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StuBurns

Self Requested Ban
Banned
Nov 12, 2017
7,273
You don't see that as an issue? This is one of the things that people are complaining about. In order for his character arcs to work, Rian Johnson twisted already established characters and shoehorned them into situations that didn't make sense because he couldn't make the movie work otherwise.
I certainly think it is a giant issue. I think that entire story completely fell flat to me, and I think they ruined his character in the process. But in a simple who's to blame, it's him over Dern's character without question. I'm not saying I don't also think it was just a very bad decision to have the scenario take place at all.

It's funny with this film, because it feels like two films, and one of them I mostly like, and one I hate. We can call them Rebellion/First Order and Jedi/Sith halves. Other than a few poor uses of humour, and the utter stupidity of Snoke not being able to read Ren's coup plot, I love that half of the film. I think it works incredibly well, I love the way Luke went out, I love how Ren breaks Rey's heart when she thinks she's turned him for him to just completely pull the rung out from under her and assume command himself. A lot of the issues people have with that half of the film, I don't have at all, I thought it was sublime.

The Rebellion/First Order half however... I hate it. I hate Poe's mutiny, it's fucking stupid. I hate the 'chase'. I hate casino world. None of it worked for me. The hyperspace ramming is visually remarkable, but it completely tarnishes every other assault in the history of the series.

I thought it was really weak. TFA is extremely safe, but I still enjoyed it more or less from start to finish.
 

greatgeek

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,812
You could just look up what's wrong with TLJ. There are more than enough videos explaining that on youtube. Or you could pose that question on a forum where people who lack critical thinking can blindly defend it so that you not challenge your point of view.
Do you have anything to offer in these threads beyond citing YouTube videos, as authoritative as they might be, and calling people who defend TLJ mindless fanboys?

Like, literally, nobody ever questioned that women can be respected, authoritative leaders in the SW fiction until Rian Johnson decided to introduce the concept. This movie is so fucking dumb
That misogyny wasn't explored in previous movies doesn't mean that it didn't exist in the universe.
 

Nemesis121

Member
Nov 3, 2017
13,846
I hated the movie because Snoke got cut down like nothing by a bitch still wearing his Sith diapers..I don't care about Luke , the movie will be redeemed if Snoke is still alive...you can't build a super villain then choose to cut him down like swiss cheese, sheeeeesh..
 

BossAttack

Member
Oct 27, 2017
43,007
Agreed. Each time the movie wants to get a message through to you it resorts to beating you over the head with it repeatedly.

Listen, that is Star Wars. The series has never been subtle, it's supposed to be grand and operatic. We're talking about a series where the bad guys dress as Nazis and have evil Red Lightsabers. Star Wars is not subtle. The one time it tried to be subtle, the prequels, everyone hated it. Like, some people still don't understand that Jedi in the prequels are a bunch of prideful fools who were so blinded by their own arrogance that they couldn't see their real enemy right in front of them. Now, the execution of the prequels was FAR from perfect, but it was an attempt at a more subtle Star Wars. And, people seem to be incapable of grasping its most basic points.

Then again, it seems Star Wars needs to beat its message over the head of its audience members as you still have people confused as to what the message of TLJ was. Shit, people still think that the message is, "Kill the Past."

I hated the movie because Snoke got cut down like nothing by a bitch still wearing his Sith diapers..I don't care about Luke , the movie will be redeemed if Snoke is still alive...you can't build a super villain then choose to cut him down like swiss cheese, sheeeeesh..

And, thank god he's gone. Safety Hat JJ would've doomed us to face Palpatine 2.0 as the big final villain. Fuck off. We already had that, think of something new.
 
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greatgeek

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,812
Then again, it seems Star Wars need to beat its message over the head of its audience members as you still have people confused as to what the message of TLJ was. Shit, people still think that the message is, "Kill the Past."
Not to mention all the complaints about TLJ's story or particular story threads being "pointless".
 

Visanideth

Banned
Oct 31, 2017
4,771
That misogyny wasn't explored in previous movies doesn't mean that it didn't exist in the universe.


So with one hand we criticize developers for putting racism and misoginy in their fictional worlds, we encourage them to exclude or at least sideline racism and misoginy from historical settings in order make the games more inclusive, and then we imply that misoginy exists in a setting that did precisely what we're asking for right now 40 YEARS AGO because we want to... fight misoginy?


Really we have a fantasy world that tells us "here women and men are equal and equally respected, and women are powerful leaders and warriors" from the get go, from 1979, and thanks to RJ's (who oddly never gets accused of being a middle age white man fumbling his virtue signaling efforts) now we have to introduce and imply it exists?

Are you trying to make me hate this movie more?
 

Visanideth

Banned
Oct 31, 2017
4,771
Listen, that is Star Wars. The series has never been subtle, it's supposed to be grand and operatic. We're talking about a series where the bad guys dress as Nazis and have evil Red Lightsabers. Star Wars is not subtle. The one time it tried to be subtle, the prequels, everyone hated it. Like, some people still don't understand that Jedi in the prequels are a bunch of prideful fools who were so blinded by their own arrogance that they couldn't see their real enemy right in front of them. Now, the execution of the prequels was FAR from perfect, but it was an attempt at a more subtle Star Wars. And, people seem to be incapable of grasping its most basic points.


Yep. It is what it is. TLJ may be particularly repetitive with its messaging, but subtlety isn't a SW staple for sure.

Not to mention all the complaints about TLJ's story or particular story threads being "pointless".

I don't think pointless is a fitting world. But there's a lot of meandering plot points that aren't half as clever as they think they are. The rationalization for Rose's final words right after Holdo's suicide run is a damning juxtaposition. The message just isn't strong and coherent. Finn's "the fuck are you talking about" expression perfectly fits the scene.
 

Reven Wolf

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
4,563
TLJ had way worse inconsistency with the lore.
How so?

On reflection, Finn should have asleep for the entire movie, and then they could have woken him up at the end so he can actually do something consequential in IX...
So you felt that Finn shouldn't have had such a big impact on the story in 8?

WHY DID THEY DO THAT TO MY BOYS LUKE AND AKBAR?

TO KILL THE PAST

That's not the theme of the movie though.
'm starting to understand the frustration about reading comprehension.

What I'm saying is that by the time Luke pulls the Force projection stunt Kylo has experienced 4 different instances of force projection, he has seen Luke interrupt their projection and display awareness of what's going on, and he's been told by Snoke that it was Snoke who facilitate it. I've not seen the movie in a while but I also think there's a moment he tells Rey "the effort could kill her", so he's getting a pretty good idea of what's going on.

Can he use Force Projection? No. He knows what it is? He pretty much has a good idea by the end of the movie, and when Luke goes Super Sayan and nobody questions what's going on, it's just the umpteen case of RJ wanting to have his cake and eat it. Everyone turns into an idiot to facilitate the exact scene fans are criticized for having wanted to see.

Just wanted to mention that what Luke did is pretty different from what Kylo experiences throughout the movie.

With what Kylo experiences there seems to be an implication that all they can really see is each other (so Kylo sees Rey standing infront of him and vice versa). This is supported by him asking her if she can see his surroundings etc.

While Kylo is aware of projections, Luke was reacting to his surroundings, which would throw him off.

Then there's also the whole issue that Kylo, for all his talk of letting go of the past is incapable of letting go. Every time he's reminded he loses his shit and makes foolish orders in an attempt to kill his past:
tumblr_p1ata5tSoI1wg42gco1_540.gif


Also Hux does question Kylo and gets his ass tossed like a toy.

The rationalization for Rose's final words right after Holdo's suicide run is a damning juxtaposition.

I don't see how it is?

Holdo did the only thing she could to quite literally protect the resistance (presumably what she loved).

Finn was going to get himself killed literally talking about he wasn't going to let them win.

There's also the whole issue of his ship visibly falling apart and moving slower as he moved towards the cannon, heavily implying that it wouldn't have worked and he would have thrown his life for nothing.
 
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Visanideth

Banned
Oct 31, 2017
4,771
Just wanted to mention that what Luke did is pretty different from what Kylo experiences throughout the movie.

With what Kylo experiences there seems to be an implication that all they can really see is each other (so Kylo sees Rey standing infront of him and vice versa). This is supported by him asking her if she can see his surroundings etc.

While Kylo is aware of projections, Luke was reacting to his surroundings, which would throw him off.

That's reasonable. It's not a point I'm not particularly hung up about - I'm fine with Kylo being a klutz in the story, even if I don't find it a particularly interesting development expecially after he's one of the best elements of the movie till then - but notice that the original discussion was about CrossingEden simultaneously wanting SW to be "grounded" and yet everyone fall for Luke Skywalker actually surviving a barrage of siege-weapon level blasters.

Either you accept the EU (ie clone wars) exists and people tell tales of how Mace Windu faced an army alone and won and thus make Luke's feats theorycally believe them... or you need to say "SW is grounded, what Luke did was clearly impossible, but everyone is an idiot" because if you accept the first option you open the door to those who say Luke could have been there and have done something.

It's basically CrossingEden painting her/himself in a corner.
 

greatgeek

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,812
Really we have a fantasy world that tells us "here women and men are equal and equally respected, and women are powerful leaders and warriors" from the get go, from 1979, and thanks to RJ's (who oddly never gets accused of being a middle age white man fumbling his virtue signaling efforts) now we have to introduce and imply it exists?
I think you're overstating sex equality in the OT. There were what, two female characters in elevated positions? 99% of all military characters in the OT were men. RJ's "virtue signaling" didn't twist the universe much at all to reduce the military authority of women.
 

Eggiem

Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,782
Dude, you are talking about a franchise that has had MULTIPLE poop jokes MULTIPLE fart jokes MULTIPLE burb jokes and you have your panties in a bunch about Poe trolling Hux?

Really?

REALLY???

Yeah TLJ really ruined Star Wars with its childish humor, in this super serious mature franchise.

Did you watch the video? I know that the prequels were bad too in that regard.
 

Visanideth

Banned
Oct 31, 2017
4,771
I think you're overstating sex equality in the OT. There were what, two female characters in elevated positions? 99% of all military characters in the OT were men. RJ's "virtue signaling" didn't twist the universe much at all to reduce the military authority of women.

The first movie has Leia Organa and Mon Mothma as the leaders of the Resistance. Nobody ever looks down on them for their gender. There's female soldiers, female officers, female pilots in every movie. The PT is also filled with female characters in positions of authority and it doesn't sexualize or discriminate any of them. The only real instance is Jabba's palace.

I don't think it's a small twist at all and even the smallest twist can be too much in this regard. We keep saying we shouldn't put misoginy in fiction and that we should be inclusive. What RJ was short-sighted and also ineffective.
 

-Pyromaniac-

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,376
They did my dude Finn super dirty lol. I remember back when people thought he'd be hot shit, instead he was relegated to shitty pointless B-plot which was not only shitty for the character, but detracted from the entire movie. I'm all for Rey being the focus but you can prop two people up...but seems like not a lot of people know how to write black characters/heroes. Or what to do with them. So they made him second or third fiddle, connected him with another minority in a stupid love plot, and even when he tried to have his big moment at the end got blue balled. It's the thought that counts I guess. But yeah, they did Finn dirty.

Other than that, as someone who grew up in the 90s and was never crazily connected to Star Wars, I thought the movie was solid, but not great. I thought Rey thinking she could change Kylo was both cheesy/trope filled in the sense of girl thinks she can changed damaged boy, but it also provided some of the better emotional beats so...whatever. Luke was OK too, I'm not too upset we didn't get to see some crazy feats. He did kind of come and go a little quickly but I'll have to catch the third movie to see if his actions have a lasting impact on anything.

TLDR: solid movie, can't hate, can't say a ton of positive. Decent scifi flick. That's what Star Wars always to me though, good scifi movies. Was never a super fan.
 

BossAttack

Member
Oct 27, 2017
43,007
What was the message of the movie in your opinion? I'd like to hear what you got out of it.

It's not rocket science, the movie screams them at you:

1) Failure is the greatest teacher, do no not hide from your mistakes learn from them and pass them on. Luke Skywalker ran away and buried his head in the sand after failing utterly with Ben Solo. He believes that "killing" the Jedi is the only way to right his wrong, he is adopting Kylo's mantra of "killing the past." Yoda shows up to literally hit him on the had and tell him that is wrong. The past must be respected, but not worshiped or killed. You learn from it and do better, passing your failures on to the next generation to they can learn to avoid them as well.

2) Sacrificial Heroics are good, but they will fail without a True Leader.
Poe is a hero, but he thinks only tactically. He thinks only of the direct battle in front of him and isn't afraid to die to accomplish that objective. But, he fails to understand leadership or strategy. A good leader knows when to live to fight another day, that not every battle can be won by throwing yourself against the enemy walls.

3) There is Power in Legends and Hope. Luke believe his legend is a detriment and a failure. That because of his legend he failed Ben. He also must learn to accept that his Legend gave people Hope, and Hope is what can win an entire war. The belief that one man can hold of an entire army is enough to reinvigorate the fighting spirit of the entire galaxy.

4) Believe in Yourself. Perhaps the simplest theme, Rey has to learn that she doesn't have to rely on everyone else to save the galaxy. That if she believes in herself she can become a legend the same as Luke Skywalker or Kylo Ren.

5) Commit to a Cause, to helping others, not just your own selfish desires. The clear arc of Finn. He has to learn that the Rebellion is more than just saving Rey who he "loves." That the conflict is bigger than that, that kids are being sold into slavery and whole planets being snuffed out by TFO. The Rebellion isn't just about Rey, it's about those kids too. So, commit to aiding the Rebellion and not just trying to save your one person (Admittedly this message is bungled a bit by Rose's line near the end and Finn's death run).

6) Leaders come in all shapes, sizes, and looks. A continuing theme of Star Wars that is further continued with Holdo.


Those are some of the major themes, there are plenty of others within the film.

They did my dude Finn super dirty lol. I remember back when people thought he'd be hot shit, instead he was relegated to shitty pointless B-plot which was not only shitty for the character, but detracted from the entire movie. I'm all for Rey being the focus but you can prop two people up...but seems like not a lot of people know how to write black characters/heroes. Or what to do with them. So they made him second or third fiddle, connected him with another minority in a stupid love plot, and even when he tried to have his big moment at the end got blue balled. It's the thought that counts I guess. But yeah, they did Finn dirty.

No lies detected.
 

greatgeek

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,812
The first movie has Leia Organa and Mon Mothma as the leaders of the Resistance. Nobody ever looks down on them for their gender. There's female soldiers, female officers, female pilots in every movie. The PT is also filled with female characters in positions of authority and it doesn't sexualize or discriminate any of them. The only real instance is Jabba's palace.

I don't think it's a small twist at all and even the smallest twist can be too much in this regard. We keep saying we shouldn't put misoginy in fiction and that we should be inclusive. What RJ was short-sighted and also ineffective.
The bolded is false. As far as putting misogyny in fiction, I don't see a problem in putting in it fiction in order to criticize it. But yes, you can disagree as to how effective fiction is in doing so.
 

Raptomex

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,249
I don't understand most of the controversy, myself. I thought it was a decent Star Wars film. Not excellent but not terrible, either. It's most certainly not the worst SW film ever made. That award goes to Attack of the Clones in my opinion. If anything, this was just a chase film.
 

Deleted member 5666

user requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
14,753
The first movie has Leia Organa and Mon Mothma as the leaders of the Resistance. Nobody ever looks down on them for their gender. There's female soldiers, female officers, female pilots in every movie.
Are you being serious right now? This is a lie. Period.

A New Hope had ONE SINGLE FEMALE in the ENTIRE rebellion. Every other rebel, be it a soldier, or the leadership on Yavn was a white male.

Every. Single. One.

ESB had a few token background females on the Hoth Base but not one single soldier or pilot was female in the film. All of them were white men.

ROTJ added a few more backgroujd females and Mothma but every single human Rebel who fought kn endor except Leia was a white male.
 

Visanideth

Banned
Oct 31, 2017
4,771
The bolded is false. As far as putting misogyny in fiction, I don't see a problem in putting in it fiction in order to criticize it. But yes, you can disagree as to how effective fiction is in doing so.


I think context is important. Star Wars isn't a particularly deep, character driven fictional world that discusses real world themes in details. It's a power fantasy set in an incredibly lush and colourful universe where good guys fight space nazis helped by sword-wielding wizards.

And it's particularly important to this fantasy that it's inclusive to everybody. It's a world where black people weren't enslaved and women aren't discriminated or belittled. It's a world were race isn't ever an issue and genders are equal. And that is important. It has to be welcoming to everybody. It's an escapist fantasy.

We can't simultaneously criticize Ron Howard for making slaves in Solo egregiously black and praise RJ for introducing the concept of misoginy to the setting after 7 movies and an inordinate amount of shows and books.
 

Khanimus

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
40,212
Greater Vancouver
Insecure nerds. It's one thing to say a movie has problems, but the amount of people shitting themselves in anger that Luke wasn't some masturbatory fantasy of space Jesus blowing shit up, that they dared make jokes, or that they dared include an Asian lady among a cast that already emphasizes female roles more than previous films, etc. is nothing short of fucking embarrassing and making me sick of Star Wars fandom.
 

Meia

Member
Oct 26, 2017
1,015



Covers a lot of why I think the movie in general is pretty terrible.


In short, everything any of our main characters tries to do fails horribly, the main plot is an extended chase scene designed to just waste time, some of the major areas of the movie looked like they were ripped straight from the reviled prequel trilogy, and the movie literally throws away any set-up the prior movie had and leaves you with no place to go at the end of the middle part of a trilogy.



I also kind of hate how now there's this feeling that anyone who hates the movie MUST be a manbaby and their opinions are nuts. It's kind of eerily similar to the hate the people who didn't like the new Ghostbusters got, not because it too was a terrible movie, but because people hate women?
 

Visanideth

Banned
Oct 31, 2017
4,771
Are you being serious right now? This is a lie. Period.

A New Hope had ONE SINGLE FEMALE in the ENTIRE rebellion. Every other rebel, be it a soldier, or the leadership on Yavn was a white male.

Every. Single. One.

ESB had a few token background females on the Hoth Base but not one single soldier or pilot was female in the film. All of them were white men.

ROTJ added a few more backgroujd females and Mothma but every single human Rebel who fought kn endor except Leia was a white male.


I didn't start cataloguing apparitions because it was 1979 through the 80s. Obviously it wasn't perfect.

The point is that from the get go we get to see women in positions of command. By RotJ we can say that there's no single instance of any female character's authority being questioned because of her gender, no instance of women being shown as incompetent, unreliable or untrustworthy, and in general no moment in which it's tonally remarked that a character is female.


The only Star Wars movie where misoginy is actually a thing in the setting is TLJ. There's no wishing it away. Women being questioned as leaders in the SW fiction is something Rian Johnson introduced.
 

greatgeek

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,812
I think context is important. Star Wars isn't a particularly deep, character driven fictional world that discusses real world themes in details. It's a power fantasy set in an incredibly lush and colourful universe where good guys fight space nazis helped by sword-wielding wizards.

And it's particularly important to this fantasy that it's inclusive to everybody. It's a world where black people weren't enslaved and women aren't discriminated or belittled. It's a world were race isn't ever an issue and genders are equal. And that is important. It has to be welcoming to everybody. It's an escapist fantasy.

We can't simultaneously criticize Ron Howard for making slaves in Solo egregiously black and praise RJ for introducing the concept of misoginy to the setting after 7 movies and an inordinate amount of shows and books.
The last several months of discussion about this movie haven't given me the impression that women have felt excluded from SW because TLJ tries to discredit a character's misogyny-tinged doubts about a female military leader. It has seemed like anger towards this message has been about...well, we know what that's been about.
 

Visanideth

Banned
Oct 31, 2017
4,771
The last several months of discussion about this movie haven't given me the impression that women have felt excluded from SW because TLJ tries to discredit a character's misogyny-tinged doubts about a female military leader. It has seemed like anger towards this message has been about...well, we know what that's been about.

I admit I have seen precious little discussion from women about the movie to be honest.

My frame of reference being my sister and two girls in our "nerd group" (my wife hates SW) and they were bothered by it, to different levels. For the most part they were bothered by the fridging of Leia and spending most of the movie bonding with two female characters who die - practically and figuratively - in the last minutes of the movie. My sister observed how come next movie they're left with Rey and whatever can be done to salvage poor Rose after the movie turns her into a lovestruck teenager who reads too much bad poetry in the final minutes (not my words).

One girl said "just what we needed, misoginy in Star Wars!" when we discussed the movie afterward, which is what made me realize the issue. Before she pointed it out I was mostly focused on other, more nerdish things (that damn hyperspace jump!) and the "social commentary" of Holdo's character had pretty much left me unaffected.
 

mordecaii83

Avenger
Oct 28, 2017
6,862
Because it's a bad movie. No controversy, just didn't enjoy it at all. Obviously that's just my opinion though.
 

Deleted member 5666

user requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
14,753
I apologize if this has been posted before. Its a worth a read to understand how Rian Johnson screwed the next movie.

http://scriptshadow.net/is-star-wars-ix-the-most-difficult-screenplay-to-write-in-history/
Yeah that article is a complete joke. TLJ sets up 9 perfectly. So many interesting directions for it go in.

How does the First Krdsr function with two incompetent young guys who dont have a grand plan unlike Snoke or Palpatine?

What does Rey learn from those ancient Jedi texts she took? Does she train anyone?

Whats the time jump between 8 and 9? How much time had passed since TLJ? What is the current state of the galaxy?

How had the Resistance grown and changed nks that Luke was the spark to light and inspired people across the galaxy?

What is ghost Luke up to? Trolling Kylo? Talking with Rey?
 

Deleted member 7051

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
14,254
Not to mention all the complaints about TLJ's story or particular story threads being "pointless".

It's hard to complain about those complaints when a good 60% of the movie could be taken out and the only difference it'd make is the movie would be 90 minutes long. Generally speaking, if Rey, Ben or Luke aren't in the scene you can just skip it and nothing is lost. That's how inconsequential most of the movie is.

They literally dragged out and padded the space chase long enough so Rey could get her storyline out of the way and still make it to Crait in time to save the day.
 

Deleted member 2809

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
25,478
It's hard to complain about those complaints when a good 60% of the movie could be taken out and the only difference it'd make is the movie would be 90 minutes long. Generally speaking, if Rey, Ben or Luke aren't in the scene you can just skip it and nothing is lost. That's how inconsequential most of the movie is.

They literally dragged out and padded the space chase long enough so Rey could get her storyline out of the way and still make it to Crait in time to save the day.
what
is
character
development

aka "lol the heroes failed WHATS THE POINT RJ IS A FRAUD"
 

greatgeek

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,812
It's hard to complain about those complaints when a good 60% of the movie could be taken out and the only difference it'd make is the movie would be 90 minutes long. Generally speaking, if Rey, Ben or Luke aren't in the scene you can just skip it and nothing is lost. That's how inconsequential most of the movie is.

They literally dragged out and padded the space chase long enough so Rey could get her storyline out of the way and still make it to Crait in time to save the day.
This only makes sense if by "nothing is lost" and inconsequential" you mean "I didn't care what was happening."
 

Deleted member 7051

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
14,254
Yeah that article is a complete joke. TLJ sets up 9 perfectly. So many interesting directions for it go in.

How does the First Krdsr function with two incompetent young guys who dont have a grand plan unlike Snoke or Palpatine?

What does Rey learn from those ancient Jedi texts she took? Does she train anyone?

Whats the time jump between 8 and 9? How much time had passed since TLJ? What is the current state of the galaxy?

How had the Resistance grown and changed nks that Luke was the spark to light and inspired people across the galaxy?

What is ghost Luke up to? Trolling Kylo? Talking with Rey?

If that's the best you've got for questions going into Episode IX then you're admitting there's nothing to go on at all.

Plus you're assuming a tonne of stuff, like Ben not having a grand plan, Luke being a ghost, there being a timeskip, etc etc even though headcanon is bad now. Remember, you're not allowed to go into these movies with expectations.

Or is this just you prepping yourself to post "Abrams ruined / retconned all the cool stuff Johnson set up for him!" threads that are pretty much inevitable?
 

Tomasoares

Member
Oct 28, 2017
4,535
I'll try to summarize all the problems people had with the film (although I don't agree with any of them, maybe except Canto Blight):

1 -> Rose was annoying and an unnecessary addiction, worse than Jar Jar Binks.
2 -> Rose last line was one of the worst lines of cinema history.
3 -> Leia shouldn't use the force.
4 -> Space Leia was ridiculous.
5 -> Luke drinking blue milk was ridiculous.
6 -> Angry and depressed Luke was disappointing.
7 -> The Luke vs Kylo Ren fight was disappointing.
8 -> Luke shouldn't be dead.
9 -> Rey being nobody doesn't make sense.
10 -> Canto Blight was prequel-level moment
11 -> Rey is still too strong.
12 -> Kylo Ren is a baby cry and doesn't deserve to be the final boss.
13 -> Snoke was killed and nobody knows who is he.
14 -> Holdo was an awful addiction.
15 -> Ackbar should've replaced Holdo.
16 -> Poe was a reckless leader who got away while killing many of his soldiers.
17 -> The hyperspace ram shouldn't happen. It makes everything in the previous films inconsistent.
18 -> The "chase" (although it wasn't a chase) didn't make any sense.
19 -> All the allied plans (Finn, Poe and Rey) leads to failure and therefore nothing happens.
20 -> Finn was disappointing in the movie.
21 -> Finn carrying Rosie to the abandoned base didn't make any sense.
22 -> Humour was handled poorly, Marvel-like.
23 -> Holdo shouldn't keep her plan to herself.
24 -> Rey didn't learn anything from Luke.
25 -> Phasma was wasted once again.
26 -> Hux was wasted once again.
27 -> BB8 way too overpowered KO'ing the guards in Canto Blight and controlling the FO machine.
28 -> Prank call in the beginning.
29 -> "The FIRST ORDER rules the galaxy..." in the beginning.
30 -> Nothing is explained about the state of the galaxy.
31 -> The film hasn't done anything to advance the storyline.
32 -> Old EU was much better than the current cannon.
33 -> Yoda shouldn't have appeared.
34 -> Yoda shouldn't have cast a fucking lightning storm.
35 -> Porgs were an unnecessary addiction.
36 -> Caretakers shouldn't live in Luke's island. He should've been alone.
37 -> Luke didn't gave up on Darth Vader, he gave up on Kylo Ren.
38 -> Del Toro's characters was wasted on.
39 -> Soundtrack was unremarkable.
40 -> The movie subverts expectations because it a cool thing to do.
41 -> It is just a recycling of old ideas (AT-AT's, death star cannon, salt planet x snow planet from ESB, etc)
42 -> Rey parent's being dead in the desert contradict's her vision on episode VII.
43 -> It feels disconnected from its predecessor.
44 -> I don't like a woman being the protagonist.
45 -> The way the force is handled in nothing like in the OT or PT.
46 -> Shirtless Kylo Ren.
47 -> Film's too long.
48 -> Where are the Knight's of Ren?
49 -> Yoda is nothing like the one in OT and PT
50 -> Rey should've allied with Ren.
51 -> It doesn't make sense as a second film of a trilogy
 

Visanideth

Banned
Oct 31, 2017
4,771
How does the First Krdsr function with two incompetent young guys who dont have a grand plan unlike Snoke or Palpatine?

That sounds like a killer idea for a serialized sit-com.



What does Rey learn from those ancient Jedi texts she took? Does she train anyone?

Feels more like the premise/antefact of Ep.X than something fitting for a third, final chapter.


Whats the time jump between 8 and 9? How much time had passed since TLJ? What is the current state of the galaxy?

More like a question than a suggestion, but kind of highlights the problem. There's no tension or urgency in what TLJ left us with. No real open threads aside from Resistance vs Space Nazis (weeeeeeeeeee).

I think what the hyperbolic article is going at is probably the idea that TLJ feels more like Ep 3 of a trilogy.

How had the Resistance grown and changed nks that Luke was the spark to light and inspired people across the galaxy?

By going back to the status quo of Space Partisans fighting Space Nazis, I fear, factually undoing whatever setting-shaking change that RJ's boldness could have achieve if he didn't get too scared at the end.


What is ghost Luke up to? Trolling Kylo? Talking with Rey?

And this is the second killer idea for a serialized sit-com. Like, a series of Youtube shorts.

Watch as Luke isn't present in Ep.IX at all.
 

Deleted member 5666

user requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
14,753
It's hard to complain about those complaints when a good 60% of the movie could be taken out and the only difference it'd make is the movie would be 90 minutes long. Generally speaking, if Rey, Ben or Luke aren't in the scene you can just skip it and nothing is lost. That's how inconsequential most of the movie is.

They literally dragged out and padded the space chase long enough so Rey could get her storyline out of the way and still make it to Crait in time to save the day.
Han and Leias romantic back and forth in ESB is inconsequential to Lukes journey using this logic. Character development isnt inconsequential.

Are you saying its inconsequential because their mission fails? Failure is just as important as success in a film. Listen to Yoda.
 

Deleted member 7051

User requested account closure
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Oct 25, 2017
14,254
This only makes sense if by "nothing is lost" and inconsequential" you mean "I didn't care what was happening."

While this is obviously bait, isn't it the movie's job to make me care? I didn't go into The Last Jedi wanting to hate it and unlike the folks here that refuse to admit there's anything wrong with the movie and are adamant anyone that dislikes it is a sexist, racist child, I have and have no problem praising the parts of the movie I actually like.

So again, is it my fault the movie only made me care about the scenes with Rey, Ben and Luke?
 

zoukka

Game Developer
Verified
Oct 28, 2017
2,361
It didn't meet the huge expectations in many aspects setup by Force Awakens, it had a lot of variety in its cast and didn't feature a superman Luke.

Also it was a middling movie like Force Awakens.
 

Doom

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,818
New Jersey
Lol this fucking movie came out like 8 months ago and people are still referring to Rose and Finn's adventure as the "B-plot".

Some seriously stupid motherfuckers live in this world.
 

Meia

Member
Oct 26, 2017
1,015
By going back to the status quo of Space Partisans fighting Space Nazis, I fear, factually undoing whatever setting-shaking change that RJ's boldness could have achieve if he didn't get too scared at the end.


This was the thing that probably annoyed me most. The idea of "light or dark, let's go for a third" was fucking great, until Kylo goes "But let's kill all of your friends first." The movie would have been amazing if, moving forward, you have both Rey and Kylo leading everything and then seeing where you go for a third movie. But no, as RLM said, then it wouldn't be Star Wars because the idea is too smart.


People don't want to watch a 2 hour movie where every character fails, and any thing encouraging excitement for a sequel being met with a wet fart. Throw in contradictory messages("Love is what will save all" as the big death beam is charging up behind them, somehow ramming a ship with another ship doesn't result in harm to either pilot, all this coming after an iconic scene in the movie where a character sacrifices herself to save everyone), and just pure nonsense(I have this plan to save us all, but I'm going to make it look like I'm doing absolutely nothing but watching us get picked off one by one just to cause tension because movie), and the movie is a god damn mess.



Lol this fucking movie came out like 8 months ago and people are still referring to Rose and Finn's adventure as the "B-plot".

Some seriously stupid motherfuckers live in this world.

Their misadventure was a b-plot in a movie with nothing but b-plots. Nothing they were trying to do worked, and worse didn't need to happen. It also tied a very neat character that was given some development in TFA and just basically kept him sidelined the whole movie.
 

Sho_Nuff82

Member
Nov 14, 2017
18,439
The new cast of rebels all being dead except for the incompetent ones with plot armor is a bit of a "we wrote ourselves into a corner" moment.

Finn's sacrifice being thwarted was cinematic blue balls.

Canto Bight was a waste of time and a logistical nightmare.

The fuel cell plot was plodding and logically inconsistent (since when does the empire care about losing a few TIE fighters?). The light speed attack looks awesome but raises the question why the rebels would ever need to do a bombing run on the Death Star or any major empire vessel that's considered a suicide run when they could just phase through it.

I actually liked most of the Luke/Rei/Ben stuff.
 

Deleted member 7051

User requested account closure
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Oct 25, 2017
14,254
Han and Leias romantic back and forth in ESB is inconsequential to Lukes journey using this logic. Character development isnt inconsequential.

Are you saying its inconsequential because their mission fails? Failure is just as important as success in a film. Listen to Yoda.

Who said anything about failure? Don't go assuming my reasoning just so you can cap it off with a condescending Yoda reference.

Since you brought up Empire, however, we'll use that as the perfect example of how not to make half the movie feel inconsequential.

Remember how Empire starts off with the Rebel base being found and attacked? How Han and Leia fucking book it to Cloud City for safety while evading the Empire and bounty hunters? How everything seems okay there until Lando betrays them to Vader? How Lando and Leia fight their way to the Falcon but fail to save Han?

I cared about what was happening on Cloud City. I worried about the Rebels after the attack on Hoth. When Luke got the vision about his friends I was fist-pumping because Luke was gonna show up and kick the crap out of Vader.

That is how you give two thirds of your main trio something to do that we as viewers will care about while Luke / Rey is off convincing a Jedi Master to train them.

The Last Jedi failed to make me care about Finn, Poe and the Resistance the way Empire made me care about Han, Leia and the Rebels and it has fuck all to do with success or failure.
 

greatgeek

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,812
While this is obviously bait, isn't it the movie's job to make me care? I didn't go into The Last Jedi wanting to hate it and unlike the folks here that refuse to admit there's anything wrong with the movie and are adamant anyone that dislikes it is a sexist, racist child, I have and have no problem praising the parts of the movie I actually like.

So again, is it my fault the movie only made me care about the scenes with Rey, Ben and Luke?
Eh, it's pretty subjective. Many of us did care about the other scenes.
My point, though, was that the those other story threads do serve plot, character development, or thematic purposes (as has been pointed out countless times in these discussions), and so you are wrong to suggest that they are actually pointless. No, you cannot just take them out to leave a 90 min. movie--it would be utterly incomprehensible.
 

Visanideth

Banned
Oct 31, 2017
4,771
People don't want to watch a 2 hour movie where every character fails, and any thing encouraging excitement for a sequel being met with a wet fart. Throw in contradictory messages("Love is what will save all" as the big death beam is charging up behind them, somehow ramming a ship with another ship doesn't result in harm to either pilot, all this coming after an iconic scene in the movie where a character sacrifices herself to save everyone), and just pure nonsense(I have this plan to save us all, but I'm going to make it look like I'm doing absolutely nothing but watching us get picked off one by one just to cause tension because movie), and the movie is a god damn mess.


But the message! THE MESSAGE! It was absolutely worth it making the plot move at a snail's pace for 45 minutes while every character turns into a detestable asshole to hammer home the idea that you really should respect women as leaders! Like everyone always did in Star Wars!

Bloody hell.
 

Siggy-P

Avenger
Mar 18, 2018
11,865
I admit I have seen precious little discussion from women about the movie to be honest.

My frame of reference being my sister and two girls in our "nerd group" (my wife hates SW) and they were bothered by it, to different levels. For the most part they were bothered by the fridging of Leia and spending most of the movie bonding with two female characters who die - practically and figuratively - in the last minutes of the movie. My sister observed how come next movie they're left with Rey and whatever can be done to salvage poor Rose after the movie turns her into a lovestruck teenager who reads too much bad poetry in the final minutes (not my words).

One girl said "just what we needed, misoginy in Star Wars!" when we discussed the movie afterward, which is what made me realize the issue. Before she pointed it out I was mostly focused on other, more nerdish things (that damn hyperspace jump!) and the "social commentary" of Holdo's character had pretty much left me unaffected.

That's actually super interesting to me. And I get what they mean. The film's very in your face about It but they feel it still doesn't live up to what it's patting itself on the back for. Like the older films rarely showed women but when they did characters weren't doing double takes or there wasn't plot points about everyone absurdly underestimating them like in TLJ. I can see that being noticable and kind of condescending to actual women fans.

Though I will say about the fridging that in the films defence nearly everyone dies.