It's 2018, is The Wire still the best TV show ever made?

Son Goku · Jul 9, 2018

Krejlooc said:
The 9th graders themselves are different, because their entire world has been different from the get go. It's seriously incomparable. They are jaded as hell by the time they get to the 9th grade, because literally every adult in their life has failed them. And you know who are the ones who "give a shit" to them early on? It's the drug dealers. Like when the drug dealer comes by and pays for all their school clothing. We are products of the environment we grow up in.

Are you speaking from experience or perception?

Also i just get fed up with that at least the way the show presents it. Break free from your environment or change it. Don't accept the tricks of the drug dealers and always give the people who are trying to help a chance. Understand that they're trying to keep their job too. You gotta start the good will on one side or the other and if the adults don't seem to be doing it unfortunately it's up to the kids sometimes

Bigjig · Jul 9, 2018

Yes, though for me Band of Brothers comes close

NinjaScooter · Jul 9, 2018

No the Sopranos is better. Followed by City Guys.

KrigareN- · Jul 9, 2018

The Last Airbender and LOST.

I haven't watched The Wire though.

Deleted member 12790 · Jul 9, 2018

Son Goku said:
Are you speaking from experience or perception?

My sister was a social worker out of college, and in summers I would go with her to the projects in Galveston because she is 4'11" and felt unsafe doing her job. Seeing those ghettos in person, in real life, changes you forever. Yes, I've seen the types of places depicted in The Wire in real life. Thats why I was saying, yes, they are real. She worked with mothers on welfare with disabled children. We'd have to go and check on the welfare of the children to make sure the children weren't being taken advantage of. We saw some really awful shit due to addiction.

Break free from your environment or change it.

Neither of these options are realistically possible. The point of the show is to show you that they aren't possible not because of a single decision from a single person, but because the entire system is set up this way. It really is a trap.

MeaningOfKarma · Jul 9, 2018

Every time I rewatch The Wire, I feel like I'm watching it for the first time.

It's a very, very good show.

sph3re said:
There is not a single anime in history that was, is, or ever will be, better than the best Western television show. FMA: Brotherhood was an incredible watch, but to put it above something like Breaking Bad or Mr. Robot is objectively wrong.

Or The Wire I guess, I've never watched it, but I heard Era say it was good so it's probably good.

This is like saying that Mexican cuisine will never be as good as French cuisine because you once ate a burrito at chipotle and it wasn't anything special.

Son Goku · Jul 9, 2018

Krejlooc said:
My sister was a social worker out of college, and in summers I would go with her to the projects in Galveston because she is 4'11" and felt unsafe doing her job. Seeing those ghettos in person, in real life, changes you forever. Yes, I've seen the types of places depicted in The Wire in real life. Thats why I was saying, yes, they are real. She worked with mothers on welfare with disabled children. We'd have to go and check on the welfare of the children to make sure the children weren't being taken advantage of. We saw some really awful shit due to addiction.

Neither of these options are realistically possible. The point of the show is to show you that they aren't possible not because of a single decision from a single person, but because the entire system is set up this way. It really is a trap.

They had multiple opportunities on both sides to help fix that system. Things just happened to go wrong at the exact time the plot demanded it like when bubbles needed them to help with the guy messing up his cart and them being in the middle of an interrogation when he called so he lost faith.

And again I'm not sure why you keep saying they're real when I even said it first. That doesn't make for a better show for me. I get that it does for some who just want that story told but it's not my style so yeah not the greatest show ever for me

Deleted member 12790 · Jul 9, 2018

Son Goku said:
They had multiple opportunities on both sides to help fix that system. Things just happened to go wrong at the exact time the plot demanded it like when bubbles needed them to help with the guy messing up his cart and them being in the middle of an interrogation when he called so he lost faith.

And again I'm not sure why you keep saying they're real when I even said it first. That doesn't make for a better show for me. I get that it does for some who just want that story told but it's not my style so yeah not the greatest show ever for me

I'm saying it's real because, for example, in your first paragraph, you think the failings of the police are just convenient plot devices. I'm saying they aren't. That shit actually happens. The entire point of the series is about how trapped these people are in the system, and you clearly don't get it. I'm saying it's real because at this point all I can assume is you think those kinds of "convenient" moments don't happen. If not one thing, it's another. It's an entire system to keep people down. It's not a single moment.

NinjaScooter · Jul 9, 2018

Krejlooc said:
Also it's pretty amazing how the show makes Omar, a gay criminal, into one of the best, most badass characters to ever grace TV. Omar was complex, but fuck that dude was so cool.

"The cheese stands alone."

Like ask anybody who has seen the wire to name their favorite character, and the answer is universally Omar.

I remember being pissed about how the way Omar went out, and that he wouldn't get the payoff revenge against Barksdale/Stringer, but eventually you realize that it's a fitting storyline. Like this shit isn't supposed to have happy or gratifying endings.

Einchy · Jul 9, 2018

Game of Thrones and Breaking Bad edge it out for me but ain't nothing crazy about thinking it's the best ever. It's timeless.

Deleted member 12790 · Jul 9, 2018

NinjaScooter said:
I remember being pissed about how the way Omar went out, and that he wouldn't get the payoff revenge against Barksdale/Stringer, but eventually you realize that it's a fitting storyline. Like this shit isn't supposed to have happy or gratifying endings.

So many of the deaths got to me in that show. Wallace's death destroyed me. Poor kid didn't deserve that. And then, amazingly, Bodies death was tragic too. I hated him when he killed Wallace, but by the end, when he got killed, it also wrecked me. That moment when McNulty, in a fit of mutual respect, says "You're a soldier, Bodie." and Bodie replies "Hell yeah." That's such a badass back and forth. It's basically a eulogy for Bodie. Even took place in a cemetery. His revelation that the game is rigged is so on point. I fucking LOVE the imagery of the scene. Bodie talking about being a pawn on the chess board, and the scene beginning with him literally in the pawn's position, with the king looking down on him.

I knew the show was awesome when Omar and Avon got in that first shootout, and it was tense as hell, and I had no idea who I was supposed to "pull" for. I didn't want either to die in that moment, because I saw both of their perspectives. But they were both awful people. I was just gripped.

Son Goku · Jul 9, 2018

Krejlooc said:
I'm saying it's real because, for example, in your first paragraph, you think the failings of the police are just convenient plot devices. I'm saying they aren't. That shit actually happens. The entire point of the series is about how trapped these people are in the system, and you clearly don't get it. I'm saying it's real because at this point all I can assume is you think those kinds of "convenient" moments don't happen. If not one thing, it's another. It's an entire system to keep people down. It's not a single moment.

No I'm talking about the plot of the show and that's just one time! The things happen the exact wrong way just to keep things moving in these bad coincidences. That one I mentioned would have made everything turn out differently. You may be right about the system irl but I'm just talking about the plot of the show. And another thing I never said is those things don't happen irl. It's like you're taking all the times I talk about the show and making them about real life and then doing the reverse as well. In the show they rely on single moments. Of course I agree about the real life system not hinging on a single moment and I never hinted otherwise

Oh and Omar is great in boardwalk empire as well

Deleted member 12790 · Jul 9, 2018

Son Goku said:
No I'm talking about the plot of the show and that's just one time! The things happen the exact wrong way just to keep things moving in these bad coincidences. That one I mentioned would have made everything turn out differently. You may be right about the system irl but I'm just talking about the plot of the show. And another thing I never said is those things don't happen irl. It's like you're taking all the times I talk about the show and making them about real life and then doing the reverse as well. In the show they rely on single moments. Of course I agree about the real life system not hinging on a single moment and I never hinted otherwise

These single instances in the show wouldn't have ultimately changed much. Say Herc goes and beats the thug who keeps beating up Bubbles. He'd still be a homeless crack addict. His life wouldn't be any better. Say the cop doesn't drive away the time Randy's foster house is burned down. The point is they kept trying over and over again. Eventually someone will slip. It's inevitable. Thats why he tells them, "don't worry, you tried." The point is he realizes, in the 9th fucking grade, that there is no way out.

The ONLY person in the entire series who "gets out" only does so by reaching rock fucking bottom. That's the character you don't remember -- his walk up the stairs. The Wire shows just how hard it is to "get out." It's addiction man.

Son Goku · Jul 9, 2018

Krejlooc said:
These single instances in the show wouldn't have ultimately changed much. Say Herc goes and beats the thug who keeps beating up Bubbles. He'd still be a homeless crack addict. His life wouldn't be any better. Say the cop doesn't drive away the time Randy's foster house is burned down. The point is they kept trying over and over again. Eventually someone will slip. It's inevitable. Thats why he tells them, "don't worry, you tried." The point is he realizes, in the 9th fucking grade, that there is no way out.

The ONLY person in the entire series who "gets out" only does so by reaching rock fucking bottom. That's the character you don't remember -- his walk up the stairs. The Wire shows just how hard it is to "get out." It's addiction man.

Well he comes to that conclusion. It's not the only one he could have come to though. I remember bubbles just not his end. I remember someone was gonna write a newspaper story about him and obviously that situation. He got of drugs once and could do so again and had several other opportunities to expedite his departure. It's a messed up system but it's not impossible to break out of and those that give up and worse those who feed into it especially someone like stringers partner (don't remember his name) don't get a pass from me. Gotta come in making little changes not just give up and start to rely on the system you hate

Oh and of course I'm talking about both sides of "the game" here the cops are inexcusable here as well and the show doesn't make them sympathic either for me

Deleted member 12790 · Jul 9, 2018

Son Goku said:
Well he comes to that conclusion. It's not the only one he could have come to though. I remember bubbles just not his end. I remember someone was gonna write a newspaper story about him and obviously that situation. He got of drugs once and could do so again and had several other opportunities to expedite his departure. It's a messed up system but it's not impossible to break out of and those that give up and worse those who feed into it especially someone like stringers partner (don't remember his name) don't get a pass from me. Gotta come in making little changes not just give up and start to rely on the system you hate

So you're talking the kids in the school and not acting up in class, what is that going to change? No child left behind means they literally cannot stay and listen to the teacher that cares about them. At the end of the 4th season, the kids DID change. They behaved in Prezbo's class. They clamed down thanks to the therapy group, they were able to reintegrate into the class room. What happened? They still couldn't read. The system literally wouldn't let those who wanted to slow down and teach them to read do so. They're still living in the projects. What precisely do you see changing for them? How could they get out of their situation?

Son Goku · Jul 9, 2018

Krejlooc said:
So you're talking the kids in the school and not acting up in class, what is that going to change? No child left behind means they literally cannot stay and listen to the teacher that cares about them. At the end of the 4th season, the kids DID change. They behaved in Prezbo's class. They clamed down thanks to the therapy group, they were able to reintegrate into the class room. What happened? They still couldn't read. The system literally wouldn't let those who wanted to slow down and teach them to read do so. They're still living in the projects. What precisely do you see changing for them? How could they get out of their situation?

If one ring of the ladder could change then the rest could too. Just takes the right words and the right people at the right time. Small victories like that therapy group start the change

Edit: rung lol

Deleted member 12790 · Jul 9, 2018

Son Goku said:
If one ring of the ladder could change then the rest could too. Just takes the right words and the right people at the right time. Small victories like that therapy group start the change

You don't remember the end of Bubble's arc, so you don't remember his most poignant moment. He DOESN'T get over it. He doesn't really truly change. He's an addict forever. He carries his guilt with him for the rest of his life. He gives a speech about it. His redemption doesn't come from really, honestly getting out, so much as he learns to live with his guilt and manage it. Like he says, "aint no shame in holding onto grief, so long as you make room for the other things." He still lost the vast majority of his life. He'll fight his addiction till the day he dies. He'll remember he killed someone he truly cared about. Bubbles redemption is a personal one. But in the grand scheme of life, he doesn't really move all that far up. The "walk up the stairs" is a metaphorical elevation in his personal space, within his family, not society.

You seem to not get that there is an entire system in place. I'm saying straight up, no ambiguity - you are wrong. These kids literally cannot change. They are locked into their life. They are prisoners in their world. There are factors beyond their control and influence that keep them where they are.

Son Goku · Jul 9, 2018

Krejlooc said:
You don't remember the end of Bubble's arc, so you don't remember his most poignant moment. He DOESN'T get over it. He doesn't really truly change. He's an addict forever. He carries his guilt with him for the rest of his life. He gives a speech about it. His redemption doesn't come from really, honestly getting out, so much as he learns to live with his guilt and manage it. Like he says, "aint no shame in holding onto grief, so long as you make room for the other things." He still lost the vast majority of his life. He'll fight his addiction till the day he dies. He'll remember he killed someone he truly cared about. Bubbles redemption is a personal one. But in the grand scheme of life, he doesn't really move all that far up. The "walk up the stairs" is a metaphorical elevation in his personal space, within his family, not society.

You seem to not get that there is an entire system in place. I'm saying straight up, no ambiguity - you are wrong. These kids literally cannot change. They are locked into their life. They are prisoners in their world. There are factors beyond their control and influence that keep them where they are.

A rather fatalistic perspective but you're entitled to it

nachum00 · Jul 9, 2018

I love The Wire but I think it peaks during season 1. 2 and 4 are great but it just never feels as good as the 1st season.

Deleted member 12790 · Jul 9, 2018

Son Goku said:
A rather fatalistic perspective but you're entitled to it

you can call it fatalistic, you can call it depressingly realistic, but it's not something I sugar coat. The world sucks.

If we're being blunt, I think your "everyone can change if they try" perspective is overly optimistic. I'd love to believe it too. I just don't.

EDIT: Either way, nice conversation with you, I enjoyed the back and forth.

Yams · Jul 9, 2018

Son Goku · Jul 9, 2018

Krejlooc said:
you can call it fatalistic, you can call it depressingly realistic, but it's not something I sugar coat. The world sucks.

If we're being blunt, I think your "everyone can change if they try" perspective is overly optimistic. I'd love to believe it too. I just don't.

Parts of the world suck. Parts are great. It takes macro and micro changes to fix things but I think of it like this. If the world is truly doomed to suck, what does it hurt to try to change it? And if by some chance people and their time line up to make true change then it will take them all believing that it change to actually make it happen. If they don't have optimism they may never take advantage of that possible opportunity

Stiler · Jul 9, 2018

Yes, it's hard to beat. There are shows close to it, The Sopranos for instance, The Leftovers, and Seinfeld, among others.

The wire was just such a great show to the end and it felt "complete" when it ended, there was no huge dip in quality or anything.

Even coming back to it I recently rewatched it earlier this year and originally I thought season 2 was "eh" but this time around I actually quite enjoyed that season, it was a chang eof pace for sure but it all felt connected and tied in to even later seasons.

edit - We're including Band of Brothers? It was a mini series though.

If we are including those then I got to throw in Lonesome Dove as well as being up there, such a great mini series, and one of the best westerns of all time imo.

E.T. · Jul 9, 2018

The Wire
Curb
The Simpsons
Sunny in Philly
Married with Children

In no particular order.
Breaking Bad definitely deserves to be up there too. As does The Shield.

Game of Thrones is a well shot, high budget mess with some of the most awful acting, character development and writing to boot. Season one I will posit can stand up to most other shows though, best one hands down and it is all downhill from there.

MDSVeritas · Jul 9, 2018

Just because it's terribly under-watched I want to make sure Half and Catch Fire is thrown in the ring. It's a masterwork.

dead souls · Jul 9, 2018

Nameless said:
Nah. My take on The Wire has always been that I respect it more than I enjoy it. Structurally it's one of the most complex, impressive achievements in the medium's history but let's not pretend it isn't painfully boring, like a dry documentary, for stretches a time.

1. Mad Men
2. Breaking Bad
3. Deadwood

How can you call The Wire painfully boring at times and list Mad Men as your number one show? Talk about a show that lasted way too long and hit a lot of the same beats over and over. It's not even a contender in my book unless we're making a list of the most overrated shows of all time.

Alethiometer · Jul 9, 2018

Game of Thrones exists, so no.

Deleted member 18407 · Jul 9, 2018

It's pretty good but it's no Future Man.

E.T. · Jul 9, 2018

dead souls said:
How can you call The Wire painfully boring at times and list Mad Men as your number one show? Talk about a show that lasted way too long and hit a lot of the same beats over and over. It's not even a contender in my book unless we're making a list of the most overrated shows of all time.

Mad Men and Game of Thrones start off so fantastically and crater within a couple of seasons. Mad Men was much too drawn out and Thrones peaked with season one. For those reasons alone they probably would not even get a sniff at a top 25 shows of all time let alone top 10.

sanstesy · Jul 9, 2018

Sopranos is the best TV series ever made.

The Wire is very good, though, other than the latter part of season 5.

Powdered Egg · Jul 9, 2018

Marion Cobretti said:
Still number 1. Only Sopranos comes close.

Correct! Sopranos and The Wire are Tyson and Ali at their primes. Any other TV show is a distant # 3 at most.

Zocano · Jul 9, 2018

Son Goku said:
Also i just get fed up with that at least the way the show presents it. Break free from your environment or change it. Don't accept the tricks of the drug dealers and always give the people who are trying to help a chance. Understand that they're trying to keep their job too. You gotta start the good will on one side or the other and if the adults don't seem to be doing it unfortunately it's up to the kids sometimes

Read the whole discussion you had with Krej but this is the most important bit to respond to because:

This is some naive fucking bullshit. Take this to the extreme and you get to "slavery is a choice". Breaking free from the environment gets you killed. Breaking free from the environment gets you fired, excommunicated, thrown down to the bottom.

The Wire isn't a show where the stars align and the world lets a super hero come in and save the day or break the system. Sorry, buddy, it's a show about real life and real life is a whole system of bullshit that exists to keep everyone down except those truly at the top.

This is probably coming off more antagonistic then intended but the idea that the people (namely the kids) in the show just needed to stop accepting the world they live in and escape, and by extension, people in real life who live in the same positions, is exceedingly naive and in some ways a dangerous mindset to have.

astro · Jul 9, 2018

The best thing about The Wire threads is the people desperately trying to let people know a better show exists.

We all know this isn't true. Please stop it.

E.T. · Jul 9, 2018

astro said:
The best thing about The Wire threads is the people desperately trying to let people know a better show exists.

We all know this isn't true. Please stop it.

Game of Frones doe, lol.
Wire is untouchable.

Bersi · Jul 9, 2018

yes it is, i just wanted to use this gif.

Milennia · Jul 9, 2018

It's mine by a massive long shot, this show was like a long ass movie that didn't get boring for me

SNES Jr · Jul 9, 2018

It's good but it's no Entourage.

Rosenkrantz · Jul 9, 2018

Personally, I don't think I ever considered The Wire to be 'the best ever' because to me, the show should be engaging and entertaining (I don't mean explosions and gore) in order to be one of the greats.

The Wire however will remain a relevant show for a very long time thanks to it topics and social commentary.

Rangerx · Jul 9, 2018

Nothing even comes close in eyes. Its an absolute masterpiece of the highest order.

honest_ry · Jul 9, 2018

The Simpsons is the greatest.

SolidChamp · Jul 9, 2018

The Sopranos wins.

E.T. · Jul 9, 2018

Forgot to mention Twin Peaks. Amazing too.

CassCade · Jul 9, 2018

Yes, yes it is, the only thing that came to surpassing it was the second season of Hannibal.

Rendering... · Jul 9, 2018

It's great but not nearly consistent enough to top a best of all time list.

jay said:
Yeah, probably.

Breaking Bad was great but it's ultimately meaningless.

Only if you consider art that explores the human condition, with exceptional style and craft, meaningless. Breaking Bad is about as meaningless as a Greek tragedy.

CassCade said:
Yes, yes it is, the only thing that came to surpassing it was the second season of Hannibal.

I can get on board with that last bit. Now that was groundbreaking TV.

Dog · Jul 9, 2018

I haven't seen it, at the moment that title goes to Breaking Bad for me. But I will sit down and watch the wire soon for sure. Keep forgetting.

Hear nothing but good things.

Jesse_and_the_rippers said:
S1 of True Detective is still number one for me.

Good shout, this was so good too.

Wackamole · Jul 9, 2018

Nope. For me it's still The Sopranos.

Tabs2002 · Jul 9, 2018

Nothing has come even close imo.

Lupercal · Jul 9, 2018

People keep sleeping on The Shield.
But The Wire is an easy top 3 drama/crime show.

Artdayne · Jul 9, 2018

Sopranos is the greatest television show, the Wire is a close second though.

paradox85 · Jul 9, 2018

Yes. Yes it is.

It's 2018, is The Wire still the best TV show ever made?

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