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[Zelda Dungeon] Diversity in Zelda: The Need for a Black Princess Zelda
- Thread starter Neoxon
- Start date
OP
OP
The people in......certain circles who cry out "forced diversity".
My stance from 2014:
arstechnica.com
The comment section from that year was...... not great.
Op-ed: It’s time for Nintendo to move beyond white characters
Why Nintendo should partake in an out-of-nowhere diversity conversation.
arstechnica.com
The comment section from that year was...... not great.
I'm not sure I can see Link or Zelda as dark skinned. I think Urbosa was an amazing character, so I definitely want a more diverse cast. But the only way a Link or Zelda can be "whatever race you want" is if they allow you to create your own character, and then I'm not sure it should be even be called The Legend of Zelda at that point.
TLoZ definitely has a race problem, because Dark Link is a bad guy and Ganondorf is dark skinned (Gerudo are mostly dark skinned) and he is evil. They have introduced other white skin bad guys in the game (skyward sword) and dark skin heroes (Midna? Urbosa and Riju). So I think that's a step in the right direction.
I don't think I agree with some people here trying to basically cancel Zelda lol
My dream Zelda game is having Link and Zelda be both playable at the same time. Imagine the puzzles and dungeons they can come up with if you have to think about splitting them both, explore rooms separately, etc. I'm hoping that's what BOTW2 will bring new to the franchise.
TLoZ definitely has a race problem, because Dark Link is a bad guy and Ganondorf is dark skinned (Gerudo are mostly dark skinned) and he is evil. They have introduced other white skin bad guys in the game (skyward sword) and dark skin heroes (Midna? Urbosa and Riju). So I think that's a step in the right direction.
I don't think I agree with some people here trying to basically cancel Zelda lol
My dream Zelda game is having Link and Zelda be both playable at the same time. Imagine the puzzles and dungeons they can come up with if you have to think about splitting them both, explore rooms separately, etc. I'm hoping that's what BOTW2 will bring new to the franchise.
My stance from 2014:
Op-ed: It’s time for Nintendo to move beyond white characters
Why Nintendo should partake in an out-of-nowhere diversity conversation.
The comment section from that year was...... not great.
That's a good article for sure. So we've seen slow changes via Pokemon, Arms, Splatoon 2. Like slooowww changes but it can be done.
I honestly think more higher profile games from other studios staring Black and Brown characters will apply market pressure. In fact I know it will
So you understand words like: " But the only way a Link or Zelda can be "whatever race you want" is if they allow you to create your own character, and then I'm not sure it should be even be called The Legend of Zelda at that point."
Does carry problems as to why this conversation can't be handled well? As if it's a point of contention? When it isn't?
They can literally do whatever they want. A person in a green tunic is Link.
I don't want to keep dunking on the article in the OP especially since I agree with the broad point but this section keeps annoying me:
Asking for Nintendo as they are today to make a story like Black is King is essentially asking a bunch of Japanese guys to write a strong black character and not mess it up hard in some way. That's a pretty darn risky idea imo. Obviously, they can do a lot better since they work for a multinational corporation (and they've had to deal with diversity issues in Zelda in the past), but keeping the current talent is probably not the best move long term if you're expecting positive black representation from the franchise.
After all, we saw Disney fuck up a whole lot on race issues for decades until they started actually consulting with POC during the creative process and give us the movies we actually want. See Pocahontas vs Moana for an example. Because of that, when I read something like "I wouldn't put it past Nintendo to deal delicately with the subject of race if part of the royal family of Hyrule was Black", my response is that I hope so, but I wouldn't put money on it.
I think part of the friction in this conversation comes from some people thinking about it in terms of what the Zelda lore lets Nintendo do (which is a lot) while others are thinking about it in terms of what the people currently at Nintendo are likely to do (not so much imo).
The argument here is basically that Nintendo should look to Disney and Netflix as positive examples of diversity, right? That's cool, except that we should acknowledge that part of the reason those projects are successful is because they are created by, or at the very least casted POC in prominent roles. I am 100% on board with a team of black developers making the next Zelda or Michael B Jordan playing Link in the next game or something, but we gotta be honest about what it is we're asking for.
Asking for Nintendo as they are today to make a story like Black is King is essentially asking a bunch of Japanese guys to write a strong black character and not mess it up hard in some way. That's a pretty darn risky idea imo. Obviously, they can do a lot better since they work for a multinational corporation (and they've had to deal with diversity issues in Zelda in the past), but keeping the current talent is probably not the best move long term if you're expecting positive black representation from the franchise.
After all, we saw Disney fuck up a whole lot on race issues for decades until they started actually consulting with POC during the creative process and give us the movies we actually want. See Pocahontas vs Moana for an example. Because of that, when I read something like "I wouldn't put it past Nintendo to deal delicately with the subject of race if part of the royal family of Hyrule was Black", my response is that I hope so, but I wouldn't put money on it.
I think part of the friction in this conversation comes from some people thinking about it in terms of what the Zelda lore lets Nintendo do (which is a lot) while others are thinking about it in terms of what the people currently at Nintendo are likely to do (not so much imo).
we should also have a talk about whether it's a good idea for royalty to be used as positive role models in fiction in the first place but that's a conversation for another thread tbh
MORE BLACK AUTOCRATS (clapping emojis)
Who specifically in this thread do you think is trying to "cancel" Zelda? Asking for a black iteration of Zelda isn't "cancelling" the various white versions of Zelda if that is what you are implying. I don't think cancelling is even being used in the correct context here anyway.
Miles Morales is a bad example because Miles Morales is Spider-Man. Just like how a black Zelda could be her own character and still be Zelda, a princess who holds the Triforce of Wisdom.
Zelda is an amazing, long-running and beloved IP that has easy built-in lore to support diversity and all people want to do is defend Nintendo's decision to make every Hero of Time a blond white guy and the holder of the Triforce of Wisdom a blond white girl.
The series has alternate timelines and time travel, but god forbid we introduce diversity in the main characters.
From my point of view, this isn't a benefit, it just generate hate on each side and it doesn't help either way.
The 80's were a different time. The idea of creating link and Mario as black characters was definitely not given a fair shot. Nintendo can and should make original black main characters AND also retroactively make some of their iconic characters black.
I don't see why it can't work in TLOZ either. Zelda and Link are reincarnated as new characters in each entry anyway. Nothing says the reincarnations can't be black.
I don't see why it can't work in TLOZ either. Zelda and Link are reincarnated as new characters in each entry anyway. Nothing says the reincarnations can't be black.
Don't forget to help out local programming and game design programs in your area to encourage greater diversity in up and coming computer scientists. In Detroit there's a great program called Black Girls Code, and there are also a number of Summer Camp programs. If you can, consider donating expertise, time, or money to these sorts of programs. Even if you yourself aren't skilled with computers, game design benefits from people with skill composing music, writing stories, designing architecture, and even crafting non-digital (card games, boardgames, etc.) game mechanics.
And keep in mind that a young black programmer might not be thinking of the character design you're thinking of. They might want a robot, a dinosaur, a pink puffball, etc. So make sure that you aren't just going for lip-service, work towards diversity in the field of computer science.
And keep in mind that a young black programmer might not be thinking of the character design you're thinking of. They might want a robot, a dinosaur, a pink puffball, etc. So make sure that you aren't just going for lip-service, work towards diversity in the field of computer science.
So what are you adding to the conversation aside from your drive by post of this isn't good?
Please share with the class. What ideas you got? Are Nintendo games doing a good job here? What you got aside from a plate of nothing?
yes and no, I can see where you are coming from tho but I would have to disagree, SpiderMan is more of a title, similar to Hero of Time.
We can have a hispanic hero of time but I would prefer if he wasnt Link, the same way having a Black Hispanic hero take on the role of SpiderMan Id rather see someone new than just say hey btw Peter Parker? he now is Black and Hispanic.
Instead of just switching up the skin of Link and Zelda what about we just have games that revolve around new characters like
Now we just need them to make some cool characters that are black, hispanic, asian etc first.
Linkle was problematic herself. Like, she's a woman and her main gimmick is she's bad at directions and can't read a map... Seriously??
Women being bad at directions is a huge stereotype. It would be like if they made the first Black Link a hip hop dancer or something
I agree with you. It's a similar concept to me as when people say "make Link a girl/make Zelda the knight". It's a lazy answer to diversity.
I would love a black/brown main character, but I want them to be written that way, so that the way they navigate the world is reflected in that identity. Of course I'm not saying that they need to be constantly "othered", but I want to be able to relate to them as a BIPOC in more than just "reskin of character".
Again, it sounds like you want to appeal to a set of Gamers who will find a reason to be mad, regardless. Better not rock the boat, you might upset a bigot!
Fuck it, they should go whole hog on this. Have a southeast asian Link get captured and you play as black Zelda to try and save him. "oh but my canon" doesn't hold any water, they can invent any fucking reason they want to make anything make sense as they are in charge. If they don't do something, it's because they don't want to do something, their hands aren't tied.
This isn't a Mario situation, every damn character in TLoZ has had multiple reincarnations. They have no excuse for the lack of diversity.
This isn't a Mario situation, every damn character in TLoZ has had multiple reincarnations. They have no excuse for the lack of diversity.
You know what I would love to see? An entire Zelda game inspired by Latin American culture. Regardless of what kingdom, town, or valley you enter you see people of all skin colors living together. Hylians, Kokiri, Gerudo, all of them. I don't believe it's set in stone that every race in Hyrule is limited to a single skin color.
Black Zelda? I'm all for it. But I would also love to see more Latino representation that isn't just brown skin.
And yeah, Link should be fully customable including, eye, hair and skin color.
Black Zelda? I'm all for it. But I would also love to see more Latino representation that isn't just brown skin.
And yeah, Link should be fully customable including, eye, hair and skin color.
User banned (1 month): Dismissing concerns of representation
i think forced diversity is not good
usually forcing things doesnt lead to good things
diversity should be wanted and appreciated
Yes. 100% you are right
We should be able to make any Link we want to. Link as a male shouldnt exist. Or ok. He can exist, but just as one of many.
I get and agree with this for some games, but not for Zelda. Having a POC main character in Zelda who suddenly has to navigate racism and inequality when that's never been a thing in the games would make me question why we can't just have a POC lead with none of our real world baggage, when white leads never have to bother and can just exist without having to justify or explain their presence in this world.
I think we should have a Afghan Link. No joke. We should have an eastern middle east Link. Like the Prince of Persia. 😊
Why only a Prince of Persia?
Why only a Prince of Persia?
Never? Lmaoooo. Sooo the threat of Ganondorf from the Gerudo...you felt wasn't dipping into racism?
I understand and respect the logic behind this, but I think this leads to its own can of worms.
Zelda is fantasy. I think it should be ok to want to see Black representation in fantasy settings without needing the real world Black experience to be written into it, because what is the Black experience in Hyrule? Racism? Discrimination? We don't know that, and it doesn't have to be that. Obviously, if this were to be something Nintendo did (and, no, never in a million years would Nintendo do this) they would have to consult Black talent for sensitivity reasons; but I think it's ok for Black people to want fantastical stories and experiences without being hit over the head with the real world experience. Sometimes, Black settings and Black characters are really enough, and I think Fantasy really is the genre where you can get away with "surface level" representation that is nevertheless still impactful.
I honestly think the reason why this discussion comes up so often with Zelda is because It's the legacy Nintendo property with the most built-in lore to support a wide range of diversity in their main cast. And again we've seen them do it...when it comes to their villains.
Yes, obviously, but what I mean is that in the game world the Gerudo didn't face discrimination because of their race. We as the audience can see the issues with their representation, but that's separate from how the game world treats them.
I mean, there's more to being a BIPOC/visible minority than racism/discrimination - for example, perhaps you have certain cultural references and therefore perspectives that differ from the majority. Or, perhaps others expect you to, but you actually don't. Maybe there's curiosity or assumptions regarding your features/lineage, etc etc
I don't really get why anytime the idea of the BIPOC experience is mentioned, people think it has to be tied with trauma/discomfort. There can be a richness with it as well. Or it can be a neutral experience!
For example, one way this could be written in a Zelda setting is say all of a sudden, a Gerudo girl is born with the Triforce of Wisdom, and it turns out she somehow has lineage to the Royal Family. How would she react to this revelation, and how would the world of Hyrule react to it? How would the story and her character development change versus if she were just a typical Hylian princess?
There's many ways to engage with the topic more deeply without necessarily making a grand statement about racism/discrimination/the Black struggle.
But there's a game world where their entire race is egg stealing pirates though. And the rest of the time the game world treats them like the enemies they are cause their society requires them to follow the fucking Prince of Darkness
BotW is definitely better with this subject though and I'd attribute that step in the right direction to Nintendo actually addressing the real world baggage.
Okay so let's pump the breaks. They are a threat because they are desert people. Media doesn't have to give you an encyclopedia to tell you a specific kind of people are bad. Ganondorf is told to us he's a threat from the desert people. The desert people in this game are viewed and shown to mostly be bad guys only.
So the Brown people in this game are the origin point of the big bad. A land of danger and all that mess. And you're really going to tell me this isn't racist? It may not be blatant but it falls right into it.
The Gerudo in Ocarina of Time aren't given the same grace and handling like other groups.
But if you want to interject say that it's "okay" that the desert people in a game staring a white elf is fine to be seen as baddies mostly? LOL.
Blue too.. :)
And a small reason why I think It CAN an change.
It's a shame a character avatar can't be given even simple options like they do in even Pokémon. I'm surprised people cling so hard to the idea that "Link" is only one single idea (and like it genuinely matters THIS much) (and I've played all the games!! It's not THAT big a deal, cuz he literally says next to nothing besides "AUUGGHGH").
I'm quoting this post again because it's absolutely awesome. ⚡
This why I took matters into my own hands during my first BOTW playthrough. Cus I know Nintendo would never give it to me.
We need new leading POC characters in Nintendo's worlds. With genuine effort put into their development and backgrounds. As POC Black Zelda is not the answer.
OP
OP
Oh, I absolutely agree with you (and I think the bold is a wonderful story idea).
I guess I just don't view this as particularly different storytelling than what we get with Link and Zelda in almost every game. Link in OoT, for example, isn't a normal Hylian. He's thought to be a Kokiri, a child of the forest. And several characters you meet in his adventure react to that. It absolutely shapes his place in the world and how he's perceived/treated. Nintendo could easily do this for a Black Link, or a Gerudo Zelda; it's the basic storytelling they already do in their games.
So when people usually say that they don't want Black main characters in Zelda because Nintendo wouldn't get the "experience" right, my mind pivots to the aspects of the "Black experience" that would introduce unique challenges to Nintendo's usual level of storytelling. This usually leads me to trauma. But I do apologize if that wasn't your angle.
Got it, I was misunderstanding that phrase then.
Again, if you read my post instead of jumping the gun, you'll see I'm agreeing with you but all of that is only evident from our perspective as the audience. Hylians, as far as I remember, don't hate or mistreat the Gerudo just because they're not Hylian. So why should Link, if he happens to be Gerudo, have to suddenly have a story about earning his place as the Hero? White Link has been a forest kid, a ranch herd, a knight, but has never had to justify why he is the hero. That's all I'm saying.
Doesn't Ganondorf give even more nuance to this in Wind Waker? It's been forever since I played/beat WW, but didn't he say he sought the Triforce because his race was ostracized and forced to essentially live out a meager existence in the desert?
So like, even when giving him more than just "Big Bad Evil Guy" it's still showing that the Gerudo were treated differently by the Hylians than the partnerships they had with say, the Gorons or Zora.
The Zelda series has been predominantly if not exclusively been created in Japan by Japanese developers and has a lot of Japanese aesthetics behind its Celtic influences. Placing a black Zelda into the game as the thread title suggests to put the spotlight on the African American experience is something I suspect your typical Nintendo developer is going to struggle to understand because African American discrimination its not something they see in their society first hand. They'll need to understand a largely foreign narrative and then convey it as they understand it with all the sensibilities and subtleties that has taken America a long time to get to.
I'm not saying Japanese game developers wouldn't understand it rather if you want the Zelda series to handle issues like discrimination, they need to start looking at social justice issues within the Japanese society that they can relate to. Something like:
I think expecting what is a predominantly a Japanese development team to somehow understand and provide a nuanced and sophisticated critique of the African American experience is asking too much. It would be a different story if Zelda was made by a big US studio where minorities are making the game but their voices are never heard by upper management, but Zelda is made by Japanese developers so if you want them to tackle a social justice issue, it's going to be hard if its not an issue more native to their society.
I'm not saying Japanese game developers wouldn't understand it rather if you want the Zelda series to handle issues like discrimination, they need to start looking at social justice issues within the Japanese society that they can relate to. Something like:
- the role of women in Japanese society and the stigma placed on them if they continue to work after marriage.
- The disparaging view on older single females.
- the discrimination faced by minority non-citizens like Koreans, Chinese, and Brazilians living in Japan.
I think expecting what is a predominantly a Japanese development team to somehow understand and provide a nuanced and sophisticated critique of the African American experience is asking too much. It would be a different story if Zelda was made by a big US studio where minorities are making the game but their voices are never heard by upper management, but Zelda is made by Japanese developers so if you want them to tackle a social justice issue, it's going to be hard if its not an issue more native to their society.
Completely agree with this and your quoted post: diversity should be more than taking X or Y and making it black. And I would love to see a game where Zelda was the lead playable. Hell, give me a Gerudo spin-off where you play as a member of the tribe and explore the origins of Ganondorf.
Sure, why not, if there's a series that could get away with it from a lore perspective, it's this one. I mean the entire lore is all about how a new Link and Zelda exist across multiple generations and you can easily switch races between those generations.
It also would be neat if Zelda played with the "chosen one" trope a bit more too. Like what if Link was a gerudu in the next one? or shit, a zora? There's a lot of interesting room to experiment with Zelda's approach to the multiple links and multiple zeldas that the series hasn't really taken full advantage of.
It also would be neat if Zelda played with the "chosen one" trope a bit more too. Like what if Link was a gerudu in the next one? or shit, a zora? There's a lot of interesting room to experiment with Zelda's approach to the multiple links and multiple zeldas that the series hasn't really taken full advantage of.
Nintendo's more recently created franchises seem to have a bit more diversity, but when it comes to something like Zelda I just don't see Nintendo taking that step with the main player characters in mainline games unless they just did a full character creator.
The main decision makers at Nintendo are all up in Kyoto, which if I'm to understand correctly makes it even more opaque than a typical Tokyo company. Nintendo's an international company but in a lot of ways doesn't act like one, and I wonder if it's because there are no other Kyoto companies that relevant on the world stage.
The main decision makers at Nintendo are all up in Kyoto, which if I'm to understand correctly makes it even more opaque than a typical Tokyo company. Nintendo's an international company but in a lot of ways doesn't act like one, and I wonder if it's because there are no other Kyoto companies that relevant on the world stage.
I don't think "Hey Bedouin/Navajo/Pintupi/other desert dwelling peoples, the way your people have lived for thousands of years is so abhorrent that it would surely drive somebody to attain power to use for evil" is that inclusive when you dive into it. It's still perpetuating the "desert people = bad" trope.
I love those Zelda mockups, and would happily play a black Zelda game. This of course isn't a substitute for original content based on black characters. Also we just need more black people making games in general. I'm a white dude all the time, I'm so bored of white dude stories, opinions and experiences because I live that shit 25/8.
By the way, for the people who think Link is not white and is just an ambiguous mix of Japanese and white:
www.gonintendo.com
Link's design in Ocarina of Time is based off a famous Hollywood actor
From the GoNintendo Archives
By the way, for the people who think Link is not white and is just an ambiguous mix of Japanese and white:
Link's design in Ocarina of Time is based off a famous Hollywood actor
From the GoNintendo Archives
This is just one Link though.
Off the top of my head, we've seen like, 9 or 10 different Links. As in, different people with different designs.