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Which one did the better when it comes to showing racial allegory through the use of animals?

  • Zootopia

    Votes: 135 48.6%
  • Beastars

    Votes: 143 51.4%

  • Total voters
    278

TheGamingNewsGuy

One Winged Slayer
Member
Nov 5, 2017
31,453
Both Zootopia (The Disney Movie) and Beastars (The Manga/Anime) have been often compared to in the past due to similar themes and their worlds being very similar in their approaches to animal kind as well as the relationship between preadtors and prey being used as allegory for racism/racist acts but which show did a better approach when it comes to discussing and tackling those issues through the use of animals and animal metaphor? I would like to know pepole's thoughts and opinions on this topic.
 

Sebalt

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,206
The right answer is Blacksad.

More seriously, still didn't read Beastars but from what I saw, it seems to be better than Zootopia in that regard.
 

Joni

Member
Oct 27, 2017
19,508
Zootopia messes up it allegory by letting the carnivores actually turn wild.
 

Sanka

Banned
Feb 17, 2019
5,778
Beastars completely breaks down the moment race comes into it. It tries to make the connection but the implications are awful. I feel like the gender allegory works way better.

Zootopia did race better and even then it wasn't good. Beastars just goes off the rails at some point where it's really just its own thing. So there are no true winners here.
 

Zombine

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,231
16361.jpg
 

Fliesen

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,253
Though they didn't show it, they did say that...

... a bunny could "go savage" as a result of the flower or whatever it was that was causing the carnivores to go savage, too. Basically that they are all the same.
This. The carnivores didn't turn feral but were drugged.
 

The Adder

Member
Oct 25, 2017
18,087
Beastars isn't a racial allegory. It has some elements of racism in it, but it's not actually about racism. It's a story about dumb teenagers figuring themselves out and the impact all kinds of societal pressures have on that.
 

Joni

Member
Oct 27, 2017
19,508
Though they didn't show it, they did say that...

... a bunny could "go savage" as a result of the flower or whatever it was that was causing the carnivores to go savage, too. Basically that they are all the same.

But the movie never plays into that point. It is mentionned offhand for Judy to solve the case.

Personally, I saw that plot point to be reminiscent of the CIA and their associations with drug trafficking during the 80's and 90's.

This. The carnivores didn't turn feral but were drugged.

It plays into the racial 'black men can easily go wild' again, and the exaggerated treatment of drug cases in black men. 'They pretend to be nice, but drugs turn them back into superpredators'. It literally confirms the crackdown on cocaine use specifically in black communities going on in the 90s, and shows that that treatment was right... That is the takeaway from how they set-up the story.
 

TheMango55

Banned
Nov 1, 2017
5,788
Zootopia works really well when you realize that they aren't trying to do a one to one allegory with earth races.

herbivores are not "white people" and carnivores aren't "PoCs"
 

Nordicus

Member
Oct 29, 2017
1,496
Finland
But the movie never plays into that point. It is mentionned offhand for Judy to solve the case.

It plays into the racial 'black men can easily go wild' again, and the exaggerated treatment of drug cases in black men. 'They pretend to be nice, but drugs turn them back into superpredators'. It literally confirms the crackdown on cocaine use specifically in black communities going on in the 90s, and shows that that treatment was right... That is the takeaway from how they set-up the story.
The hell is this?

When this massive clue is given to Judy that allows her to turn this case around, I can't see it as anything else than effect on prey and predators is exactly the same. Just that when Uncle Terry ate a raw Nighthowler, got violent for a while and bit Judy's mother, there isn't ancient history of rabbits eating other animals, so they don't immediately jump to "He went savage!"

After the revelation, there's nothing implying animals are actually different in how Nighthowler affects them, there's only racist sentiment weaponized against predators.

That you are interpreting this as "predators still go wild tho", means that you are still buying the villain's side of the story. You're essentially buying the "that white shooter was just a nice quiet boy" versus "that non-white shooter was a vile extremist"

Edit: Furthermore, when Judy's mother's account on effects of nighthowler apparently don't matter, we end up in situation

"This anecdote came with a massive revelation that ties all the mystery together, BUT IT WAS TOTALLY INCORRECT THO"

How does anyone write a story like that?
 
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Illusion

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
8,407
Man... I'm going to have to watch Beastars aren't I? Is it the breakout anime for this season?

All I've been watching is Smile on the Runway.
 

Renna Hazel

Member
Oct 27, 2017
11,557
But the movie never plays into that point. It is mentionned offhand for Judy to solve the case.





It plays into the racial 'black men can easily go wild' again, and the exaggerated treatment of drug cases in black men. 'They pretend to be nice, but drugs turn them back into superpredators'. It literally confirms the crackdown on cocaine use specifically in black communities going on in the 90s, and shows that that treatment was right... That is the takeaway from how they set-up the story.
Zootopia does not literally confirm anything in the real world. That's also not the take away I had from the movie either. The drug would make anyone in the Zootopia world go wild, but everyone ignored that and became a racist. That viewpoint was looked down on by the end of the movie. The take away was that they're all the same in the end.
 

Deleted member 10726

user requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
2,674
ResetERA
Legoshi gets a criminal record primarily because he's a carnivore, cops constantly look at him weird and even when he's chasing a most wanted serial killer, the cops rather opt to stop him simply for how he looks.

Now that said, it's Zootopia. Beastars definitely has stuff like segregation, stereotyping and discrimation, but Paru Itagaki isn't 100% clear on which way this is meant to be taken sometimes. Sometimes Beastars has clear paralells to how racism works in the real world and does so really well, but other times the whole carnivore/herbivore stuff would be downright offensive if taken as an allegory to real world racism.

edit: So to clarify, the only reason Zootopia still does it better is because it simply delves into the whole carnivore/hybrid thing less. Both are horrible as racial allegories, but of course the one which is more distant from it is automatically going to be the worse one.
 
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I gave it to Zootopia. It's a bit cleaner and clearer by keeping things relatively simple.

In either case though I think expecting metaphors to map 1:1 with what they're referencing is a mistake. That limits storytelling flexibility and can make things boring and overly didactic.
 

Naijaboy

The Fallen
Mar 13, 2018
15,250
Zootopia works really well when you realize that they aren't trying to do a one to one allegory with earth races.

herbivores are not "white people" and carnivores aren't "PoCs"
This. it does it's own set of race dynamics outside that doesn't fit any we see here, yet can be relatable to that in many ways.
 

Deleted member 283

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
3,288
But the movie never plays into that point. It is mentionned offhand for Judy to solve the case.





It plays into the racial 'black men can easily go wild' again, and the exaggerated treatment of drug cases in black men. 'They pretend to be nice, but drugs turn them back into superpredators'. It literally confirms the crackdown on cocaine use specifically in black communities going on in the 90s, and shows that that treatment was right... That is the takeaway from how they set-up the story.
It totally comes into play. Like, the whole point is that it would affect herbivores exactly the same way but it's on purpose only used on carnivores by the movie's villain because she wants to turn public sentiment against carnivores. That it's something that will turn anyone, herbivore or carnivore feral, but was specifically used to make it seem like a feral-only problem.

Like, that's directly connected to the plot. And the fact that Judy's able to figure out what's happening by how, at that point in the film, something seemingly unrelated affects not carnivores but herbvores (why care about her dad's story, what's that have to do with the carnivores at all, unless indeed it's exactly the same thing).

Like, the entire villain's plot was to drug up the carnivores to get the herbivores to think there's something different about them when there isn't. C'mon.

That you're just playing into that, completely ignoring the villain and her plot and going "no, no, there is something different about the carnivores" is bizarre to me.
 

Dwebble

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
9,623
Both try and draw specific parallels which track horribly when you follow them to their logical conclusion, and they both would benefit from taking a much lighter touch.
 

marimo

Member
Oct 25, 2017
612
I don't think either one works as a 1:1 racism metaphor but I don't think they're meant to be anyway. Zootopia has more to say about racism, being a product of American culture in the 2010s, but even still it's not 1:1 and there are also elements of classism and sexism in play there. Beastars seems to me like it's not commenting on race so much as gender and sexuality, class, and also the pressures of social conformity. Which makes sense, being a product of Japanese culture where racism is not at the forefront of social consciousness the way it is in America. Having said that, I have only watched the anime of Beastars so I don't know if the manga is much different in that regard.
 
Last edited:
Nov 17, 2017
12,864
I feel like it's impossible to do a good race allegory with animals. Animals are inherently different in ways that humans are not. Like the difference between a lion and a bunny are so vast it's not surprising there might be some bias between them.

In Zootopia's world, predators apparently used to eat prey so the prey have a pretty good reason to be wary of predators. Even just the use of the words predator and prey shows a stark difference not seen in humans. I feel like no matter how you tackle it, a race allegory with animals is going to show cracks somewhere. Makes more sense to use animals as an allegory for class.
 

Nepenthe

When the music hits, you feel no pain.
Administrator
Oct 25, 2017
20,676
Zootopia is not just about racism. It is about intersectionality.

Almost every species in the film to some degree is burdened with stereotypes- both regarding them and about other animals. The stereotypes may be benign and subtle (Nagi), or they may be overt (Nick). Regardless, it presents a society where its individuals have clearly been colored by historical context and continuing sociopolitical trends, which inform the way they act as individuals and toward one another.

It is a mistake to look at Zootopia as an allegory for white and black race relations, although there are elements of the black experience blatantly in the narrative. It is instead more about how all the different -isms of a fictional society can react to one another.

It is, honestly, the only animated film that tries its hand at this, and its why I consider it without equal in the new Renaissance.
 
Oct 25, 2017
5,846
If zootopia is supposed to be primarily a racial allegory, it's a terrible one, given the predator/prey dichotomy as presented, and more importantly the film presents us with the argument that the vast majority of stereotypes are absolutely accurate.
 

nekkid

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
21,823
Zootopia is a movie about the differences between groups of people (prey/predators, size, sexuality, gender) and the contortions of a society trying to be accepting of everybody. That is the only real parallel with the real world and is drawn at a much higher level, rather than in the weeds of which species in the movie relates to which ethnicity irl.

For example Judy, a prey species gets called "cute" which is described with negative connotations, so things in that world clearly go all ways and isn't somehow predators = PoC.

It's only real failure is making it more obvious it isn't about white and black, but it's not really their job to cater for people who can't see that, I guess.
 

Jakenbakin

Member
Jun 17, 2018
11,795
I mean I can answer this in like a couple weeks when the second of these actually comes out in English
 

ibyea

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,163
Zootopia works really well when you realize that they aren't trying to do a one to one allegory with earth races.

herbivores are not "white people" and carnivores aren't "PoCs"
This.

Also, you are buying into the villain's narrative if you buy into the predator/prey dichotomy because it is just as arbitrary a category. Which is why I think the movie works.
 

Cipherr

Member
Oct 26, 2017
13,422
Personally, I saw that plot point to be reminiscent of the CIA and their associations with drug trafficking during the 80's and 90's.


Cocaine and the "Flower" in Zootopia? Oh hell yeah no way that was an accident.

It plays into the racial 'black men can easily go wild' again, and the exaggerated treatment of drug cases in black men. 'They pretend to be nice, but drugs turn them back into superpredators'. It literally confirms the crackdown on cocaine use specifically in black communities going on in the 90s, and shows that that treatment was right... That is the takeaway from how they set-up the story.

Man thats not the takeaway at ALL.. I have no idea how you got "the treatment was right" out of that. If anything zootopia was a bit heavy handed in delivering the opposite message.

I maybe watched 15 mins of Zootopia, said "this was written by white folks huh?" and left the room.


Your loss on that one. It didn't lean into the cliche bullshit at all. It actually made a genuine effort despite lulling you into thinking it was gonna be some lazy 90s era sappy nonsense. I think this is part of the reason it kept charting at the box office for so long. People were surprised when they gave it a chance.
 
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Powdered Egg

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
17,070
Cocaine and the "Flower" in Zootopia? Oh hell yeah no way that was an accident.

Man thats not the takeaway at ALL.. I have no idea how you got "the treatment was right" out of that. If anything zootopia was a bit heavy handed in delivering the opposite message.

Your loss on that one. It didn't lean into the cliche bullshit at all. It actually made a genuine effort despite lulling you into thinking it was gonna be some lazy 90s era sappy nonsense. I think this is part of the reason it kept charting at the box office for so long. People were surprised when they gave it a chance.
I'll see more of it eventually. I just watch random chunks of whatever movie my kids watch.
 

ScoobsJoestar

Member
May 30, 2019
4,071
Beastars doesn't go for a racial thing so much as a "place in society" thing from what I remember but I could be wrong
 

Heromanz

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
20,202
Zootopia works really well when you realize that they aren't trying to do a one to one allegory with earth races.

herbivores are not "white people" and carnivores aren't "PoCs"
but they are they're made by white Americans main view of racism is American racism. and even without that it really doesn't because using prey versus predator their relationship for a race allegory really doesn't work
 

wandering

flâneur
Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
2,136
Using animal species as analogues of race has always kind of disturbed me, personally.
 

Deleted member 6730

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
11,526
Zootopia is not just about racism. It is about intersectionality.

Almost every species in the film to some degree is burdened with stereotypes- both regarding them and about other animals. The stereotypes may be benign and subtle (Nagi), or they may be overt (Nick). Regardless, it presents a society where its individuals have clearly been colored by historical context and continuing sociopolitical trends, which inform the way they act as individuals and toward one another.

It is a mistake to look at Zootopia as an allegory for white and black race relations, although there are elements of the black experience blatantly in the narrative. It is instead more about how all the different -isms of a fictional society can react to one another.

It is, honestly, the only animated film that tries its hand at this, and its why I consider it without equal in the new Renaissance.
Beastars is very much the same in that regard, especially the part where all animals are burdened with different stereotypes.

And since Beastars is longer and more adult-oriented, it's better than Zootopia.