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Oct 27, 2017
704
One of the things I don't understand about this story is the idea that Price's Twitter account was somehow a private space separate from the company, and that was why she blew up at Deroir. It was a public account and she openly displayed that she worked for Arenanet there. If you only want to engage in a discussion with a limited pool of friends or contemporaries, either set it to private, choose a different medium, or simply do not engage.

The fact that she was the one who escalated the issue, especially given who she blew her top at essentially sealed her fate. Deroir (to my knowledge) wasn't even the one who highlighted the exchange on the Guild Wars 2 subreddit, but given that he is a popular streamer and a company partner it was a forgone conclusion that someone would notice it and post it there. Once it ended up on r/all, and given that Price continued to double down and was rude to other community members who inquired about the exchange, it was open season.

The saying is that, "the customer is king" is true to a certain extent, but it's especially true that companies value their relationships with specific customers very highly. If a relatively recent employee (Price had worked at Arenanet for one year prior to the incident) attacks a top customer, it's highly likely that the company will give them the boot regardless of the industry. The one that seems more like a overreaction was the firing of Peter Fries, a 13 year veteran of the company, when his only crime appeared to be hitching his horse to the wrong wagon.
 

sibarraz

Prophet of Regret - One Winged Slayer
Avenger
Oct 27, 2017
18,108
Isn't mansplaining when a man tries to correct a women in a subject that is 100% of the time a women related issue? Because in this case, discussing with her about storytelling shouldn't be mansplaining, unless he implied that since she was a woman she didn't have the tools to write a compelling story or something
 

breakfuss

Prophet of Truth
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
1,538
It's been explained many times in this thread already. Even if he wasn't intending that to be the case, it was understandably taken as such due to the context of the sexism that does exist in the industry. He went on to try an explain something to her that she clearly would have known about. Intended or not in this case (and, it clearly was unintended based on his subsequent withdrawal), that is something that typically occurs as part of the casual sexism in the industry and she, having noted that she's experienced this in the past, took it as such.

Nah, even as a minority I refuse to conduct myself that way. Especially in a professional capacity. It's lazy. It's unreasonable. And ultimately it gets us nowhere. Lol I can't blame every white person I encounter for societal ills or the handful of racists I've had to deal with in and out of work. Y'all are reaching.
 

Khezu

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,947
I don't think she got fired completely because of what she did, but rather, who she did it too.
A warning would have probably happened if she blew up at an actual rando asshat, not a community content creator influencer w/e the fuck youtube people are called now a days.
They have lots of fans and power, insulting him is going to sour his entire fanbase that plays the game.

Shit's weird.
 

7threst

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,297
Netherlands
Maybe she had a history of acting this way and this way the straw that broke the camel's back
Yes, that is exactly what she said in an email to Kotaku:
It was, Price told Kotaku in an email, a straw-that-broke-the-camel's-back moment. "By the time that guy came along, I was so tired of having random people explain my job to me in company spaces where I had to just smile and nod that it was like, 'No. Not here. Not in my space,'" she said.

And this is what I don't get. It's not "her space", it's social media where everybody gets his or her own stage. If you don't want top have a conversation, start a company blog or something. But she chose Twitter and by that, she chose poorly. Because people react on there, it's what the mnedium is for.
 

Killingmoon

Member
Oct 28, 2017
262
Discipline her, take her to a social media etiquette seminar if it's that big a deal.

Firing her right off the bat was the wrong call for ArenaNet to make.

How did you know that wasn't the last straw of a recurring issue? From what I heard from others, she has an attitude problem. She had been working at ANet for 12 years. You think an employer would fire someone working that long if that was her first transgression?
 

MrConbon210

Member
Oct 31, 2017
7,649
Bingo. An apology would've been more than enough. Instead, she loses her job, another guy loses HIS job just for standing with her, and now everyone's mad at everybody except GamerGate who thinks they're hot shit for getting people fired.

This was a lose-lose.

I don't think they were going to get her to apologize. Its just like the Roseanne situation. Both of them have said shitty stuff once the past however it gets to a point where one tweet pushed them over the line.
 

litebrite

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
21,832
It's been explained many times in this thread already. Even if he wasn't intending that to be the case, it was understandably taken as such due to the context of the sexism that does exist in the industry. He went on to try an explain something to her that she clearly would have known about. Intended or not in this case (and, it clearly was unintended based on his subsequent withdrawal), that is something that typically occurs as part of the casual sexism in the industry and she, having noted that she's experienced this in the past, took it as such.
That doesn't mean because she's more sensitive to the issue due to experience means she fairly assesed this one as such. You have to pick and choose your battles, and she chose wrong this time.
 

daybreak

Member
Feb 28, 2018
2,415
The fact that some people in here are saying he is sexist for his response is literal slander.
 

Kusagari

Member
Oct 25, 2017
18,433
Her response was entirely inappropriate and I could see being deemed a fire worthy offense.
 

Faabulous

Member
Oct 27, 2017
255
God, what kind of nightmare dystopia are we living in that a company can't stand by their own employees and a twitter spat (on a personal account) now results in public firings. Like she said herself, she wasn't customer support, she didn't have the obligation to engage the fucking twitter harassment horde in a respectable manner.

This is fucked up. Fuck turning the other cheek
 

1080peace

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,148
Isn't mansplaining when a man tries to correct a women in a subject that is 100% of the time a women related issue? Because in this case, discussing with her about storytelling shouldn't be mansplaining, unless he implied that since she was a woman she didn't have the tools to write a compelling story or something
My friend, please look up what mansplaining is before you incorrectly try to explain why this isn't mansplaining. I give you something to get started: it's not limited to woman related issues.
 

Toriko

Banned
Dec 29, 2017
7,711
She deserved a scolding maybe. Yeah, she acted unprofessional, but come on...

She acted in a public space as a representative for ArenaNet so yeah, she should've definitely known better. Some social media training goes a long way and walking away from heating comments is sometimes the best. Better yet, expect reactions when posting on social media, that what they're there for/ Still, I don't feel someone deserves a firing over this.

Depends. What would you do as the CEO if you asked her to apologize to the content partner but she refused? Would you say - 'oh well at least I tried...' or would you see her as someone not fitting the company's culture and values and think its best to part ways?
 

Kinsei

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
20,544
Isn't mansplaining when a man tries to correct a women in a subject that is 100% of the time a women related issue? Because in this case, discussing with her about storytelling shouldn't be mansplaining, unless he implied that since she was a woman she didn't have the tools to write a compelling story or something
No, it's when a man tries to correct a woman when it comes to something she knows about because he assumes (whether consciously or not) she doesn't know what she's talking about due to being a woman. It's quite clear that that isn't what happened in this case.
 

Decarb

Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,643
It does, because the nuance of the statement makes it clearly different than what people are trying to pass as her tapdancing on his grave.

Well now that she no longer works for a company and doesn't have to worry about representing anything, she doesn't have to say nasty things in the kindest way. She can actually say "I'm glad that sexist pig is dead"
 

Cabbagehead

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
4,019
Another tragedy is you failing to comprehend that you can be sexist to people that you admire.
Now your misconstructing my post. As there's no failure to comprehand, when there's next to zero sexism in question here. Only a tangential label applied to a extremely well meaning person. That didn't need to be called an asshat.
 

PlanetSmasher

The Abominable Showman
Member
Oct 25, 2017
115,742
How did you know that wasn't the last straw of a recurring issue? From what I heard from others, she has an attitude problem. She had been working at ANet for 12 years. You think an employer would fire someone working that long if that was her first transgression?

If it's the case that she's been a troublemaker for ANet for a long time, that's a different scenario entirely. But we don't know that, all we know is what happened here and now.

I'm probably coming at this from a biased perspective as someone who was harassed by GG directly, so forgive me for that. I just really see a dangerous precedent being set if those scumlords realize that all they need to do is needle people on Twitter until they've had enough and respond.
 

Riderz1337

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
3,913
And that in no way is a reason to be fucking fired. People defending this bullshit are terrible.

Not very professional, no. But I have seen the likes of David Jaffe, Kamiya and Cliffy B calling people much worse, but somehow the cesspools on Reddit aren't knocking on their doors. I wonder why hm.
David Jaffe and Cliffy B don't even work at video game studios.

And if you see their tweets they get a bunch of hate.

But ok lol
 
Oct 25, 2017
6,379
I just want to know how what he wrote was mansplaning. Can someone write a nonmansplaining version of it?
People are saying he was being condensing/rude in the post but I just don't see it.

I think a lot of people in the thread are misunderstanding what "mansplaining" is. Sometimes it's not the obvious "Let me explain your job to you" or "Repeat what yous said but with my spin on it." sometimes it's throwing out your opinion without really needing to, a privilege kind of exclusive to men a lot of ways. I saw a good tweet explaining it forever ago that I barely remember.

Some tweet forever ago said:
Women: I need to word this carefully as to not provoke anyone. I don't want to say something that'll lead me to being the target of harassment or something someone can use out of context against me in the future. I gotta be careful with this.

Men: Here's my opinion.

If you want something more concrete to point at, its the "Let me *sightly* disagree with you" but really it's just the general behavior of men coming in with their unprompted opinion on things constantly. Especially if its about something a women says.
 

ParanoidRED

Banned
Nov 2, 2017
2,931
God, what kind of nightmare dystopia are we living in that a company can't stand by their own employees and a twitter spat (on a personal account) now results in public firings. Like she said herself, she wasn't customer support, she didn't have the obligation to engage the fucking twitter harassment horde in a respectable manner.
She didn't adress the horde, the was no damn horde when she decided to act out against the guy
 

Wanderer5

Prophet of Truth
The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
10,986
Somewhere.
So this was a straw-that-broke-the-camel's-back moment? Yeah, the firing makes much more sense now if there has been a history.
 

Riderz1337

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
3,913
If it's the case that she's been a troublemaker for ANet for a long time, that's a different scenario entirely. But we don't know that, all we know is what happened here and now.

I'm probably coming at this from a biased perspective as someone who was harassed by GG directly, so forgive me for that. I just really see a dangerous precedent being set if those scumlords realize that all they need to do is needle people on Twitter until they've had enough and respond.
Uhhh we do know that. She made terrible comments when Total Biscuit passed and she has a history of reacting aggressively towards others.
 

MrConbon210

Member
Oct 31, 2017
7,649
God, what kind of nightmare dystopia are we living in that a company can't stand by their own employees and a twitter spat (on a personal account) now results in public firings. Like she said herself, she wasn't customer support, she didn't have the obligation to engage the fucking twitter harassment horde in a respectable manner.

This is fucked up. Fuck turning the other cheek

What harassment horde? The tweet that complimented her opinion and then shared his own?
 

KLoWn

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,890
Discipline her, take her to a social media etiquette seminar if it's that big a deal.

Firing her right off the bat was the wrong call for ArenaNet to make.
If you want to make an argument that her being fired was too harsh a punishment that's fine, but don't act like the reason she got kicked out was anyone's fault but her own.
 

1080peace

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,148
Now your misconstructing my post. As there's no failure to comprehand, when there's next to zero sexism in question here. Only a tangential label applied to a extremely well meaning person.
And now we're back to where we started:

Price got angry at casual sexism, the kind that the majority of people (especially men) are incapable of seeing at all.
 

Dynheart

Self-requested ban
Member
Oct 31, 2017
658
Yeah, I think that's what people are missing here - the tone may be polite but the content of trying to explain how to do their own job? Not polite, whether you do it to a man or a woman. The Youtuber may be a generally polite young man, I don't think anybody here is calling him a monster, but it does suck to constantly have someone act like they know more about your job then you, and this happens to women alot. Could her response been better? Yes. It was a bit rude. But the most that should have happened was a warning, it's a mountain made out of a mole hill here.

There is nothing to miss here. Every gamer dons the armchair game developer cloak several times in their life time, claiming they can improve the game simply by pressing a button here, or changing some code there. This guy did nothing new here, he was an armchair developer for that moment, not some mansplaining individual. Further, developers have gotten really good ideas from these armchair developers, which have made it into games (developers can run out of ideas). Lastly, this guy, this armchair dev, was way more polite that your typical; which like to throw in insults.

I would like to add in that this further solidifies my hate for text based communication. No matter how shorthand (poorly communicated), or articulated (usually comes off as condescending to some), there will people who will inject there own context into the message and make up the worst possible conclusion from it. It's missing voice and body language, which is 2/3's of communication! I think this is what happened here. If this dialog were to happen face to face, I doubt it would have come off as "mansplaining."
 

Trace

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,691
Canada
God, what kind of nightmare dystopia are we living in that a company can't stand by their own employees and a twitter spat (on a personal account) now results in public firings. Like she said herself, she wasn't customer support, she didn't have the obligation to engage the fucking twitter harassment horde in a respectable manner.

This is fucked up. Fuck turning the other cheek

Hope you never work in a public-facing role at any company because you'd be fired in a day.

I've worked retail for years and I put up with way worse than the original tweets for years, and I'm not allowed to call customers "rando asshats" either.
 

Heckler456

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
5,256
Belgium
It's been explained many times in this thread already. Even if he wasn't intending that to be the case, it was understandably taken as such due to the context of the sexism that does exist in the industry. He went on to try an explain something to her that she clearly would have known about. Intended or not in this case (and, it clearly was unintended based on his subsequent withdrawal), that is something that typically occurs as part of the casual sexism in the industry and she, having noted that she's experienced this in the past, took it as such.

This really comes of as you trying to victimize her, and saying that she should victimize herself.

I totally get that this happens all the time, and in any different context, I would agree. But she went 0-100 right of the bat, because she assumed that he was just another sexist asshole trying to explain her job to her. Instead, she missed the opportunity to engage with a male fan who by all accounts loves the work she's doing.

If she had just bit her tongue for her first response, or at least tried to make the point without call him an "asshat", she would have had a good experience instead of a bad one.

Also, this is something everyone defending her seems to conveniently ignore. She could have made her point without name calling. Heck, she could have made her point while not addressing him in person whatsoever. And she probably wouldn't have gotten into trouble for it.
 

Steezus

Banned
Oct 31, 2017
89
User Banned (2 Weeks): Downplaying the effects of a hate movement. Account still in junior phase
Gotta love when Kotaku and the likes (I think it's interesting how ERA immediately shut down every thread about this until this article, where Price is being painted as the victim) want to twist the narrative to fit their gamergate agenda. This has nothing to do with gamergate. She acted like an asshole and played the sexism card where there was no sexism in sight. I don't necessarily think that her rant was a fireable offense, but the amount of people defending her is equally shocking.
 
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Omegamon

Alt Account
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,884
How did you know that wasn't the last straw of a recurring issue? From what I heard from others, she has an attitude problem. She had been working at ANet for 12 years. You think an employer would fire someone working that long if that was her first transgression?
She has been working for less than a year
 

Niceguydan8

Member
Nov 1, 2017
3,411
If it's the case that she's been a troublemaker for ANet for a long time, that's a different scenario entirely. But we don't know that, all we know is what happened here and now.

I'm probably coming at this from a biased perspective as someone who was harassed by GG directly, so forgive me for that. I just really see a dangerous precedent being set if those scumlords realize that all they need to do is needle people on Twitter until they've had enough and respond.

But you don't know, so saying stuff like "Bingo!" when talking about how she shouldn't have been fired doesn't make any sense, since you are assuming a scenario to be true since you lack the potential context.
 

Nome

Designer / Self-requested ban
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
3,312
NYC
The saying is that, "the customer is king" is true to a certain extent, but it's especially true that company value their relationships with specific customers very highly. If a relatively recent employee (Price had worked at Arenanet for one year prior to the incident) attacks a top customer, it's highly likely that the company will give them the boot regardless of industry. The one that seems more like a overreaction was the firing of Peter Fries, a 13 year veteran of the company, when his only crime appeared to be hitching his horse to the wrong wagon.
Piggybacking on this a bit, since I've seen some posters here compare the relative value of a developer vs. a content creator--specifically, insinuating that the developer is more valuable.

trumpwrong.gif

Loyal content creators are some of the most valuable assets your product can have. Not only for their outreach, but because paid content creators can be far more expensive than a mid-level employee's annual salary. Really wacky to think about, but it's true.
 

BeeKaine

Banned
Apr 21, 2018
736
I'm probably coming at this from a biased perspective as someone who was harassed by GG directly, so forgive me for that. I just really see a dangerous precedent being set if those scumlords realize that all they need to do is needle people on Twitter until they've had enough and respond.

It's a valid concern but besides the rather obvious caution of "don't fly off the handle even when you believe you're justified when you're representing a company" (I do seriously believe that if she had an actual private Twitter account this wouldn't have gotten far), GamerGate has done a lot of shit and rarely heard of anyone simply being fired for what they said on Twitter.
 

MrConbon210

Member
Oct 31, 2017
7,649
My friend, please look up what mansplaining is before you incorrectly try to explain why this isn't mansplaining. I give you something to get started: it's not limited to woman related issues.

He wasn't even explaining anything to her. He wasn't explaining what branching dialogue trees were like she was an idiot. He complimented her and then shared his opinion.
 
Oct 27, 2017
704
She had been working at ANet for 12 years. You think an employer would fire someone working that long if that was her first transgression?

Not to nitpick, but this is wrong. Price had worked at Arenanet for one year. You're probably thinking of Peter Fries, who was another casualty and had worked with the company for thirteen years.
 

take_marsh

Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,282
So this whole thing started due to a bit of an overreaction? Man, that's really sad.

And some people thinking she deserved firing for not taking a criticism well. That's some radical shit. Screw the possibility of regret and forgiveness I guess.

GG won this one.
 

Deleted member 15440

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
4,191
good to see that years after gamergate we still have people arguing that their targets actually deserve what's happened to them
 

senj

Member
Nov 6, 2017
4,436
Yes, that is exactly what she said in an email to Kotaku:

And this is what I don't get. It's not "her space", it's social media where everybody gets his or her own stage. If you don't want top have a conversation, start a company blog or something. But she chose Twitter and by that, she chose poorly. Because people react on there, it's what the mnedium is for.
She said that the uninvited advice was the straw that broke the camels back for her putting up with that shit. There's nothing there about her having a pattern of behaviour and her response being "the straw that broke the camels back" for her employers.

And nah, man. My personal twitter account is my space, not my employers. I'm not on the clock on Twitter, I'm there to blow off steam.
 

ParanoidRED

Banned
Nov 2, 2017
2,931
Gotta love when Kotaku and the likes (I think it's interesting how ERA immediately shut down every thread about this until this article, where Price is being painted as the victim) want to twist the narrative to fit their gamergate agenda. This has nothing to do with gamergate. She acted like an asshole and played the sexism card where there was no sexism in sight. I don't necessarily think that her rant was a fireable offense, but the amount of people defending her is equally shocking.
I'm honestly just pissed that some publication are throwing Deroir under the bus, the Buzzfeed piece on this is just a steaming pile of shit
 

daybreak

Member
Feb 28, 2018
2,415
She didn't refuse to turn the other cheek to her boss dude. She refused to take abuse from fucking twitter (which AFAIK was not part of her contract)

ArenaNet literally said she failed to uphold their standards for interactions with customers on social media.

So, yes, we know it was part of her contract.
 

matimeo

UI/UX Game Industry Veteran
Verified
Oct 26, 2017
979
Yeah I don't envy devs in today's world really. If you have a twitter account you're basically on the clock 24/7 and always have to watch what you say. It really sucks but it is what it is I guess.

It's just one reason I steer clear of social media. When I saw this story break I was kind of shocked as I have crossed paths with Jessica before years ago. It's a small industry.

For people who think her reaction was odd , as a minority woman who has been in gaming as long as Jessica it really is true; I have to always be ready to defend my position much more than my male colleagues despite my experience and accolades.

I only mention this because if that has happened to you over the years you can be somewhat mentally stuck and if you're not careful every piece of "feedback" can feel like yet another attack no matter how nicely it's worded. In fact the "nicer" it appears can be even more triggering. It's tiring to stay quiet , most of us have for YEARS. I assume she has gotten more outspoken over the years.

It's important to recognize this within yourself , it's how bias is grown within justified or not it filters all your interactions. That might mean pausing a few days before replying or apologizing if you misinterpret someone which happens a lot on social media and within the workplace. It also might mean recognizing you are not in a place for meaningful back and forth and ignoring comments.

Twitter probably isn't the best medium for what she was sharing given her past interactions on the platform where it seemed she felt under attack. That too can affect how one reacts.

I think as a developer working for someone else you have to decide to either engage with customers and non customers or not. Either way you are representing the company. MMO fans especially have always had strong opinions on the game. Most developers are the opposite of PR and don't have others running their social media accounts to provide screened replies. Developers tend to be very emotionally charged when speaking about their work.

Her response wasn't the best but I've had harsher ones I've said in person lol. I think the bigger issue is whether her interactions broke policy at Arenanet or was the "uprising" which included many non Arenanet fans enough pressure for Arenanet to terminate two long time employees. As others have said I tend to believe this was an opportunity Arenanet used to do something they always wanted to do anyway but lacked cause. Even though Washington is an at will state, companies tend to be very careful when getting rid of employees.

Can you imagine Steve Jobs on Twitter and his reactions to "designers" giving him feedback on product launches? I wish he was around today because the meltdowns would be amazing.
 

Apath

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,118
It's been explained many times in this thread already. Even if he wasn't intending that to be the case, it was understandably taken as such due to the context of the sexism that does exist in the industry. He went on to try an explain something to her that she clearly would have known about. Intended or not in this case (and, it clearly was unintended based on his subsequent withdrawal), that is something that typically occurs as part of the casual sexism in the industry and she, having noted that she's experienced this in the past, took it as such.
I am still confused by some of the responses. Jessica stated that she didn't want to give player characters too much of their own character because it can conflict with the player's own interpretation. Deroir responded that he believes branching dialogue options will allow more character while not contradicting the player's own interpretation.

How in the world is that mansplaining? Deroir wasn't explaining branching dialogue options to her. He was proposing it as discussion, because in his mind that would mitigate the issue.
 
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