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[Zelda Dungeon] Diversity in Zelda: The Need for a Black Princess Zelda
- Thread starter Neoxon
- Start date
Really nice look. Was that hard to do?This why I took matters into my own hands during my first BOTW playthrough. Cus I know Nintendo would never give it to me.
The first thing that comes to mind is that it simply used to be like this in Zelda since the beginning, i.e. characters being white because Nintendo drew inspiration from popular Western fantasy works like The Lord of the Rings or King Arthur.
But you are right, there doesn't need to be an explicit lore reason in order to portray a character like Zelda in a different way than usual.
Seeing Neoxon's "A Celebration of Black Characters in Games" thread, it would be great if Nintendo did something like this with one of their existing IPs like Zelda in addition to creating new IPs with more POC.
It seems even more needed seeing the ridiculous reactions in here just from an opinion/suggestion, along with people quoting the same "As a Black man" trope/joke post from the first page over and over vs actually having to engage in the discussion.
Agreed, especially on Link being customizable. Personally I would prefer the ability to customize Link and Zelda beyond names (skin, hair, face, etc...). Making one of the reincarnations in a future game POC would be great too, but it likely would allow Nintendo to then go back to "status quo" for the next reincarnation/system cycle vs using their other IPs without reincarnation/new IPs and spin off IPs.
It seems even more needed seeing the ridiculous reactions in here just from an opinion/suggestion, along with people quoting the same "As a Black man" trope/joke post from the first page over and over vs actually having to engage in the discussion.
Agreed, especially on Link being customizable. Personally I would prefer the ability to customize Link and Zelda beyond names (skin, hair, face, etc...). Making one of the reincarnations in a future game POC would be great too, but it likely would allow Nintendo to then go back to "status quo" for the next reincarnation/system cycle vs using their other IPs without reincarnation/new IPs and spin off IPs.
This why I took matters into my own hands during my first BOTW playthrough. Cus I know Nintendo would never give it to me.
I don't mean to sound patronizing if I do: But can I ask how it changed your playthrough/how it made you feel?
I love it though. This enough should be proof alone how easy it is to see the concept working; I hate to see people push back. Especially a character like Link.
I don't normally enjoy silent protags, but I admitted I really loved being able to play as a female avatar in Xenoblade X (and I love this series, but especially loved playing 'me' compared to the other two games that star young men as its leads haha)
There are very few characters if any really at all that have an in lore reason to be white or black or whatever. Ganondorf may be Gerudo but he has faaaaar less reincarnations than Zelda or Link have had. The same Ganon has come back multiple times right? Is there even a lore reason that says the male Gerudo always turns out to be a shit lord? There really isn't a reason to always have him be Gerudo unless they simply keep using the current Ganondorf, which they seem to be using in BotW2.
In regards to specifically Link I have thought for a long time that they should at least give the option to change his skin, eye, and hair color at the start of the game. Like why the fuck not?
In regards to specifically Link I have thought for a long time that they should at least give the option to change his skin, eye, and hair color at the start of the game. Like why the fuck not?
I get that the law of intertia hits hard for stuff like this, but in franchises where characters are ACTUALLY not the same person, but a reincarnation, I think the whole "keep it the same" thing needs to go out the window anyway. I get not wanting Nathan Drake to look super different in different games that takes place within one world, one timeline, one lifespan, but I feel like the Zelda games luckily aren't restrictive like that.
While I think it's a good and feasible idea, I would 100% prefere a new IP with more varied representation from the main cast, my reason is that if they make it in a new Zelda game it will be (probably) encapsulated in that only game and next probably will be back to the og designs. A new IP if it has the full backing from Nintendo could become a main stay.
Wind Waker Zelda should have had brown skin.
Source: https://www.deviantart.com/theskywaker/art/Zelda-Short-Hair-6-14-2019-801700037
Source: https://www.deviantart.com/theskywaker/art/Zelda-Short-Hair-6-14-2019-801700037
It's not like Zelda is just one person across all games, it's just a reincarnation of the holder of the trifoce or wisdom, just like Link has Courage and Ganon Power.
Also, being a holder doesn't mean you have to look exactly as the previous holders I guess. Afaik there is nothing in lore that says so.
Also, being a holder doesn't mean you have to look exactly as the previous holders I guess. Afaik there is nothing in lore that says so.
because Zelda has to be pale, its extremely important to the lore of LoZ.
/s
Nah, CEMU has an optional modpack that includes mods for BOTW that let you customize all kinds of stuff pretty seamlessly.
Not a problem, it's like you said, the idea of playing 'me' feels amazing. Not to say I cannot connect with characters that are not black, I can. But when you have blank slate/silent protagonists I just question why the character couldn't just be custom then lol. But yeah, it just immerses me in the world even more seeing somebody of my complexion bumbling around in these worlds, especially as an older brother who has seen his siblings opt to not make/choose black characters because they find them unappealing/don't consider them beautiful/etc.
Personally, I grew up with games like the sims and rpgs that let me change the color of my characters skin at the bare minimum. So I'm pretty biased from the jump anyway 😂
I mean characters straight up have different hair and eye colors. Skin color shouldn't be an issue at all either.
I don't see this happening, sadly. Nintendo is very much a "give you a product, take it or leave it" kind of company, and the fact that the article has to emphasize "in America" when it comes to racial inequalities all but assures its wishes are aimed for deaf ears. Asking the most "traditional" of Japanese companies to usurp tradition will only lead to frustration when you're reminded in the eleventh game made after your personal wishes that they don't give a shit. The only solution to this is if they ever make a Zelda game where you can choose who Link and Zelda look at the start in a character creator system. This is your only hope and prayer going forward.
This is the same company that has a committee to determine if new Mario characters are "Mario enough" from the perspective of easily identifiable brand imagery. Do you really think they're going to make main characters who weren't black before black now?
This is the same company that has a committee to determine if new Mario characters are "Mario enough" from the perspective of easily identifiable brand imagery. Do you really think they're going to make main characters who weren't black before black now?
User banned (1 month): dismissing concerns around representation
Nintendo is not a American company. Stop imposing your values on everyone on this planet.
OP
OP
They're still very much a global company. And even then, what values?
The article in the OP is too US-centric, but it's not like Japan doesn't have an issue with racism too. They should have a Black Zelda even if you don't factor "the US" into it
And why doesn't that go for white Zelda? Is there some "hidden" lore we don't know of that means she has to be white?
I know you are banned but what the fuck?
Nintendo sells itself as this "For Everyone" company. Wanting representation isn't American exclusive thing.
I don't know if this argument can be used to defend a company that has had no problem mining the global "Black/Brown people as villainous, barbaric, and/or sexualized" trope this entire time.
Nintendo has a whole American branch whose President was a Haitian man from the Bronx for a cool decade+ . Reggie ain't walk for you hogs to be in here acting like Big Tendo don't know black people exist.
Aren't y'all tired of this pandering shit? Yes, let's take the easiest way out by taking an established character, with NO history of a black experience instead of Nintendo creating NEW black characters with their own legend and stories.
this suggestion is not inclusion.
this suggestion is not inclusion.
Nah, it's fine.
It doesn't make any sense that the bloodline would only have white people in it.
Also, we need more indigenous race characters in The Legend of Zelda series.
Every Zelda has new characters. BOTW Link isn't the same as OOT Link. Same goes to Zelda, Ganon or even Impa.
Why not both?
Because, I mean, what white experience does Zelda have?
I posted this in another thread,
No idea Nintendo's particular management here,
But it's very common sort of ideology ingrained in both business and creatives:
I've worked with a lot of game developers, and, particularly the non-indie side, when creating new characters, the instinctual default is always "male, white," in many cases. It's not even a discussion, they just get drawn that way. The Character gets designed based on whatever game-design need there is, whatever the request in either the pitch or the roster, in this "default" state.
then, any variant - gender, color - is perceived as "making a statement" - so then team leads will come in and evaluate the risk/value of that statement. This discussion doesn't happen on the "default" character, which pretty much just follows standard "is this character cohesive with the art style of the world" type feedback.
obviously that's not a universal truth by any stretch, it's just I've seen it happen so many times it's always struck me as insanely odd.
"why can't that <whatever> character be dark skinned?" - "oh. Well, we didn't think of that. we don't want to make a statement with him"
but "we do need some diversity, so let's make THIS roster character <black, brown, whatever> since we need a "spear character" anyway"
in this "but it's making a statement!" mentality, you can't just "make Zelda black" without press and consumers focusing on it, so the studio and publisher have teams sit and decide in advance if "the risk" is worth the attention. Or just go with the default, and sell what you know works.
it's really very tiring.
No idea Nintendo's particular management here,
But it's very common sort of ideology ingrained in both business and creatives:
I've worked with a lot of game developers, and, particularly the non-indie side, when creating new characters, the instinctual default is always "male, white," in many cases. It's not even a discussion, they just get drawn that way. The Character gets designed based on whatever game-design need there is, whatever the request in either the pitch or the roster, in this "default" state.
then, any variant - gender, color - is perceived as "making a statement" - so then team leads will come in and evaluate the risk/value of that statement. This discussion doesn't happen on the "default" character, which pretty much just follows standard "is this character cohesive with the art style of the world" type feedback.
obviously that's not a universal truth by any stretch, it's just I've seen it happen so many times it's always struck me as insanely odd.
"why can't that <whatever> character be dark skinned?" - "oh. Well, we didn't think of that. we don't want to make a statement with him"
but "we do need some diversity, so let's make THIS roster character <black, brown, whatever> since we need a "spear character" anyway"
in this "but it's making a statement!" mentality, you can't just "make Zelda black" without press and consumers focusing on it, so the studio and publisher have teams sit and decide in advance if "the risk" is worth the attention. Or just go with the default, and sell what you know works.
it's really very tiring.
There should literally be an Indigenous Zelda.
I'm serious.
Let's have multiple Zeldas of different ethnicities.
It's a common trend in anime style drawings where men are allowed to be slightly tanned while women can only be white as snow.
I think there should be Indigenous characters especially (Native American and so on).
Seriously, God help anyone that's Indigenous; they have to deal with being singled out all the time, it seems.
What exactly do you mean? Like, character designs influenced by indigenous cultures? That would be great, yeah.
Japan is a "Western" culture in many senses.
I'm dead serious about that claim.
Ainu-inspired Zelda would be dope. Not the subject of this thread though
Yes, exactly.
My indigenous friends should have more representation.
Also, mixed people.
Us mixed people need representation. Like, seriously.
Heck, I'd be cool with that.
At the heart of Zelda is a reincarnation/chosen-one story. I think it would only benefit the world of Zelda to...well, explore its world.
I agree!
And we already have Native American or Indigenous influences in Zelda starting with at least Majora's Mask. So let's have more of that.
Too many Europeans in fantasy, smdh
Jokes aside, I do agree with you, but in this case the characters literally be reincarnating damn near every game dawg. They coulda easily gone the way of avatar but I guess Link's look is too marketable.
Sure, why not?
Or the various Indigenous cultures across the Americas.
Well, I mean, both sides are right.
Jokes aside, I do agree with you, but in this case the characters literally be reincarnating damn near every game dawg. They coulda easily gone the way of avatar but I guess Link's look is too marketable.
We need NEW non-white characters and NEW incarnations of white characters that are non-white.
I mean, why not both?