Why in-game achievements aren't widespread on the Switch?

Kurtofan · Jul 8, 2018

achievements are such garbage. They're pointless and force you to play a certain way.

Before starting a game you have to worry about which achievement is missable, which is especially bad for long rpgs.
They often interfere with basic gameplay (" you have to do 100 backstabs" 'you have to do 100 special combos" etc etc), you don't do the moves because it suits the game, you do them because they fill up your cheevos meter even if its detrimental to the experience.

You might say "well why do you do them?" well why not? You're playing the game, it's part of the game's content, you check the cheevos list and you think "well this seems easy, might as well get it", but that doesn't not make it pointless and detrimental to the overall experience in my opinion.

weltalldx · Jul 8, 2018

Kolx said:
You can just ignore them then, and let people who want them have it. They're something extra so I don't see how they can affect your enjoyment if you don't want them.

You don't see how much of an inconvenience and distraction it is to individuals who don't want to see a message pop up every time they get to a new area or do something new in a game like BOTW? I think that sort of system is a hindrance to the gameplay experience and would certainly be a burden to those who don't like achievements. Such a divisive design should not be a default option and to force a system wide implementation is not a good compromise. The better compromise is letting each game implement it on a case by case basis, which is what Nintendo did.

hibikase · Jul 8, 2018

Lucreto said:
The lack of achievement support is why Nintendo games trend to fall further back into my backlog.

Octopath Traveller is out soon and it's a game I would normally play but no achievements so I won't buy it and play Watch Dogs 2 instead.

Fucking hell...

Kolx · Jul 8, 2018

weltalldx said:
You don't see how much of an inconvenience and distraction it is to individuals who don't want to see a message pop up every time they get to a new area or do something new in a game like BOTW? I think that sort of system is a hindrance to the gameplay experience and would certainly be a burden to those who don't like achievements. Such a divisive design should not be a default option and to force a system wide implementation is not a good compromise. The better compromise is letting each game implement it on a case by case basis, which is what Nintendo did.

You can easily turn off the notifications tho? It's very easy to ignore trophies if you want.

Shrennin · Jul 8, 2018

I think a system that would work best with Nintendo's gameplay philosophy is achievements that just show when certain parts of a game are completed. Complete chapter 1, chapter 2, chapter 3, complete the game, complete the game on this difficulty, etc. For multiplayer games, just stuff like complete first match, win first match, become MVP, etc.

Nothing that would influence how people should play a certain way, but just something that records when something is done playing it naturally.

chubigans · Jul 8, 2018

Achievements/Trophies are fantastic. I cannot praise them enough. Those who compare them to "lazy game design" are completely misinformed. Here's a few reasons why I enjoy them from both a player and dev perspective:

-They get players to do certain objectives they would normally skip. For instance, the easy tutorial trophy- many players skip tutorials altogether and can miss key details that they would have otherwise known via the tutorial. This is a nice way to nudge them into it without having to resort to locking game modes or content away at startup, something that negatively impacts the experience for those who are not playing for the first time.

-They can show players fundamentals that the game would otherwise have a hard time relaying to the player. I was playing Gran Turismo Sport last night and I saw one of the trophies was to spend Mileage points on upgrading cars, something I didn't know existed until I saw the trophy despite dozens of hours in the game. Similarly I've seen trophies that describe combos or player moves where I've thought, whoa, I can do that? This is much more rewarding than having a little tutorial bubble appear.

-It gives the game a little bit more weight in terms of progression. Getting a bronze for something that takes an hour, vs a gold trophy that you get at the end of the game, makes it all feel more final and adds to the accomplishment of beating the game.

-Trophy/Steam Achievement rarity can be a great easy way to get some stats from your player base as a dev. I've seen low rarity on some achievements that I thought were easy to get, and this told me that the game wasn't surfacing the mode or playstyle appropriately or in a way that players were paying attention to.

-They add fun challenges that would otherwise not fit within the structure of the game. Using my game as an example, I wanted to do a special achievement that unlocks if a player plays a level in an exact style. This would be awkward to put into the game since it wasn't built for extremely specific scenarios like this, but as an achievement it was very easy and fun to do.

-They show up on friend's profiles and are another simple way to surface your game to players who don't know anything about it.

There is certainly such a thing as bad trophy/achievement design. I think a lot of the older Uncharted games, where you had to kill people with a specific gun so many times, leads to endless grinding that is not fun at all. Similarly, trophies based on difficulty can be tricky and leads the player into sticking with a difficulty level that may be unfun for their skill level and might discourage them from continuing to play (I was thankful to see God of War skip the difficulty mode trophies). I'd say any trophy that requires grinding can be a slog, and I'm guilty of that as well.

Anyways, just my two cents. I hope Nintendo adds them because there is absolutely ZERO reason, NONE whatsoever, that they shouldn't be in there. They are great for everyone, and you can turn them off if you disagree.

krg · Jul 8, 2018

Kurtofan said:
achievements are such garbage. They're pointless and force you to play a certain way.

Not really. I 100% of the time play the games as I always do, without considering doing certain quests or actions to get an achievement. I do take a look at them once the game is finished though and sometimes, those missing achievements extend a game's life.

weltalldx · Jul 8, 2018

chubigans said:
Achievements/Trophies are fantastic. I cannot praise them enough. Those who compare them to "lazy game design" are completely misinformed. Here's a few reasons why I enjoy them from both a player and dev perspective:

-They get players to do certain objectives they would normally skip. For instance, the easy tutorial trophy- many players skip tutorials altogether and can miss key details that they would have otherwise known via the tutorial. This is a nice way to nudge them into it without having to resort to locking game modes or content away at startup, something that negatively impacts the experience for those who are not playing for the first time.

-They can show players fundamentals that the game would otherwise have a hard time relaying to the player. I was playing Gran Turismo Sport last night and I saw one of the trophies was to spend Mileage points on upgrading cars, something I didn't know existed until I saw the trophy despite dozens of hours in the game. Similarly I've seen trophies that describe combos or player moves where I've thought, whoa, I can do that? This is much more rewarding than having a little tutorial bubble appear.

-It gives the game a little bit more weight in terms of progression. Getting a bronze for something that takes an hour, vs a gold trophy that you get at the end of the game, makes it all feel more final and adds to the accomplishment of beating the game.

-Trophy/Steam Achievement rarity can be a great easy way to get some stats from your player base as a dev. I've seen low rarity on some achievements that I thought were easy to get, and this told me that the game wasn't surfacing the mode or playstyle appropriately or in a way that players were paying attention to.

-They add fun challenges that would otherwise not fit within the structure of the game. Using my game as an example, I wanted to do a special achievement that unlocks if a player plays a level in an exact style. This would be awkward to put into the game since it wasn't built for extremely specific scenarios like this, but as an achievement it was very easy and fun to do.

-They show up on friend's profiles and are another simple way to surface your game to players who don't know anything about it.

There is certainly such a thing as bad trophy/achievement design. I think a lot of the older Uncharted games, where you had to kill people with a specific gun so many times, leads to endless grinding that is not fun at all. Similarly, trophies based on difficulty can be tricky and leads the player into sticking with a difficulty level that may be unfun for their skill level and might discourage them from continuing to play (I was thankful to see God of War skip the difficulty mode trophies). I'd say any trophy that requires grinding can be a slog, and I'm guilty of that as well.

Anyways, just my two cents. I hope Nintendo adds them because there is absolutely ZERO reason, NONE whatsoever, that they shouldn't be in there. They are great for everyone, and you can turn them off if you disagree.

I respect your well thought out reasoning supporting trophies/achievements. But to me, they seem out-of-place and counter-intuitive to what gaming is about, having fun.

I was playing Tekken Tag Tournament HD with a friend recently and he was not used to an era where trophies did not exist. I noticed something interesting, he wanted to chase all the trophies in the game, doing mundane and I believe pointless task that the original game on the PS2 never intended, such as try to win 50 survival matches, win a match in a certain way, or adding more "work" to the game than there needs to be. Now everyone can spend their time doing what they like, but when it's not about having fun, discovering new abilities/strategies/mechanics on your own but just chasing a set of goals that probably was not even intended by the original designers, I think that is where achievements become a liability and problem.

As a person who grew up playing games before there was an emphasis on instant gratification such as : games playing themselves, gps direction, achievements, and general handholding, I just see more problems with achievements than benefits.

I also play WOW and have seen how achievements can turn a community toward elitism and doing mindless activities just to increase their "online" cred. You cannot join a competitive raid or PVP team without providing an achievement. I have seen people just flying around the world map collecting every lore/location to unlock an achievement, which I think they use to validate their character? It just seems like a very easy way to add "work" with very little actual game mechanic/design involved.

Beatle · Jul 8, 2018

Achievements are for Work and School, never cared for them in games that I relax with, so I understand Nintendo

Zen Hero · Jul 8, 2018

Since it's not a system-level feature, it's completely up to the developers of the individual games to decide if they want to add them. Developers must take it on a case-by-case basis and decide if it is something they think would be fun for their game and if it something that is worth the development cost. They could spend time developing achievements, or they could spend time developing another feature.

I think it's good that Nintendo leaves it up to the developers to decide if they want to add achievements. Achievements can be a cool feature, but I don't think they need to be mandated to be in every game.

Re: Super Mario Odyssey, I feel like many moons in the game are essentially achievements of sorts. Plus you have Toadette at the end of the game who gives you an achievement-like list of things to do.

Deleted member 11934 · Jul 8, 2018

They were a fun novelty.

In 2009.

Now I only care to unlock all endings and 100% the games I love and never want to end. Having all charas maxed out and getting all Pokemonz/Personas/Demons or filling the entire map and getting everything in Metroidvanias (ffs I "finished" SotN more than 2 times). That's my jam.

Sure they can put them if they want. But it feels like a feature for those who really care about them. They just make me cringe when for example I finish a game and I still have 15-20% because I didn't do tedious bullshit.

Thordawgg · Jul 8, 2018

I don't mind that individual games have the opportunity to implement their own achievements if they want.

Kurtofan said:
achievements are such garbage. They're pointless and force you to play a certain way.

Wat.

Bakercat · Jul 8, 2018

I know the Wii U version of Shovel Knight had the achievements in game.

massoluk · Jul 8, 2018

Lucreto said:
The lack of achievement support is why Nintendo games trend to fall further back into my backlog.

Octopath Traveller is out soon and it's a game I would normally play but no achievements so I won't buy it and play Watch Dogs 2 instead.

Is this real life?

Emperor Ham · Jul 8, 2018

Cause it's utterly pointless and a waste of time.

higgsboson1997 · Jul 8, 2018

I didn't enjoy the achievement unlocked notifications whenever you do something of note on the 360. I tried fulfilling all the achievements in Assassin's Creed II, but found the experience to be one of tedium, and don't like how the achievement system incentivizes that.

Glad they don't have that on the Switch personally.

Kubricks · Jul 8, 2018

I never understand the purpose of achievement in video game space so I am kind of glad that it isn't "spread" on Switch?
A good game should introduce me all the possibility within the game without reducing to a pop up message.

Odeko · Jul 9, 2018

Nintendo left it up to the devs and the devs have spoken.

I'm completely unsurprised that when given total freedom devs like to make much more interesting diegetic rewards for accomplishments rather than emulating an old system-level generic pop-up.

Vern · Jul 9, 2018

Achievements don't really add fun to any game. None that I've played anyway. They add some new boxes to fill up but that's not worth anything.

If you want to kill 100 goombas or race 750 times on baby park you can just count it yourself.

KtSlime · Jul 9, 2018

I vote Nintendo mandate a score system in all games. Achievements are lame, getting high score is what gaming should be all about.

Liquid Snake · Jul 9, 2018

In-game trophies are absolutely worthless.

System-Wide is the way to go.

Great thing about system wide is, it's a nice side benefit to enjoying a game — you enjoy the game, and getting achievements makes it all just a little bit more enjoyable. Of course there's people who take this to the extreme and let it control how they play the games — but that's on them personally, not the achievements themselves.

Jaded Alyx · Jul 9, 2018

Brock Reiher said:
It took Nintendo 10 years to get voice chat

Wii and DS had voice chat

MonstaZero · Jul 9, 2018

Lucreto said:
The lack of achievement support is why Nintendo games trend to fall further back into my backlog.

Octopath Traveller is out soon and it's a game I would normally play but no achievements so I won't buy it and play Watch Dogs 2 instead.

This is what achievements do

Ganransu · Jul 9, 2018

Because it should be an optional feature and not a compulsory feature. Not every game will benefit from the inclusion of achievement, be it system-wide or in-game.

Imagine trying to make a game with carefully designed levels guiding the players from point A to B, only to then design the game to encourage players to drift outside of that path to look for hidden items because achievement. They would actually have to design against themselves.

Not only that, but it cheapens the sense of discovery for the player. While we all secretly know that game designers have designed most of the game's secrets, there is still a feeling of glee when you feel like you've found your own secret. This loss could discourage players from exploring the game, but rather just following a checklist. If that is your intention though, well, go for it.

This is exactly why I can't get into Ubisoft's games, they're literally checklist games that pull me out of the story to look for towers. It would have been fine if the story wasn't integral to the game experience, but it is.

"If it's so bad, why don't you ignore it?" You may be asking. I think and I doubt I am alone on this, it's because as a gamer, many of us are completionist, the nagging feeling of a list literally telling us that we haven't played the game fully is annoying to say the least.

That said, I'm not fully against the idea of achievements, I think it's a good way to show your friends what you've a- uh, achieved. Like doing wheelie for 500m, or beating a certain impossibly hard boss/challenge. However, I wonder in the age of streams and video recording, how useful is achievement as a tool for showing off your skillz? Wouldn't it be more interesting to show them a clip of you masterfully dodging attacks from that boss and then winning without a scratch?

In short, if you enjoy it, good for you! However, it shouldn't be a must-have for every game.

Black_Red · Jul 9, 2018

ZeoVGM said:
It's just another random and weird thing that Nintendo is behind on.

It's so strange to me that they think up and release forward-thinking and innovative products, such as the Switch itself, but still fall behind on basic features such as online functionality and achievements.

I dont think achievements its something you should expect in every platform, want until last gen just a MS thing that then Sony/Steam copied?

Its a cool feature for a reduced amount of people and thats it, it isnt comparable to what I'd call "basic features"

Ubiblu · Jul 9, 2018

I think achievements are generally pretty great for showcasing raw skill, or dedication to specific tasking. Having said that, whether a game has achievements or not, and whether they are actually obtainable (either SP or MP) has a very clear impact on my purchasing behaviour.

While I often lament the lack of achievements on Switch, it's also incredibly liberating to play games simply because I WANT to have fun, rather than accomplish some specific (and often arbitrary) task set.

For what it's worth, I still take screenshots of what I would consider major achievements on Switch (999 Moons; 900 Korok Seeds; #1 Victory Royale, etc.).

ZeoVGM · Jul 9, 2018

Black_Red said:
I dont think achievements its something you should expect in every platform, want until last gen just a MS thing that then Sony/Steam copied?/QUOTE]

Xbox 360, PS3, Xbox One, PS4, Vita, Steam, even Android phones have a built in achievement system. But not the Switch.

It's silly that they haven't added the feature yet.

Then again, they kill off their own unique features like Miiverse and StreetPass so expecting them to use a feature that has been common for 13 years now in other platforms might be asking too much.

fourfourfun · Jul 9, 2018

Don't care for these things. Valuable resources better spent elsewhere.

Ereineon · Jul 9, 2018

i also dont care, and most nintendo players i know also dont even know they exist. Its a nice little thing to have in some contexts but usually they just break the inmerssion in most games i saw them in.

Agent Icebeezy · Jul 9, 2018

Robin64 said:
The new version of Minecraft has achievements which add to my Xbox Gamescore. It's all so strange.

Getting wood is an achievement? Limitless possibilities for a joke there.

Kid Night · Jul 9, 2018

In my experience, the game developers I've worked for have all loathed achievements/trophies. They only include them because it's a platform requirement for Sony and MS. It was a really common failure point in certification for a lot of games on those platforms.

If they weren't required, they would disappear from most console games in a heartbeat.

Deleted member 32442 · Jul 9, 2018

i love Nintendo for not having a achievment system

Lucreto · Jul 9, 2018

I love looking at the trophies statistics. 96% get a trophy minutes into the game. Did 4% give up playing minutes after starting the game?

Then you have over 50% completing the main story in God of War. That alone is a rare sight. Usually most don't finish the game.

MonstaZero said:
This is what achievements do

Promote competition? Ubisoft provide an incentive to play their game over Nintendo games. It also helps I get 20% discount on their Collector Editions just for collecting trophies.

I played Breath of the Wild and Mario Odyssey. I completed Mario but no incentive to even try to get the moons. I didn't finish Breath of the Wild. I lost incentive after the second boss.

massoluk · Jul 9, 2018

Lucreto said:
Promote competition? Ubisoft provide an incentive to play their game over Nintendo games. It also helps I get 20% discount on their Collector Editions just for collecting trophies.

I played Breath of the Wild and Mario Odyssey. I completed Mario but no incentive to even try to get the moons. I didn't finish Breath of the Wild. I lost incentive after the second boss.

This is what achievements do

JohnnyEnglish · Jul 9, 2018

Unless the achievements have in-game rewards ( like Pillars of Eternity Deadfire's Berath's Blessing System), I couldn't care less about them. The fact that I don't even notice my Switch's lack of achievements is proof enough.

Robin64 · Jul 9, 2018

Lucreto said:
I played Breath of the Wild and Mario Odyssey. I completed Mario but no incentive to even try to get the moons. I didn't finish Breath of the Wild. I lost incentive after the second boss.

The "incentive" is more of that fun game you have been playing.

VodkaFX · Jul 9, 2018

Kurtofan said:
achievements are such garbage. They're pointless and force you to play a certain way.

Before starting a game you have to worry about which achievement is missable, which is especially bad for long rpgs.
They often interfere with basic gameplay (" you have to do 100 backstabs" 'you have to do 100 special combos" etc etc), you don't do the moves because it suits the game, you do them because they fill up your cheevos meter even if its detrimental to the experience.

You might say "well why do you do them?" well why not? You're playing the game, it's part of the game's content, you check the cheevos list and you think "well this seems easy, might as well get it", but that doesn't not make it pointless and detrimental to the overall experience in my opinion.

Indeed, and some games even require you to do multiple playthroughs to achieve the platinum / 100%, as though trying to artificially extend the game's replayability / game time.

I might be in the minority but I am glad the Switch doesn't have achivements, I think the activity log (the one that shows how many hours have you clocked in a particular game so far) that it has currently is good enough.

SlickVic · Jul 9, 2018

I don't really expect them to come to the Switch at this point, but I do appreciate their existence on the other platforms. Achievements kind of work as an official log for me, chronicling when exactly I was playing a certain game. Sometimes I like to look at my trophy list, select a game on there, and think about what was going in my life at that time I was playing it. It's a small thing, but I appreciate the nostalgia trip. As much as life changes, it's a bit comforting knowing I've been enjoying playing games all these years (and to have a record of what I was playing when).

I also like looking up trophies for finding out potential optional content for a game. It helps me figure out what additional stuff in the game seems appealing and worth trying out.

KtSlime · Jul 9, 2018

Robin64 said:
The "incentive" is more of that fun game you have been playing.

It's almost like people don't want to play the game but instead get the little message saying that they successfully did something or other.

tatwo · Jul 9, 2018

2011 this was their stance about achievements.

"When they create their games, [Nintendo's designers] don't tell you how to play their game in order to achieve some kind of mythical reward."

"Basically, the way the games are designed is they're designed for you to explore the game yourself and have this sense of discovery," he said. "To that end, I think that when you look specifically at games from EAD [the group long led by Mario and Donkey Kong creator Shigeru Miyamoto] and a lot of other games that Nintendo has developed a well, there are things you can do in the game that will result in some sort of reward or unexpected surprise. In my mind, that really encourages the sense of exploration rather than the sense of 'If I do that, I'm going to get some sort of artificial point or score that's going to make me feel better that I got this.' And that, to me, is I think more compelling."

source

Lucreto · Jul 9, 2018

Robin64 said:
The "incentive" is more of that fun game you have been playing.

KtSlime said:
It's almost like people don't want to play the game but instead get the little message saying that they successfully did something or other.

Or play the game in an efficient manner.

I can get this, this and this for this trophy on my way to point B and unlock a main story trophy.

I was the kid who would do anything for a gold star in school. I got nothing out of it but I bunch of gold stars. Trophies are an extention of that.

I also play for the story, gameplay takes a backseat and the trophies adds the the gameplay. I got the Platinum in God of War and Assassins Creed Origins not because of the gameplay but to get all the lore from Mimir in GoW and the history from the time period in Origins.

It's down to how people play the game and Nintendo are ignoring people like me. Since I prefer story I think the ability to skip Cut scenes is completely unnecessary that should not be an option but it's a necessary evil I put up with. It should be the same for trophies.

Arthands · Jul 9, 2018

I think the fact that so many third party games on the Switch doesn't have it too, shows that if given a choice they (third party) will rather not implement it.

Mistouze · Jul 9, 2018

Uh, in Odyssey there's a character offering an achievement stand-in (rewarding you with moons even) in the world you unlock for finishing the main campaign.

Datajoy · Jul 9, 2018

Lucreto said:
The lack of achievement support is why Nintendo games trend to fall further back into my backlog.

Octopath Traveller is out soon and it's a game I would normally play but no achievements so I won't buy it and play Watch Dogs 2 instead.

Why would you decide which game to play based on whether or not is has achievements? Does the game mean more to you if playing it adds to a e-peen bar on your profile?

I'm seriously baffled by peoples obsession with this stuff. Unless this is a joke, in which case well done.

RandomTiger · Jul 9, 2018

Not everyone thinks achievements are important, since Nintendo doesn't have a system integrated into user profiles only games that dev's think benefit from them have them implemented.

I was really into achievements on the 360, but as time went on and they evolved from fun recognition of your progress/skill they I feel became more about collecting user player data, a lazy way to push you towards play styles you hadn't naturally chosen ingame and attempting to prolong player retention via progress bars. The latter I feel broke people into two camps, those who love achievements and numerical progress systems and cant understand why you wouldn't want them and people who look to the game mechanics and content to deliver reward.

Lucreto · Jul 9, 2018

Datajoy said:
Why would you decide which game to play based on whether or not is has achievements? Does the game mean more to you if playing it adds to a e-peen bar on your profile?

I'm seriously baffled by peoples obsession with this stuff. Unless this is a joke, in which case well done.

I like collecting trophies. I don't compare them to others peopl. I just enjoy collecting them. I said above I play for story the gameplay can get in the way so I require addition points to work towards.

I just watched people play A Way Out as I was interested in the story but not bothered with the gameplay.

What baffles me on people who skip cut scenes or plays Japanese games not knowing a word of Japanese. You are missing story.

Calamari · Jul 9, 2018

I love achievements and the lack system wide achievements means I won't ever buy 3rd party games on switch when I can buy them on xbox or playstation. Probably in the minority in 2018 but it's certainly a deal breaker for me and means I spend much less time and money on switch. In-game achievements don't do it for me.

azeke · Jul 9, 2018

krg said:
For instance, I'd definitely spend more time collecting moons if only Super Mario Odyssey had achievements.... your thoughts?

You might want to play the game further...

LiftGammaGain · Jul 9, 2018

I would rather have a proper gameplay tracker like the 3DS.

shaneo632 · Jul 9, 2018

I have friends who literally won't buy a game on Switch because it doesn't have achievements. They are throwing money down the drain given how OCD people get about cheevs.

Why in-game achievements aren't widespread on the Switch?

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