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I just Watched The Last Jedi, why was it controversial??
- Thread starter konka
- Start date
- Luke's character development between the original trilogy and the sequels was not given enough time and therefore for some people it was hard to believe that it was supposed to be the same character. It doesn't help that it's also not what people expected him to be, and even the trailers were misleading, making people believe that Luke's 'it's time for the Jedi to end' line was teasing him coming up with a new philosophy instead of giving up because he failed.
- TFA teased Rey's parentage being important and Luke doing something important on that planet (why would he leave a secret map to his location if he wanted to die alone? TLJ never explains that because clearly that was not the original intent), both of which turned out to be not true (as far as TLJ tells us) and it feels like it was done just to do something unexpected, without actually giving a crap whether it makes sense or not.
- The amount and quality of comedy in the film was subpar to many
- Leia displaying never-before-seen Force techniques despite the fact it was never told or shown that she had any training. Luke was just a farmer kid before he was trained by Obi-Wan, he struggled to pull a lightsaber from a pile of snow in ESB and Leia can fly at high speeds in space?
- Snoke's backstory not being explained. We didn't know almost anything about the Emperor in the old trilogy either, but he wasn't as much of a prominent character as Snoke and didn't do anything relevant to the plot before he actually appeared on screen. Snoke was the reason behind most of the plot in TFA and TLJ, and we didn't get to learn who he even was and how or why he managed to convert Ben Solo. We were just told and shown that he was powerful and did big things.
- Technology and Force powers being shown that were too overpowered not to be used in the original trilogy. Forget about Yoda's lightning, if using lightspeed to make a bomb out of your ship could be a thing then it would trivialize any space battle. Just have a couple of pilots sacrifice in small ships and boom, no more Empire.
- More annoying plot holes, annoying characters and bad writing in general
Or, if you listen to some of the people who liked the movie, all the people who dislike TLJ are sexist basement dwellers who can't let go of their past.
I understand people can like it, I personally don't and many people share my feelings. There are also, unfortunately, pathetic, asshole losers who attack people they think are responsible for 'ruining their childhood', so it's hard to criticize the film without being accused of hating it because it had women and black people in it and not for its actual problems.
- TFA teased Rey's parentage being important and Luke doing something important on that planet (why would he leave a secret map to his location if he wanted to die alone? TLJ never explains that because clearly that was not the original intent), both of which turned out to be not true (as far as TLJ tells us) and it feels like it was done just to do something unexpected, without actually giving a crap whether it makes sense or not.
- The amount and quality of comedy in the film was subpar to many
- Leia displaying never-before-seen Force techniques despite the fact it was never told or shown that she had any training. Luke was just a farmer kid before he was trained by Obi-Wan, he struggled to pull a lightsaber from a pile of snow in ESB and Leia can fly at high speeds in space?
- Snoke's backstory not being explained. We didn't know almost anything about the Emperor in the old trilogy either, but he wasn't as much of a prominent character as Snoke and didn't do anything relevant to the plot before he actually appeared on screen. Snoke was the reason behind most of the plot in TFA and TLJ, and we didn't get to learn who he even was and how or why he managed to convert Ben Solo. We were just told and shown that he was powerful and did big things.
- Technology and Force powers being shown that were too overpowered not to be used in the original trilogy. Forget about Yoda's lightning, if using lightspeed to make a bomb out of your ship could be a thing then it would trivialize any space battle. Just have a couple of pilots sacrifice in small ships and boom, no more Empire.
- More annoying plot holes, annoying characters and bad writing in general
Or, if you listen to some of the people who liked the movie, all the people who dislike TLJ are sexist basement dwellers who can't let go of their past.
I understand people can like it, I personally don't and many people share my feelings. There are also, unfortunately, pathetic, asshole losers who attack people they think are responsible for 'ruining their childhood', so it's hard to criticize the film without being accused of hating it because it had women and black people in it and not for its actual problems.
My exact reaction when I first went to go see the movie.
Before I went to see it, (it was on the following Saturday after opening) I kept reading what a godawful, disappointing, cringe inducing pile of garbage it was.
Instead, I got the best Star Wars movie since Empire.
It just goes to show. People's opinions are THEIR opinions. Not necessarily yours. And you're never gonna know how you feel about a movie until you've seen it yourself.
Just requoting this so more people read it. I don't agree with everything (I honestly think the gender-related stuff is reading into things a bit much) it sheds some light on why film critics and people in the industry tend to love the movie. I'm also glad it pointed out the trend of people who dislike the film throwing around terms like "plot holes" and "bad writing" without understanding what they actually entail.
The movie's not perfect by any means and it falls a bit flat as a sequel to The Force Awakens, but the film itself is put together well.
Well the important thing is that you found a way to feel superior to both
Too many uneven points and honestly this is Star Wars the director should have caved and provided a bit more Luke Fan Service.
Star Wars has a HUGE elder fanbase that wanted a bit more fan service for the death of Luke. I don't think that was unreasonable to be honest and I think people arguing against it are being unrealistic.
"Eat your broccoli and LIKE IT! I don't care that the outcome of this will be a sizable fanbase will turn your backs on the franchise and wreck a billion dollar Star Wars Industry. I want you to eat Broccoli because I'm arrogant."
We ***ALL KNOW*** what the fanbase wanted. Why not throw them a bone?
Star Wars has a HUGE elder fanbase that wanted a bit more fan service for the death of Luke. I don't think that was unreasonable to be honest and I think people arguing against it are being unrealistic.
"Eat your broccoli and LIKE IT! I don't care that the outcome of this will be a sizable fanbase will turn your backs on the franchise and wreck a billion dollar Star Wars Industry. I want you to eat Broccoli because I'm arrogant."
We ***ALL KNOW*** what the fanbase wanted. Why not throw them a bone?
Jesus Christ at the first few posts in this thread. Ridiculous strawman posts all around.
It's fundamentally flawed. The B plot feels like it was added in a writers room when they realized they hadn't given Finn anything to do.
The main plot turns Star Wars into Battlestar Galactica, which isn't what anyone wanted.
Poe's subplot requires main characters to withhold key information from each other for no justifiable reason.
Just an incredibly poorly plotted movie. It needed a page one rewrite.
This is goddamn garbage and you know it. Hell, you've seen me post legit criticisms. You've replied to those posts.
It's fundamentally flawed. The B plot feels like it was added in a writers room when they realized they hadn't given Finn anything to do.
The main plot turns Star Wars into Battlestar Galactica, which isn't what anyone wanted.
Poe's subplot requires main characters to withhold key information from each other for no justifiable reason.
Just an incredibly poorly plotted movie. It needed a page one rewrite.
This is goddamn garbage and you know it. Hell, you've seen me post legit criticisms. You've replied to those posts.
Thing is, with Palpatine, we didn't really need to know more than we knew.
We knew he was the Emperor, that decades before A New Hope he conquered the galaxy in the great Clone Wars, that he knew Vader's true identity and yet kept his own true nature a secret. I don't know if anyone within the Empire besides Palpatine and Vader even knew he could use the Force, let alone that he was more powerful with it than anyone else in the trilogy. We also knew his goal - to continue ruling the galaxy, rooting out and destroying the Rebellion and scheming to replace Vader with Luke.
Do you really need more than that? Comparatively we know nothing about Snoke.
We don't know who he is, what he's been up to for the last 30~50 years, what his goals are, how he became Supreme Leader of the First Order, what the First Order even is, where they got the resources to make a planet that can wipe out entire Star systems and still have enough change to apparently manufacture a fleet large enough to conquer the galaxy within weeks, why he was scared of Luke Skywalker, why he was so interested in Rey...
Everything written here about episodeIX is trash fire tier.
"make Rey and Ren sibblings"
*barf*
Yeah, fucking Jar Jar is terrible too.
It's almost as if there's someone in charge who would write around those references and make it work. Are you arguing that you can't literally chop footage out of the movie? No shit. Their point was that the movie could have been written without all that and it wouldn't been the same (better, even).
Overall it's an awkward, uneven movie that left me feeling pretty apathetic about its quality. It does some amazing stuff, but as a story & structure overall it just felt kinda meh.
Bolded the parts that bugged me
re: Leia -- come on, don't discount that as misogyny only, if Luke or anyone else had that over the top cheesy ass scene I'd still dislike it.
Bolded the parts that bugged me
re: Leia -- come on, don't discount that as misogyny only, if Luke or anyone else had that over the top cheesy ass scene I'd still dislike it.
Yeah, I had basically the same reaction. I watched it roughly a week after release, having managed to avoid most of the post-release commentary and came away feeling like this was the first Star Wars movie released in my lifetime that lived up to every ounce of the hype. It had some cringey moments but those were the exception in a movie filled with strong acting, breathtaking visuals, and the most compelling plot of any post-OT Star Wars movie. The somewhat mixed fan reaction really caught me off guard when I started reading through them, this should be a unanimously praised film.
This thread continues to reaffirm to me that of the people that liked the movie on this forum, there's a negative correlation between the amount of time they've engaged with the movie's detractors and how much they're able to reproduce their arguments. It's really bizarre.
It would be piss easy to write Finn and Poe out of the film entirely without missing a beat.
That shouldn't be possible. In a movie like Empire, the main plot absolutely does not work without the B plot. You know, like things should be in a movie with proper story structure.
Now that it's on Netflix I will finally be watching the movie at some point this weekend. I am going in w/ the absolute lowest expectations so I hope I'm pleasantly surprised. My guess is it will be in between a complete dumpster fire and the best movie in the franchise, it's too divisive to be either extreme.
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But like we don't need to be told everything. You can infer a lot of this stuff.
1.) What is the First Order? It's clearly whatever remnants were left of the Empire that coalesced around a guy name Snoke who has force powers and was able to consolidate his power into being Supreme Leader.
2.) They have the resources of whatever areas are still loyal to them/they control after the breakup of the Empire.
3.) A lot of the fleet is likely old Empire stock. The ship builders, ship yards, private weapons manufacturers, etc didn't all vanish once the Emperor was thrown in a pit.
4.) He was clearly scared of Luke Skywalker because Luke is a Jedi legend who destroyed the Empire? Probably best to get that kinda person out of the way for good if you're looking to reboot said Empire.
4.) He was was interested in Rey because she's a random person who can manipulate the force. He wasn't so interested that he wasn't going to kill her once he found out where Luke was.
To be fair, we do know some things about Snoke:
1. He isn't a Sith. He's a powerful dark force user who gained control of the Imperial Remnant.
2. He's powerful and was able to seduce Ben Solo to the dark side.
3. His goal is to end the Jedi, and rule over the galaxy not unlike Palpatine.
In essence, he's a palpatine wannabe who took over the power vacuum resulting from Vader and Sidious' death. The biggest things I think people wanted to know were:
A. How could such a powerful dark side user evade Vader/Palpatine:
Answer: By hiding in the outer rim apparently.
B. How did he seduce Ben to the dark side?
Answer: Awkwardly and because of how inattentive Ben's family were. Once we see Snoke's abilities in regards to his "psychic" abilities with the force, manipulating Ben suddenly seems easy.
I do think the biggest unknown at this point is, what exactly was Kylo Ren and Snoke's relationship with the force? They aren't Sith, so what is there philosophy? The answer is probably that they are Sith in everything but name, but this is awkwardly handled.
I've yet to rewatch it so I might be misremembering some stuff.
Aside from the Disney cheesiness in the dialogue, I think it suffered the most from having a very simple overall plot (the Resistance was running away) with individual plot "reveals" that I didn't find super compelling, until Luke's big scene. I also thought Rey's development was iffy with how she interacted with Kylo, but I really liked most of the other character dynamics. Aside from that, the Star Wars-y elements like the locales, visuals, and mystical stuff were very nice, and as of now it's up there with ESB, ANH, and TFA for me.
Aside from the Disney cheesiness in the dialogue, I think it suffered the most from having a very simple overall plot (the Resistance was running away) with individual plot "reveals" that I didn't find super compelling, until Luke's big scene. I also thought Rey's development was iffy with how she interacted with Kylo, but I really liked most of the other character dynamics. Aside from that, the Star Wars-y elements like the locales, visuals, and mystical stuff were very nice, and as of now it's up there with ESB, ANH, and TFA for me.
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Both they and Luke/Jedi are trying to do things that are basically lost to history. They are both attempts to reclaim old traditions but without all the knowledge and strict discipline that they had in the past. It's like when tribes would invade Rome back in the day and crown themselves as the Roman Emperor. They are attempting to step into something that really no longer exists as best they can but can really only piece together parts of it. That's my understanding of what its like. The formalities of what made Jedi/Sith are gone to history.
For some reason it drove a lot of people crazy and they haven't been able to let it go.
It's ok to just stop liking Star Wars, you can let go at any time.
It's ok to just stop liking Star Wars, you can let go at any time.
I could go pretty much scene by scene and see something I hate about it. It starts with space bombers and a prank phone call gag and pretty much only gets worse from there. I could go on, but it would just be a cut and paste of what is in every other thread.
It also doesn't help that it's pretty much devolved into 'you must hate women if you didn't like it' bullshit.
It also doesn't help that it's pretty much devolved into 'you must hate women if you didn't like it' bullshit.
Real talk though: Anyone who thinks Attack of the Clones was better than The Last Jedi be trippin'
I don't recall any complaints that Palpatine was too exposition heavy. We were able to infer a lot about him from what we were shown and what we were told. That's significantly different to filling in the gaps ourselves, which we have to do with Snoke.
Worse yet he's dead now so unless Ben becomes super guilt-ridden over killing Snoke and starts having flashbacks of the time they ate ice cream together on Coruscant, chances are we won't get satisfying answers to "what was the point of Snoke?"
It did a great job with Rey, Luke and Kylo, but everything else makes it not worth a second watch. They kind of let down fans of Finn and Oscar Issac, imo. They ruined those characters, imo. Not a big JJ dude, but I bet he'll at least try to give something to the other core cast to do next time.
As it stands, it was a great Rey story with a bunch of shit around it.
Notes:
Everything to do with the bureaucratic power-jockying on the ship after Leia was fridged was boring and pointless.
Why ice Leia like that? Why? At least have her do fucking something. Is Carey Fisher that terrible to work with as a human being that they had only limited time with her?
Rey and Kylo should have done a little more...
Kanto Bight is one of the worse things in a star wars movie - it didn't sell the whole failure angle because it was so tedious to watch.
I don't get the Luke complaints - I thought it made a lot of sense for Luke to be like that.
And I'll be honest - Rose was a worse character than Jar Jar.
The movie made a boat load of money though - so who cares?
As it stands, it was a great Rey story with a bunch of shit around it.
Notes:
Everything to do with the bureaucratic power-jockying on the ship after Leia was fridged was boring and pointless.
Why ice Leia like that? Why? At least have her do fucking something. Is Carey Fisher that terrible to work with as a human being that they had only limited time with her?
Rey and Kylo should have done a little more...
Kanto Bight is one of the worse things in a star wars movie - it didn't sell the whole failure angle because it was so tedious to watch.
I don't get the Luke complaints - I thought it made a lot of sense for Luke to be like that.
And I'll be honest - Rose was a worse character than Jar Jar.
The movie made a boat load of money though - so who cares?
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There are various reasons why he didn't write Luke actually showing up on Caito Bight, Luke getting blown up being one of them.
I was clearly talking about the films not the franchise as a whole. Like the film literally establishes what would've happened to Luke, he'd have been killed full stop without ever even getting the chance to light his lightsaber.
This is a star wars film, how are a new hope, empire strikes back, or Return of the jedi even remotely subtle about what they're conveying? If anything there's more showing then telling in this film overall when it comes to the point. Congrats on being old enough to see the messaging compared to when you were a kid.
You don't have to be a misogynist to not be able to handle emasculation. Poe clearly isn't a misogynist, but oh boy is he like a walking talking example of what mansplaining looks like.
What was Poe's character in TFA besides cocky pilot? He was barely a character in that film, here he's given much more characterization, and characterization includes flaws.
Did you miss the part where Holdo's sacrifice literally did nothing but delay the FO? Apparently that point was lot on you but please tell us more about how the messaging of the film is too overt as you constantly miss the point.
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I didn't love TLJ but it was fine. I've been on the outside of this whole controversy and figured it was due to:
1. Luke's antics for the finale are crazy powerful. Like, questionably even possible
2. Leia's space walk
Both of these scenes raised an eyebrow for me but whatever.
1. Luke's antics for the finale are crazy powerful. Like, questionably even possible
2. Leia's space walk
Both of these scenes raised an eyebrow for me but whatever.
Because it's horribly written and its defense force attempts to hide this by associating the very idea of not enjoying the movie with either alt-right pricks, headcanon-obsessed slimy fans, or both.
Uh no they literally don't. Sorry but not following your fan theory doesn't mean they retconned, ignored, or rewrote anything.
Also I will continue to be downright offended when people call Rose a worse character than a racist caricature.
1. The Trailers aleady showed that Luke wasn't going to be the Hero they expected. People had expectations and they didn't get what they wanted.
2. Luke didn't left a map. He left looking for the first jedi temple, that was lost in the archives. The map had a piece of a map, incomplete, that could lead to said temple, the Empire Archives had another part of the map. The quest in TFA was about completing the map with pieces, that could help find if Luke's actually there.
3. Luke could use the Force to destroy the Death Star, Leia in the OT showed connection to the Force, and in TFA. She just tried to stay alive and let the Force guide her, like in ESB.
4. Snoke wasn't really relevant. People expected, again, for him to be, but missed the Point that it became Kylo's story of being the ultimate bad guy. He fulfilled what Vader started: to become the ultimate dark lord. Snoke wasn't that important in TFA either, he showed in a couple of time, but his importance is turning Kylo to the darkside. We then discover that Luke also helped, so Snoke was powerful but only half important in the ONLY thing he's actually important.
5. Hyperspeed Ram is explained if you actually understand space battles in Star Wars. In TLJ the move didn't destroyed Snoke's ship, but crippled a "wing". The rest of the fleet is destroyed by the shrapnel of the collision. Do you think that shooting a bullet at a building will destroy it ?
So yeah, when those complaints are actually either completely fine by SW standards, movies and lore, or aren't the big deal people wanted/expected/think they are, a lot of said complaints come off as something else.
Don't get me wrong, the movie has flaws, in writing, pacing, etc. but lot of them come into "but my Star Wars lore!" and miss the point.
Agreed, It's low effort posting, and adds nothing to the conversation.
"Her SiSteR TotEs ShOUld've been thE chARActER...TOTes HAS NoTHInG To dO WITh How atTrACtiVE i finD EACH ACTreSs."
I've seen this argument on Twitter a few times and it never ceases to blow my goddamn mind.
I liked TLJ.
I was fine with Luke, Holdo, etc.
My only gripe was the seemingly forced romance between Rose and Finn, and her suicidal crash into him (which left her in a coma and could have easily killed Finn too) to block his own suicide attempt to stop the laser. Which at the time, was the only hope they had at escaping. I didn't mind Rose otherwise.
Canto Bite was ok. Could have been better. The casino scenes were missing something that the Mos Eisley cantina/Jabba's palace had, idk.
I was fine with Luke, Holdo, etc.
My only gripe was the seemingly forced romance between Rose and Finn, and her suicidal crash into him (which left her in a coma and could have easily killed Finn too) to block his own suicide attempt to stop the laser. Which at the time, was the only hope they had at escaping. I didn't mind Rose otherwise.
Canto Bite was ok. Could have been better. The casino scenes were missing something that the Mos Eisley cantina/Jabba's palace had, idk.
Best to Worst Star Wars movie (not counting the spinoffs)
Tier S++
1. Empire Strikes Back (original cut)
Tier A+
2. Return of The Jedi (original cut - yub nub)
3. Star Wars (original cut)
Tier B
4. The Force Awakens
Tier D-
5. Revenge of The Sith
6. The Last Jedi
Tier E-
7. The Phantom Menace
Tier F-----
8. Attack of the Clones
Tier S++
1. Empire Strikes Back (original cut)
Tier A+
2. Return of The Jedi (original cut - yub nub)
3. Star Wars (original cut)
Tier B
4. The Force Awakens
Tier D-
5. Revenge of The Sith
6. The Last Jedi
Tier E-
7. The Phantom Menace
Tier F-----
8. Attack of the Clones
I'd say it was mostly at-righters and "my precious headcanon" folks making it a big controversy.
A lot of the criticisms circle back to either of those two things.
A lot of the criticisms circle back to either of those two things.
Because it sucked.
I swear some fans of TLJ cannot handle other people just thinking the film was ass. Which it was.
But it feels like a lot of people on here hold the viewpoint that if you didn't like the film it's because you're a Skywalker dick rider who's upset about his role or character, or you hate women or minority actors.
I swear some fans of TLJ cannot handle other people just thinking the film was ass. Which it was.
But it feels like a lot of people on here hold the viewpoint that if you didn't like the film it's because you're a Skywalker dick rider who's upset about his role or character, or you hate women or minority actors.
It's funny because if you post a clip in any SW thread of a clip from the prequels they get outright ignored because no one is willing to bother to defend anything besides the base premises of those films because they fail so spectacularly during the vast majority of scenes. And someone a couple pages back legit called the prequel films subtle lmfao.
Like you could post any clip from TFA and TLJ and you'd be met with gorgeous compositions, scene direction and acting. Because they're great films. Genuinely night and day when it comes to every measure of quality:
Whenever people say we needed more exposition I genuinely can't take them seriously when there's so much showing on the screen. Like I've seen people genuinely argue that the film didn't telegraph what was about to happen to Luke:
I've seen people argue that Finn's sacrifice would've worked:
I've seen people argue that Canto Bight didn't affect events in the film:
It's just bad fucking film criticism that shows a startling lack of understanding and/or purposeful disingenuousness, god help us if social media was around during the release of Empire Strikes Back because peeps would've been arguing that the events on the way to Cloud City would've had no point.
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Do you disagree? I can't think of a movie that had a reception this extreme. Sorry if that sounds like I am trying to be above the fray, I hated the movie and have said why a dozen times already.
User warned: Inflammatory comments and arguing in bad faith
Welcome to resetera, buddy. If you disagree with the Approved View TM, you're LITERALLY a nazi.