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molnizzle

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
17,695
It's an opinion. I'm allowed to use guides if I feel like I'm not getting anywhere and the game does little to inform you of direction. You lose all sense of direction after being put in the Tower Cell after Seath. I was completely lost as to why I had been put into a tower cell after dying?
You're supposed to feel completely lost. That's... the point of that section. Using a guide completely ruins the effect.

If you just play games to "get through them" then Dark Souls probably isn't for you. Your opinion on its level design also loses most of its credibility if you've been using a guide to get around. Exploring aimlessly is half the point of the game. Feeling lost, helpless. It's like a 3D Metroidvania. With some of the best level design the medium has ever seen.

Why play at all if you're just gonna have your hand held? Makes no sense to me.
 
OP
OP
Much

Much

The Gif That Keeps on Giffing
Member
Feb 24, 2018
6,067
You're supposed to feel completely lost. That's... the point of that section. Using a guide completely ruins the effect.

If you just play games to "get through them" then Dark Souls probably isn't for you. Your opinion on its level design also loses most of its credibility if you've been using a guide to get around. Exploring aimlessly is half the point of the game. Feeling lost, helpless. It's like a 3D Metroidvania. With some of the best level design the medium has ever seen.

Why play at all if you're just gonna have your hand held? Makes no sense to me.

I played the majority of this game, Darks Souls 3 and Bloodborne without a guide. I will use a guide however if the game is unclear as to where to go, as Duke Archives, personally was. It is indeed magical to have exploration, but the first game is limited in encouraging exploration in the latter half of the game. Duke Archives has little to no areas for further exploration other than a twisting staircase.
 

Weiss

User requested ban
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
64,265
You're supposed to feel completely lost. That's... the point of that section. Using a guide completely ruins the effect.

If you just play games to "get through them" then Dark Souls probably isn't for you. Your opinion on its level design also loses most of its credibility if you've been using a guide to get around. Exploring aimlessly is half the point of the game. Feeling lost, helpless. It's like a 3D Metroidvania. With some of the best level design the medium has ever seen.

Why play at all if you're just gonna have your hand held? Makes no sense to me.

Oh, knock it off. It's just a goddamn video game.

These threads are always fun.

Someone doesn't like Popular Game? But I love Popular Game! What the fuck is this heresy!?
 

JohnnyMoses

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,658
Soon people will finally see Dark Souls 2 is the best Souls game.
tumblr_mh4gs3cjUo1qjt5m8o6_250.gif

Yes, or at least tied with Demon's.
 

molnizzle

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
17,695
I played the majority of this game, Darks Souls 3 and Bloodborne without a guide. I will use a guide however if the game is unclear as to where to go, as Duke Archives, personally was. It is indeed magical to have exploration, but the first game is limited in encouraging exploration in the latter half of the game. Duke Archives has little to no areas for further exploration other than a twisting staircase.
For most games I might agree. For Souls games though... "being unclear about where to go" is the entire point. That's the game.

I think you spoiled yourself playing the more watered down, inferior entries later on. None of the sequels have managed to recapture the magic of the original Dark Souls.

I also like Demon's for similar reasons, but the interconnected world of Dark 1 made it all the more magical.

Playing Dark Souls 1 completely blind was one of two defining gaming experiences of my adult life. The other being Breath of the Wild. Both games brought out feelings in me I hadn't felt since I was a young kid. True masterpieces.

Oh, knock it off. It's just a goddamn video game.
I can see how you might think that if you used a guide to get through it. That absolutely cheapens the experience.
 
OP
OP
Much

Much

The Gif That Keeps on Giffing
Member
Feb 24, 2018
6,067
For most games I migh agree. For Souls games though... "being unclear about where to go" is half the point. That's the game.

I think you spoiled yourself playing the more watered down, inferior entries later on. None of th sequels have managed to recapture the magic of th original Dark Souls.

I also like Demon's for similar reasons, but th I interconnected world of Dark 1 made it all the more magical.

Playing Dark Souls 1 completely blind was one of two defining gaming experiences of my adult life. The other being Breath of the Wild. Both games brought out feelings in me I hadn't felt since I was a young kid. True masterpieces.

You see, I think Dark Souls 3 and Bloodborne do literally everything better than Dark Souls 1. That's my opinion though, and you have yours.
 

Chettlar

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,604
It's an opinion. I'm allowed to use guides if I feel like I'm not getting anywhere and the game does little to inform you of direction. You lose all sense of direction after being put in the Tower Cell after Seath. I was completely lost as to why I had been put into a tower cell after dying?

I really think you'd be much more into the experience if you didn't use guides. Interestingly I find a lot of people who don't like dark souls, especially the second half, often use guides.

Yes you're allowed to, but why sabotage your experience?
 

Prophaniti

Member
Oct 28, 2017
2,028
I was super pumped for it when I preordered the remaster but after playing all the way through my thoughts are basically "meh." I am actually playing through again right this second because I really want that feeling I got playing 3 again. After 3 I played through 4 more times. With Bloodborne it was even more than that. Hopefully it'll click with me this time.

Soon people will finally see Dark Souls 2 is the best Souls game.
tumblr_mh4gs3cjUo1qjt5m8o6_250.gif
Don't do this.
 

Creamium

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,690
Belgium
I'm still waiting for someone to tell me which bosses "can't be beaten without Pyromancy".

Hah have people said that? A pyro build can be fun but it's just one of the many options to play the game.

Still think that the DkS I has some of the best level design overall. If you didn't know what was coming, the descent into The Depths, then Blighttown and Quelaag's domain made you feel like you'd never see the sun again and it was an incredible feeling when you finally did. Demon Ruins/Lost Izalith were a shame but that's a small blemish compared to all the other iconic areas. Even post Anor Londo there's still TotG and Duke's Archives. I had that 3D map viewer and loved panning around seeing how everything connected.
 

molnizzle

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
17,695
I really think you'd be much more into the experience if you didn't use guides. Interestingly I find a lot of people who don't like dark souls, especially the second half, often use guides.

Yes you're allowed to, but why sabotage your experience?
Yeah.

The "a ha!" moments you get after being lost for hours are why people hold these games in such high regard (similar to BotW). If you use a guide, you're not having those moments. You're not experiencing the thing that makes the series so beloved.
 
OP
OP
Much

Much

The Gif That Keeps on Giffing
Member
Feb 24, 2018
6,067
I really think you'd be much more into the experience if you didn't use guides. Interestingly I find a lot of people who don't like dark souls, especially the second half, often use guides.

Yes you're allowed to, but why sabotage your experience?

I only use it if I'm truly lost, not sitting with my laptop open religiously while playing it. If I make no progress after a long period and am clueless on where to go, I will have to use a guide to point me in the right direction. Don't think it affects the experience for me at all.
 
OP
OP
Much

Much

The Gif That Keeps on Giffing
Member
Feb 24, 2018
6,067
Yeah.

The "a ha!" moments you get after being lost for hours are why people hold these games in such high regard (similar to BotW). If you use a guide, you're not having those moments. You're not experiencing the thing that makes the series so beloved.

It's the boss fights that I cherish about these games. You honestly expect me to have time to be in an area for hours just for a momentary 'a ha' moment that lasts a couple seconds? Come on..
 

entremet

You wouldn't toast a NES cartridge
Member
Oct 26, 2017
59,940
One of the things I love about the original Dark Souls is the fact that you cannot warp until mid-game. Bloodborne and DS3, two amazing games and much more refined than the original Dark Souls. But that wide open design is rather special.
 

SofNascimento

cursed
Member
Oct 28, 2017
21,258
SĂŁo Paulo - Brazil
"Great level design" in Dark Souls = you take an elevator back to where you started (but only in some places).

I think Dark Souls suffers from people simply getting used to its flaws. And then forgetting that it doesn't change the fact they are flaws, or that the game has weak spots.
 

Chettlar

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,604
It's the boss fights that I cherish about these games. You honestly expect me to have time to be in an area for hours just for a momentary 'a ha' moment that lasts a couple seconds? Come on..

I just think other people value different things than you do about these games. I don't think that makes them poorly designed.

I love boss fights but I also love being immersed in the world. I love the whole package. I know some people would just love a boss rush game, but I probably wouldn't enjoy that at all.

A lot of us love the exploration. It's one of the top things people mention when they say why they love the souls games.

Personally Dark Souls was by far my favorite exploration experience in the series.
 

molnizzle

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
17,695
I only use it if I'm truly lost, not sitting with my laptop open religiously while playing it. If I make no progress after a long period and am clueless on where to go, I will have to use a guide to point me in the right direction. Don't think it affects the experience for me at all.
It does, by robbing you of the euphoria you feel once you finally figure it out on your own. And each time you do, it makes the next time ever so slightly easier, since you have a better idea of how to approach it. You feel a sense of growth as a player. Like you're "leveling up" as a video game player, if that makes sense. If you just have it explained to you whenever you get stuck, you ruin that feeling.

It's the boss fights that I cherish about these games. You honestly expect me to have time to be in an area for hours just for a momentary 'a ha' moment that lasts a couple seconds? Come on..
...yeah. That's the game. It's not a quick one. I think I had about 90 hours played when I beat the final boss for the first time. Wouldn't trade that time for anything.
 

MasterCheeze

Member
Oct 29, 2017
183
I never ended up finishing the first Dark Souls when it came out, but I've getting at the remaster after playing DS2 (as well as Scholars of the First Sin), DS3, and Bloodborne. There's a couple things introduced in the later games that I miss (mainly being able to effectively use a second weapon in your off-hand), but I've still been having a good time. It seems each game might have a couple of gameplay or level issues, but for the most part I'm a fan of each entry despite any minor complaints I might have.
 

Prophaniti

Member
Oct 28, 2017
2,028
It does, by robbing you of the euphoria you feel once you finally figure it out on your own. And each time you do, it makes the next time ever so slightly easier, since you have a better idea of how to approach it. You feel a sense of growth as a player. Like you're "leveling up" as a video game player, if that makes sense. If you just have it explained to you whenever you get stuck, you ruin that feeling.


...yeah. That's the game. It's not a quick one. I think I had about 90 hours played when I beat the final boss for the first time. Wouldn't trade that time for anything.
Really? I beat it in 30. I did the dlc also. Did I miss a ton of optional stuff??? Oh I didn't do much PvP
 

Kalik

Banned
Nov 1, 2017
4,523
the fact that you can easily get lost or not know where to go is one of the best parts about the game and shows how amazing the level design is...otherwise it would be another linear boring game design...it's too bad they dumbed things down considerably in the later games to appeal to a wider audience
 

DealWithIt

Member
Oct 28, 2017
2,669
Dark Souls is a flawed masterpiece. It's not perfect but there's nothing like it and it will live forever, at least in my opinion. Lost Izalith is a pretty bad area, but I don't feel that way about Tomb of the Giants at all. Its actually pretty cool. The game under-telegraphs the need for light in the tomb, but only slightly.

I find the controls to be very compelling as well, personally.

It has rough edges, but its an old game that lacked a lot of the polish and knowhow that developed in the industry subsequent to its publication. in fact, I daresay that lot of the industry developments that would smooth out DS1's design happened *as a result* of DS1's influence.
 
Nov 4, 2017
7,348
Even with its faults (control jank, Demon Ruins being a lazy copy-paste job, cheesy bullshit deaths like in Bed of Chaos or the Archer Knights in Another Londo), I still think DS is the GotG for last gen. Despite the problems, I thoroughly enjoyed the game and recognise it for what it is; the stepping stone we needed to get to Bloodborne (the GotG for this gen, maybe even the GOAT).
 

Onebadlion

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,188
I disagree that the second half of the game is bad. It's really only the Crystal Cave, Lost Izalith and the Demon Ruins that are really shit. New Londo and the Archives are both up there with the best areas in the game for me, and TOTG has a fun gimmick.

My biggest issue playing the remaster is the way enemy attack's clip through walls. In a game that's supposed to be hard but fair, things like that are bullshit. I forgot how bad it was, and it's cost me a couple of really frustrating deaths.

I think the biggest advantage Dark Souls has over the sequels is that it has a coherent narrative that makes you want to explore, and uncover the secrets of the world and characters you meet and hear about. I found that missing from the other games, and it meant I was less sure of my characters motivation. Because the storytelling was far less engaging, DS2 & 3 really felt like they were missing an important ingredient to the magic that Dark Souls has.
 

Weltall Zero

Game Developer
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
19,343
Madrid
"Dark Souls is bad after Anor Londo" is a joke.

After Anor Londo, the main areas to complete (not including Kiln) are:

Duke's Archives/Crystal Caves
New Londo Ruins
Catacombs/Tomb of the Giants
Demon Ruins/Lost Izalith

Only Lost Izalith is truly bad out of all of those areas, even Demon Ruins isn't terrible (seeing as how tiny it is).

New Londo Ruins is one of the best areas in all of Soulsborne and ends with a fantastic boss and finding the shortcut to the Valley of the Drakes is a fantastic moment. The Duke's Archives is also an example of great level design, with the moving staircases and almost being puzzle like. Getting lost for 45 minutes is crazy. The whole sequence from breaking out of the jail to exploring the archives is fantastic. The Crystal Caves are short, but they also require some amount of brainpower to navigate. The game doesn't hold your hand. Catacombs/Tomb of the Giants are also solid areas, with the former teaching you about how to kill the summoners and the latter being an example of how to do darkness properly in level design.

I'm sorry you feel like the level design is garbage OP, but Dark Souls 1 is still one of the best examples of level design in video games. The only thing that really doesn't hold up in Dark Souls 1 are the easy bosses, the lock-on rolling, Izalith, and the backstab-laden PvP.

Fully agreed on all accounts, Catacombs are great, and New Londo and Archives are downright amazing. Hell, I don't even hate Izalith that much. Tomb of Giants is memorable and so terrifying.
 

DukeBlue

Banned
Nov 6, 2017
1,502
I just can't wrap my head around how somebody could say DS1 has bad level design overall. Sure, LI is trash, but I'm sure if the staff at From werent at a deadline it would have been okay, but besides that sore spot, everything is great.

Jesus, and then there is rhe DLC..
 

Powdered Egg

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
17,070
I can't fathom how FROM made a perfect run up to Anor Lando... and the game eventually includes an area like Lost Izalith. This would be like slapping Braveheart Party onto Illmatic. I mean the game was a well deserved success sales and critic wise but I wonder if developers were aware while making the game that the quality dipped hard after Anor.
 

Deleted member 37739

User requested account closure
Banned
Jan 8, 2018
908
Remastered was my first time playing through DS1, having completed DS2, played two thirds through DS3 and platinumed Bloodborne. I can say it's among the best in the series and despite having some obvious signs of age, it's an incredible game. I even kinda love The Demon Ruins, for just being so obviously broken and incomplete that it's just amusing.

It also has the most straightforward and unambiguous story that makes reasonable sense without reading 300 item descriptions and consulting Fextralife - after the general obtusity of latter games, it was actually rather a breath of fresh air.
 

Weltall Zero

Game Developer
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
19,343
Madrid
I believe people say the second half of Dark Souls is bad because those areas are not interconnected in the way the first half of the game is.

I think it's a combination of parroting memes, some areas actually being weak, and indeed the reduced interconnectivity (made worse by giving you access to teleporting, which kind of obviates the need anyway). But then, all of BB and DS3 are like that (less interconnectivity, with more branches than loops, teleporting from the start) and people have no issues with them, so what do I know.
 

Ceadeus

Banned
Jan 11, 2018
600
The game came out after demon souls. Nobody at this time were awaiting Ă  grand aaa game. It just became popular and now people expect perfection about this ip, should not be this way.
 

Xiaomi

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,237
For all the game's flaws, and there are several big ones, I just can't get behind the idea that the movement and level design are bad. The movement feels good and responsive, even though it's heavy. Jumping is wonky sometimes, sure, but the game isn't really designed around platforming (except the one terrible boss). Blocking, parrying, and swinging a weapon are all very fast and precise. It's like, I hate the guns in Bloodborne. I think they suck butt and are too slow. But I'm not going to hold that against the game because some people like them for legit reasons, even if they're not to my taste, and it all comes down to my personal preference for how I play the game.

The level design is some of the best in all of soulsborne. Every game has a shit level or two (Izalith, Black Gulch, Yahar'Gul, etc.) but they are shit because they're unsatisfying and unfun, not because they're tricky and punishing like Blighttown or Tomb of Giants.
 

Falconbox

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
4,600
Buffalo, NY
Playing through Dark Souls Remastered right now, nearing the end. I originally played through Dark Souls 3 and then Bloodborne, and with the remaster out, I thought I'd give this a spin since I enjoyed the other two.

This isn't necessarily a thread to shit on Dark Souls 1, but by god, this has aged poorly. The level design is VERY poor after Anor Londo and is by no means complimented by the stiff controls of the character. The level design is further hampered when you take damage from a two feet fall. Moreover, the level design is misleading and in no way as clear as the following games. I spent nearly 45 minutes in the Duke Archives trying to find my way, and the fact that you have videos online with tens of thousands of views on how to reach a bonfire or next location is truly telling of how poor the level design is.

As for combat, it's not all bad. It can be somewhat fun if it plays in your favour and you near the end with stronger weapons, but half the time I feel as though I've been crippled tremendously. Let's use Seath the Scaleless for instance. The boss room is rather large, but so is the boss as he fills the majority of the room. Now, try to move around this boss who fills the majority of the room and also dodge his attacks which fill the majority of the room. It's hard to do so when player movement is so damn stiff. I really don't want to mention the part of Dark Souls where, upon dying to a curse, you are permanently at half health until you cure yourself with a purging stone, that which costs souls (you just lost these in a boss room).

This may seem like a rant thread, and maybe it is. But I feel like this game is put on a pedestal, when in fact it really is flawed and has aged poorly compared to its successive games. I still enjoyed this game, but man, this was the worst experience in the Souls series so far, and I'm put off from playing Dark Souls 2 now. :(

EDIT: Oh yeah, worst of all: the stopping to sip some orange juice and getting pinwheeled the fuck out of enemies.. -_-

TL;DR:

This is how I feel:
"I wouldn't say the level design is poor, but I wasn't blown away either even as a huge fan of the series, it was certainly above average though. Compared to other modern games, it looks masterclass because of just how brainless most games were back then, and generally still are from the mainstream. Biggest problem is the game straight up sucks after Anor Londo and it feels worse to play in general, especially with that archaic 4 way movement.

The clam enemies RIGHT BEFORE SEATHE can be farmed for purging stones.

That's why they were put there.
 

Suicide King

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,018
The level design only gets worse after Anor Londo because it had to have fast travel. The entire first half is designed around the idea of having the Firelink Shrine as an organic hub, and then throws that concept away.

Still, the worst parts of level design in the first Dark Souls is still miles above most RPGs I usually play. It's amazing because it feels like a perfect 3D metroidvania. It's a very well thought out game where every enemy position and area were designed to make you learn how to play. I love it.
 

emb

Member
Oct 28, 2017
642
Yeah, I can't agree on the level design.

The curse mechanic though? Right there with ya. I don't remember exactly what went into getting the healing item... but I remember feeling terrified of having to go find another one. I think there's just the sense that, with 1/4 health, I might not be able to fix things. And I get that it's supposed to be scary, and to offer a punishment that's worse than just death. I'm all for hard games and whatever, but that bit was too much for me, I'm not a fan.
 

low-G

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,144
Even Blighttown is an incredibly great design. Like better than 99.999% of game level designs.
 

KCsoLucky

Member
Oct 29, 2017
1,585
It does, by robbing you of the euphoria you feel once you finally figure it out on your own. And each time you do, it makes the next time ever so slightly easier, since you have a better idea of how to approach it. You feel a sense of growth as a player. Like you're "leveling up" as a video game player, if that makes sense. If you just have it explained to you whenever you get stuck, you ruin that feeling.


...yeah. That's the game. It's not a quick one. I think I had about 90 hours played when I beat the final boss for the first time. Wouldn't trade that time for anything.

One of the issues I take with Souls fans is projecting that sense of euphoria on others, be it from figuring out an area or killing a boss solo. Not everyone gets that or games for that, so it's not really fair to assume that the payoff for a particular person is worth the frustration. I know plenty who will just give up on a game after 15 minutes of being stuck, and that's okay, we all have different personalities.

I kinda take issue with the blanket "everything after Anor Londo is poor", because outside of Lost Izalith, I kinda disagree. The individual areas(New Londo, Duke's, Catacombs) are as good as the early game ones, they just lose the interconnectivity which really hurts their overall appeal IMO. Another thing is most secrets are pretty cut and dry to find, much moreso than early on.....like oh my I wonder if this walkway next to the fog door leads to anything - Tomb of Giants is a standout in this regard and would be even with lights on. There are also some super cheap enemies and enemy placements, especially ghosts and exploding skulls(Sen's, Blighttown and The Depths also had some shit placement). Also, the worst experience in the game is accidentally getting to Ash Lake pre-LV, which I accidentally did on original release.

I wholeheartedly agree on bosses not holding up. I don't think I died to any yet, besides Stray Demon when my controller died. I only have Bed, Kalameet, Artorias and Manus left(I know, some of the hardest ones lol).
 

Deleted member 4044

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,121
I just replayed Dark Souls with the Remastered version and can't believe how many cool secrets are in the game - whether its the optional areas, the weapons you get from cutting off tails of various creatures, the way you can get certain NPC vendors to appear, etc. I remember Duke's Archives being way longer than it actually was - it's really just a few rooms before the boss fake-out, then a linear prison and about three rooms after it. The Castle from Bloodborne is much, much bigger and more confusing to me.

I really can't stand Tomb of the Giants, though. It's not a fun area with the darkness. I liked Demon Ruins and Lost Izalith a lot more this time around - felt like they were just throwing the kitchen sink at you, and it has quest resolutions for Solaire and Siegmeyer as well.
 

Deleted member 18347

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
2,572
I think this could be a case where a combination of playing more mechanically/technically refined games beforehand (DS3 and BB) as well as being exposed to the negative, overblown internet talk about some particular flaws is what lead to your extreme disappointment.

You can contain those flaws and look at the bigger picture, have a higher appreciation for the things the game excels at. Level design as a whole is above and beyond most games generally, and Souls especially. Don't let comments and echo chambers on a couple of mediocre levels influence your opinion of the entire game.

But yeah... combat-wise, playing DS1 for the first time after BB and DS3 can be a bit jarring. I can see that.

the fact that you have videos online with tens of thousands of views on how to reach a bonfire or next location is truly telling of how poor the level design is
What kind of deduction is this?

Braid, one of the best 2D puzzle games out there, where every puzzle is well crafted, has over 0.5mil views for puzzle solutions/level walkthroughs on yt. And that's a puzzle game, where watching the solution absolutely defeats the whole purpose of it. Based on your criteria, it is a shit title with shit puzzle design.

If you went through Bloodborne guide-free, then you shouldn't really have a problem here. Sure, DS1 is more complex, but follows the same principle. It's more focused on exploration and experimentation more so than any of the other Soulsborne titles. If this aspect of the game is frustrating you too much then I can see why you'd believe the level design to be poor.
 

Zoid

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,335
You're right to say that there is a steep drop in quality after Anor Londo. But I think the rest of your critiques is due to the fact that you played DS3 and BB first. And I'm not sure how you got so lost in the Duke's Archives, it's probably the most straight forward of the post Anor Londo areas and the only one I would say doesn't suck.

Your comment about videos showing the way to the next bonfire having tens of thousands of views is dumb. Every game has countless videos guiding players to do the easiest most mundane things and they all have incredibly high view counts. That in no way proves the game has bad level design.
 

werezompire

Zeboyd Games
Verified
Oct 26, 2017
11,310
You see, I think Dark Souls 3 and Bloodborne do literally everything better than Dark Souls 1. That's my opinion though, and you have yours.

Bloodborne is really good and was the first game that felt like a worthy Dark Souls sequel to me. With that said, it's a shorter & more linear game with drastically less build options than any of the other Souls games (and what builds it does have lack variety) which really hurts its replayability.

Dark Souls 3 just never clicked for me. Coming after Bloodborne, it felt like a step down with combat, while still not having the size of Dark Souls 2 or the fun interconnected design of Dark Souls 1. And I get that they wanted to make weapons more interesting, but ditching the spell system from Dark Souls 1 & 2 with a generic MP system was a big downgrade in how fun & interesting magic was. It also felt like they ramped up the combat difficulty a lot faster than the other games like they assumed anyone playing Dark Souls 3 had already played the previous games.

One thing that I think gets lost now is just how well designed Dark Souls 1 was for replayability. There are all these different weapons & spells, each of which lends itself to different playstyles which encourages replayability, but also, there are so many secrets scattered throughout the game's levels that when you do go back to replay with a different build, there's a good chance you'll find brand new secrets that you missed the last time, including entirely optional areas. Throw in the fact that certain one-time enemies have a chance of dropping special equipment and different playthroughs can feel very different.

In contrast, the later games tended to be more linear, but also the later games came out at a much more rapid rate. There was nearly a 2.5 year gap between Dark Souls 1 & 2, but then these games came out on a year schedule (2014 - Dark Souls 2, 2015 - Bloodborne, 2016 - Dark Souls 3) so there was less incentive to really dig into each one since even the shorter Souls-style games are fairly long.
 
Last edited:

cakely

Member
Oct 27, 2017
13,149
Chicago
Dark Souls is "looked upon fondly" because it's widely considered to be a great game.

If you feel that way, that's OK, but be aware that you hold a minority opinion.
 

Revolsin

Usage of alt-account.
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
4,373
Wish we had an actually solid definition of what 'level design' consisted of, because this thread's gone through a good 100 different descriptors of it at this point. OP's variation especially is a little egregious to the point that I'm actually lost on what their definition even is.

Also would be good if people actually named these objective "flaws" that people apparently aren't seeing, because I'm just seeing a whole lot of fluff here regarding that.
 

Meia

Member
Oct 26, 2017
1,015
Even ignoring the rant about level design, it was the only game in the series I feel that you could have really strong builds of all different types. The series(including Bloodborne) didn't have a good magic system since imo. Stacking stats, good caster items, and spells made the game play very different. It's the only one I really felt comfortable running through with like 4 or 5 vastly different builds.


Level design the game is great though. WIth how interconnected everything is, if you have a least favorite part in the game(blighttown/lost izalith) chances are there's a way you can skip the whole damn thing to begin with if you explore enough. I hadn't gotten the complaints about low framerate blighttown for a bit simply because I had always skipped it apparently.


EDIT: And it was probably mentioned already, but you don't have to fight every single enemy. In terms of the seath runback, don't think I ever killed the clams once, for example(though they're the best things to farm for crafting materials, I use the lake for those though).