls are just going to keep repeating it to get idiots to believe it regardless of all well reasoned arguments that refute the nonsense
Too bad Black Panther did so well, assholes. See you for the sequels
One person maybe kinda said that if you squint yet you're acting like thats some sort of prevailing sentiment that needs rebuffing.
If you don't want to betone policedcorrected, stop jumping at shadows.
"Killmonger is a genicidal maniac" ain't exactly a hot fucking take - he's the bad guy remember? - yet nobody in this thread is suggesting "black people are the real racists for liking him" so there's your correction.How exactly have you corrected me, Uardo?
You keep talking about discussion by dancing around it. Actually make a point or shut the fuck up.
There is now literally two pages correcting the sentiment that you said wasn't a shitty opinion rooted in a bad place but you avoided explaining how isn't it rooted in racism, why? Because it's been well explained by 5+ people and you don't have the wits to rub together to form a decent argument, so you troll like an edgy child
You keep ignoring all these points of discussion to play shitbag backseat moderator with no opinion beside that other people are allowed to repeatedly post ridiculous unsubstantiated opinions and maintain them in the face well reasoned arguments.
Seriously, engage in the discussion or shut the fuck up already
"Killmonger is a genicidal maniac" ain't exactly a hot fucking take - he's the bad guy remember? - yet nobody in this thread is suggesting "black people are the real racists for liking him" so there's your correction.
I've applauded the OP for his story, I've expressed my admiration for the movie, and I've clearly stated my understanding of just how important the movie is.
I have engaged.
What I don't think anyone should have to engage with, is this garbage notion that any criticism of the movie is perpetuated by racists.
If you disagree with whiskas_fanatic I'm not trying to change your mind. But spare the melodrama.
This:You can't even answer basic questions like "what have you corrected me on?"
Isn't really happening. You're the one creating the boogie man and I don't understand why?Yeah this "blacks liking Kilmonger are the real racists" thing is the new "Wakanda is an alt right ethnostate"
Enough trolls are just going to keep repeating it to get idiots to believe it regardless of all well reasoned arguments that refute the nonsense
Hey look at that, he didn't say shit about the skin color of the people he wanted to kill. He talks about black people starting revolutions but nothing about any other race.
He is talking about oppressors not any specific race but since you think he is, which race is he referring to? If he was talking about a specific race, why do you think he didn't just come out and say it?
How you get banned while I'm sleep but claim I'm the mad one?
Smh
whiskas_fanatic last time I checked, alot of black children were slaughtered throughout actual history. You know, actual blood, actual lives lost. Still continues in the modern day when Trayvonn couldn't get his snacks and walk home. Micahel Brown couldn't make it home from the store. John Crawford got swatted at Walmart. The list continues on and on.
So forgive us if fictional white children ain't really that super high of importance. That response you're having to that line? We wish people gave a 1/4 of that energy when it comes to our lives, you know in actual reality (not a film). Hence why Killmonger (a villian mind you) is so invigorating to watch. Because he's had enough and he's the embodiment of Black Anger. He's the response when nobody gave a damn about our children in the first place.
All of our dead kids got scorn and a bunch of "they deserved it" claims.
Keep in mind, TChalla saved those fictional white kids, I'm sure they will be fine.
I find it hard to care about people being fans of Killmonger when one of the most popular film characters is a fascist, genocidal white man with the power to choke people from a distance and force them to do as he bids. If black people were going to be "radicalized" killing white children, we had myriad opportunities before the introduction of Black Panther. People who are scared by people being fans of Killmonger should admit what they're really afraid of and not hide their "concerns" behind stressing over a fictional character.
Jesus fucking Christ!
Nobody likes Killmonger because they wanted him to kill white babies. The fucking movie denounces his methods. Is it that surprising that people would relate to a character who is based on the historical perspective of slave descendants?
Media is filled with characters with questionable morals who are popular because audiences relate to them in some way. Look at how people love mobster movies, for example.
People love a good villain. One who goes outside the boundaries of society. One they can understand even if they dont agree with their morals or methods. This has been a thing in stories since forever. We've had decades of white villains in white dominated media who connect to people on some personal level.
No one is thinking of killing you or your white babies.
Stop dancing around what you mean and tell who he's talking about.
He talks of arming "oppressed people" does he not? Are people in countries with dictators not oppressed? Would he not send weapons to the citizens of North Korea, how about Syrian citizens or any other country ruled by a dictator?
You think he's was only going to arm black people around the world, even in place where there are no black people?
Now as far as the "and their children" line, I interpreted it as him talking about killing the children of dictators who often times succeed their parents as the de facto rulers of a country.
See you expected this movie to be anti-white and your misinterpretation of Killmonger confirmed that bias for you.
Villain of a movie says and does villainous things that are morally reprehensible because he thinks he's the good guy .
Someone stop the presses for this revolutionary concept
Now tell me what is the actual issue with that? People unironically say Walter White was right. People unironically idolize Tony Soprano. People unironically empathize with Kylo Ren. Unless there's an actual white hunting group of black people around, I'm not sure what there is to stress over. Killmonger isn't about to incite a race war. Unless someone actually threatened you then like I said before, you should be analyzing why Killmonger in specific stresses you out when there are villains throughout media who've said/done worse and yet are still counted as idols.
I'm always amazed by how powerful white fear of black retribution is.
I think the response that Killmonger brings out from white audiences is rather facinating.
To expand on EdibleKnife s excellent point, if Darth Vader and Erik were able to be manifested in reality, you would find alot of White people actively interacting with Vader, completely ignoring his depiction of being a facist space Nazi.
And that's mainly because though he's a villian, he's depicted to be cool. With iconic characteristics and mannerisms.
When it comes to Erik, I'm seeing White people respond with actual fear, almost like a horror movie monster. He depiction is somewhat monstrous. He cares about nothing. Until.... You see that he did care about the loss of his father. He cared about loss in general. Everything his people lost.
But whats interesting is how that gets ignored for white audiences as they latch on to his anger and his imposing prescence.
There is a real fear of black retaliation. Because alot of white people know the score is woefully uneven and do everything in their power to maintain the order because of the idea that what was done would be done onto them.
It's really fascinating
Killmonger was, on some level, right. It's why T'Challa goes from being neutral on Wakanda coming out of hiding and giving foreign aid.
Loki is a murderous, power-hungry maniac but people like and relate to to his experience of feeling inadequate next to his sibling and thinking he doesn't belong among his family. Plus, he's charismatic.
Vulture steals, sells weapons on the black market, threatens a teenage Peter and tries to kill him. But people understand his perspective of stealing from the rich after getting screwed over despite playing by the rules.
Magneto is probably the closest to Killmonger as a villain. A Jewish concentration camp/genocide survivor, he's both villain and hero to his people. As much a freedom fighter as he is a terrorist.
Killmonger murders people, violently assaults women and seeks world domination and the movie condems him for that. But he is also a vehicle for the story of slave descendants in the West who who've lived under the oppression of white supremacy.
He has just as much right to exist in our media as much as any other villain and people have just as much right to relate to his background, fustration and pain as much as people have related to any other villain, regardless of how much it strokes your white fear.
You do know that Killmonger is the VILLAIN, right?
Like why does Killmonger bother some people so damn much? He's a bad person. He does bad things. He has bad thoughts. But most importantly, he DIED because of the consequences of his actions.
Fuck, notice how Mangeto doesn't get this much flack despite basically being Killmonger Original Version. Fuck, Ultron doesn't catch flack for his "kill all humans" stance.
To bring this back around on topic, your point also speaks to why representation is so important because audiences aren't really numb to a black power fantasy. When a John Wick comes around it's really only special because of it's style but not it's content, because ultimately it's just another white guy kills everybody who did him wrong movie, and we've been getting those forever. A Kill bill happens and we appreciate the novelty of it because female power fantasies of that nature are a little more rare. People will unironically root for these mass murderers and not think twice about it because it's not really upsetting the status quo and we don't overtly connect it with the potential for real world violence.
When Black Panther pops off and there's this cultural explosion, it owes a lot to the power fantasy aspect, not only as far as Killmonger is concerned, but T'Challa as a king, Okoye as a warrior, Shuri as a scientist, and Wakanda as a wealthy nation. That some people would get hung up on Killmonger when the majority of the power on display is actually on the side of the protagonists highlights the problem of a lack representation. Some people could just roll with Killmonger the way they would John Wick or The Bride, but that shock to the system tugs at those racial biases to the point that it manifests a real discomfort - a discomfort that largely isn't present when white killers do and say the same kinds of things, because of the numbness that results from an imbalance of representation on their side.
He hits too close too home for some people and that's the long and short of it. Like multiple posters have pointed out, the people who bray over how "dangerous" he is and how they "worried" about how fans like him is that they're personally deeply afraid of black retribution in general. They don't think black people can enjoy a character motivated by actual hurt without influencing us to make their nightmare scenario of white oppression come true. So they hide their intentions and chide Killmonger fans and insinuate something dangerous about them, ignoring the character's context and framing in the story and invent foolish nonsense about him being somehow more harmful than the multitude of white villains (and even heroes) who've said and done much worse throughout the media landscape.
Thank you! I was just thinking about Turner while I was reading through this topic. The idea that systems of white supremacy and oppression created the oppressors worst nightmare but there's zero acknowledgement from them of the role they played. As though Turner or characters reflecting him like Killmonger exist in a vacuum. They dodge the context because it brings up more troubling questions about what/who pushed them to that point. People who "fear" Killmonger need a lot of self reflection as to what makes him an eyesore.
China is now doing taking advantage of Africa. Do they fit in the same race and skin color as the whites you think he is specifically talking about?
Half of Italy has dark skin tones. Are they considered white?
Why do you think he is only going to attack America? There's other countries invloved, like the Ottoman Empire, Portugal, Spain.
I guess Germany, Belgium, UK, and France fit the mold.
Kilmonger wasn't just attacking white countries, He was on a mission to have Wakanda rule the world.
Christ almighty mate, I directly replied to a post you made and you replied back so we continued to engage. That's what a discussion board is for. I don't even know what gaslighting even means. It isn't that serious.Eduardo Corrochio Then why would all of these posters make these posts? Why haven't you engaged them instead of gaslighting me?
Christ almighty mate, I directly replied to a post you made and you replied back so we continued to engage. That's what a discussion board is for. I don't even know what gaslighting even means. It isn't that serious.
Eduardo Corrochio Then why would all of these posters make these posts? Why haven't you engaged them instead of gaslighting me?
Laughing Banana posted "shaking me head about people supporting how Killmonger did things" AFTER all these well thought out posts that you keep ignoring
What's the value in overly criticizing this particular antagonist, really? You want us to know that Killmonger was the bad guy Eduardo Corrochio? Tell us in the context of all these posts why the fuck you think you need to tell us that and why he's different from any other complex villain that people like
Woah, I made that comment without even aware of the bickering you two have done in this thread. Is it really that much of a controversial thing to say? To think how Killmongers did stuff in the movie was really really wrong?
He's a classic Villains with Noble Intentions Doing Things the Wrong Way trope.
It was a non-sequitur comment that you admit you made without reading the thread. Lol at "bickering"... *jerk off motion*
No one really supports Kilmonger to the point where this concern you all have about his popularity. Please read through the quoted posts to understand why your comment wasn't controversial just stupid, all things considered
10+ different posters make detailed well explained and reasoned posts speaking to a specific point and you came in with a one sentence non sequitur shitpost repling to nobody in particular
It's not that your post was controversial, just dumb and out of the blue
Goddamn, I never thought me making a comment about how Killmonger is a bad dude ends up with me being called dumb today, I didn't even think it's that much of a weird position to take.
You seem to invent intentions for me that I don't even have when I made that post. Lighten up a bit.
Or you can smarten up and read the thread before you post next time?
Really, saying the bad guy was a bad guy isn't some particularly enlightening comment that creates a lot of discussion and in context of the direction of the discussion in this thread, you should be able to admit it was a dumb comment
Agreed, one could argue it's the most feminist superhero film so far.First BP is awesome. I agree with the OP that it was about time there was more inclusion.
But as a woman nerd, I want to add that all the women in BP were something special. It was amazing to see country were women were truely equal.
This will probably be dismissed cause "women are in alot of things". But not like this.
These are women are peers, not love interest like Pepper and Jane. Not torture assasins who had no choice in their life like Widow. Gamora and Wasp are pretty good, but they still are items of plot motivation for Starlord and Antman. Agent Carter had to fight against sexism of her time.
Okoye, Nakia, and Shuri just are. They are not choosen ones, they are heroes on their own merits. Consern aimed towards the is love for family and friends- not because they are incapable of protecting themselves.
Wonder women was great, but I can't be a demigod.
The only reason I'm not saying "white" is because there were definitely some colonizers who are not white (but not black either). Still, he opposed them to black people, so I'm still think you know pefrectly fine who is he talking about. Also, neither NK nor black dictators weren't mentioned or showed in movie, and only example of opressed people that was illustrated takes place in America. I'm not sure what I can add here that won't be concidered as further thread derailment. But please answer honestly, do you think children of opressors deserve to die?Still not brave enough to actually say white people, huh? If you're going to be disingenuous the least you can do is not be a coward about it.
So you really think he wouldn't have sent weapons to countries in Africa with black dictators?
I get it, you had no desire to see this movie (which I still don't think you've seen) because of whatever bias you hold and no amount discussion will change your belief that this movie is anti-white. I'm done entertaining your nonsense.
Why you feel the need to bring negative white characters, when we are talking about negative black character, especially if you don't think skin color is an issue here? Walter White whiteness has nothing to do with him being an asshole. But character we are talking about want his followers to kill children, and there is lot of people irl who are thinking he was right. That exact part stresses me out.Now tell me what is the actual issue with that? People unironically say Walter White was right. People unironically idolize Tony Soprano. People unironically empathize with Kylo Ren. Unless there's an actual white hunting group of black people around, I'm not sure what there is to stress over. Killmonger isn't about to incite a race war. Unless someone actually threatened you then like I said before, you should be analyzing why Killmonger in specific stresses you out when there are villains throughout media who've said/done worse and yet are still counted as idols.
That's your fantasy. I find Killmonger as character dangerous because alot of fans seem to completely agree with his plans and actions no matter what. Also if you sympathyze some Killmongers ideas, while downplaying or ignoring the others - that's radicalisation to me, and that's why I think he is dangerous. You somehow seem to think I can't criticize him, but that's not true. Everyone can criticize anyone else, Killmonger is same comic character as Green Goblin, but unlike Green Goblin's his ideas are really dangegous.He hits too close too home for some people and that's the long and short of it. Like multiple posters have pointed out, the people who bray over how "dangerous" he is and how they "worried" about how fans like him is that they're personally deeply afraid of black retribution in general. They don't think black people can enjoy a character motivated by actual hurt without influencing us to make their nightmare scenario of white oppression come true. So they hide their intentions and chide Killmonger fans and insinuate something dangerous about them, ignoring the character's context and framing in the story and invent foolish nonsense about him being somehow more harmful than the multitude of white villains (and even heroes) who've said and done much worse throughout the media landscape.
So even though there were colonizers that weren't white, you think he is only out to kill white people? Do you think it was all white people or some white people?The only reason I'm not saying "white" is because there were definitely some colonizers who are not white (but not black either). Still, he opposed them to black people, so I'm still think you know pefrectly fine who is he talking about. Also, neither NK nor black dictators weren't mentioned or showed in movie, and only example of opressed people that was illustrated takes place in America. I'm not sure what I can add here that won't be concidered as further thread derailment. But please answer honestly, do you think children of opressors deserve to die?
TL;DR:
Black Panther is awesome. Don't hate on it. It means alot to us black nerds damnit. Also sorry for possible spelling errors. On my phone.
Is it your turn to dance around now? Don't ignore my question - is it ok to kill children of opressors?So even though there were colonizers that weren't white, you think he is only out to kill white people? Do you think it was all white people or some white people?
In the quote you posted to show that Erik was some scary racist negro, did he not mention nations all over the earth. Are black nations and North Korean not part of the "earth?"
I really don't think you actually saw this movie.
I'm going to mention this thread again, where multiple people explicitely telling that yes, they will follow Killmonger's plan if it happens in reality. How that speaks for my mind?A lot of great villains are great because there is a kernel of "they not right but they are not wrong either" in them. It's what the villain does with that makes him a villain. If you are scared one movie is going to cause marginalized people to raise up and start slaughtering children, that speaks more to your state of mind then the movie itself. Hollywood been making black pain movies for decades and Nate Turner The Generation hasn't appeared yet.
That you are worried about people sparking a revolution if a dude leaped from the pages of fiction and started handing out laser spears and forcefield cloaks? People also said they will join up with Magneto and Dr.Doom. But I am not worried about a holocaust survivor chucking meteors at children or a Romany Gypsy taking over a eastern European country so he can have diplomatic immunity to fuck with his ex college roommateIs it your turn to dance around now? Don't ignore my question - is it ok to kill children of opressors?
And I'll just repeat, he's talking about black people at begin of speech, opposes oppressors and colonizers to them in the middle, and wants to kill their children in the end. If he didn't specifically mentioned black people, maybe you could spin it in that unharmful way that you want him to be seen.
I'm going to mention this thread again, where multiple people explicitely telling that yes, they will follow Killmonger's plan if it happens in reality. How that speaks for my mind?
I am not dancing around anything, I didn't answer it because it's a stupid fucking question. He is a villain and he said and did some villainous shit, when did I say it was okay to kill children.Is it your turn to dance around now? Don't ignore my question - is it ok to kill children of opressors?
And I'll just repeat, he's talking about black people at begin of speech, opposes oppressors and colonizers to them in the middle, and wants to kill their children in the end. If he didn't specifically mentioned black people, maybe you could spin it in that unharmful way that you want him to be seen.
Read your own post with a quote from the movie.Enzom21 again, please notice how everyone in that thread understands perfectly that it were black people and people of color who was meant to recieve weapons. Not a word about North Korea surprisingly (not really)!
Elegant Weapon you have this murderous maniac piece of shit on avatar and trying to insult me troughout whole thread. Here is reality check for you and other "white fragility" and "this movie is not for you" (bullshit, movies are for everyone) assholes: you are judging me not because criticism, but because of my skin color. That's racism right here, think about it.