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[Zelda Dungeon] Diversity in Zelda: The Need for a Black Princess Zelda
- Thread starter Neoxon
- Start date
I think the reason they went with Min Min instead of Twintelle is because Twintelle doesn't fight with her arms. And therefore is a pretty bad representation of the game she came from.
My issue with simply changing existing ones, not that I think they shouldn't (because a Latina Lara Croft like they planned would be awesome) is that when you just change an existing character that all, but guarantees it's not permanent.
It's the difference between if they'd just made a black Peter Parker vs Miles Morales. The former would have had the same rogues gallery and relationships, maybe with variations, but a new writer could just change him back or to another race, and all that build up would essentially be lost and he'd just become another random variant as opposed to his own unique character that would endure
I don't believe in the "Zelda timeline" so each new title is different world for me, a black Zelda would be fine, i still don't get Zelda in WW went from brown to pasty white the second she turned into royalty, even in like 2003 people joked about how stupid that was.
Nintendo is another issue though, Japan is a homogeneous society & even korean immigrants got forced to changed their surname to japanese, the idea of diversity can be lost on them culturally, the only chance you have is NOA pushing for it.
Nintendo is another issue though, Japan is a homogeneous society & even korean immigrants got forced to changed their surname to japanese, the idea of diversity can be lost on them culturally, the only chance you have is NOA pushing for it.
maybe the femal knight concept game they hinted at a long time ago might be more your speed
How does this make sense in the context of TLOZ? Link and Zelda are always different characters. WW Zelda is a different character than OoT Zelda and both are different characters than BotW Zelda who are all different from the original LOZ Zelda. Why couldn't the royal family become mixed after all these millennia and have a dark skinned princess?
Black dude here, and I'm for it. Make Link black too, fuck it. Not like Black Hylians aren't a thing, they just don't pop up often and maybe they should. And even it they weren't a thing, it'd just be a good look overall.
But I'm also absolutely behind the posts calling for more original POC characters from Nintendo. I actually think that'd be more valuable overall, tbh.
But I'm also absolutely behind the posts calling for more original POC characters from Nintendo. I actually think that'd be more valuable overall, tbh.
I'm not sure why when black people ask for black representation, other minorities feel like they...can't?
If anyone wanted to claim Tetra as brown, they're free to do so and I would support that, nor would I characterize it as dismissive of black people. In general, I, nor this thread, nor other Black Era members who agree with this one author's premise are getting in the way of other groups asserting the kind of reclamation and representation they want to say. Hell, I would take a Zelda game that actually leans into an East Asian culture, because there's no reason why it has to remain rooted in the basic Medieval get-up.
There's no reason to make this thread into one that's exclusionary. Y'all have free reign to make your cases too.
I don't really have a strong opinion in this matter, but if people do want a black Zelda or Link, give it to them, the lore allows it so I don't see any problem whatsoever, they could be like the avatar from the ATLA/TLK changing race, gender, or culture with each reincarnation and that would make a more interesting take in future games with reversed gender roles or even some crazier ideas like a Zora Link or something, making them asian, black, latino, or whatever they want should be easy if we were not talking about Nintendo, but I just wanted to point out that while Link and Zelda are reincarnations, Ganondorf isn't. Only in Four Sword Adventures we have a reincarnation, but the Ganondorf/Ganon we see in each game is the same from Ocarina of Time (his first chronological appearence). He's often sealed so he simply comes back, or he's straight up resurrected.
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Like I said, this would be closer to a Miles Morales situation on account of most versions of Zelda are reincarnations, not the literal same character.
Isn't the second game literally a direct sequel to the first game?
This was always my feeling when the "female Link" was a debate. The series is able to do it without the idea of just painting an existing character a different color or gender.
Well if they can decide to not white wash a character, I might be able to give it a look again.
My point is that a simple color swap isn't a fix for diversity representation. Real representation isn't going to ever happen until it's more rooted in society's psyche as a whole, which I don't expect to happen in my lifetime. That's why I prefer new characters, because at least it doesn't seem so superficial, and it's not annoying older fans whom may have been attached. As a minority, if I'm going to be repped, I want to be proud of said character rather than feel like I'm just being used as a check mark to fulfill some sort of quota.
If a new Zelda game came out and Zelda or Link were black, I wouldn't exactly dislike it. In fact, I'd be pumped. I think in general, there should be more Zelda characters of varying ethnicities. That said... I can't help but feel that they would just become and be reduced to "the black Zelda" and "the black Link." Like they would just be seen as a one-off version of the character- they probably wouldn't even get into Smash.
So I'm not against the idea, it's more like... it's not good enough. They can do it but it won't be good enough for me until we get Nintendo IPs with actual black protagonists so that they can just be their own characters instead of black versions of another. It's like a temporary band-aid to a bigger problem imo.
So I'm not against the idea, it's more like... it's not good enough. They can do it but it won't be good enough for me until we get Nintendo IPs with actual black protagonists so that they can just be their own characters instead of black versions of another. It's like a temporary band-aid to a bigger problem imo.
To be fair, there are black Hylians in BotW and the King in that game married into the royal family because Zelda's mother was the Zelda before her. So really, you'd just need a black Hylian to marry into the royal family.
User Banned (Permanent): Inflammatory comparison regarding minority representation, previous severe ban for rationalizing discrimination
Why not have Miles Morales be a white dude in the next version of the comics?
Has anyone here explained why Nintendo can't "do both" or how this would somehow be bad yet?
Not only do they look different, but they have different personalities too. But somehow making her black one single time would both break the canon and just end up being a palette swap.
"Logic".
The last TMNT cartoon made their version of April O'Neal black. And *gasp* she wasn't just a palette swap either. She had her own look and her own personality. Guess that's somehow not possible for Zelda though.
Just quoting to say that this is very good synopsis of the paradox black people are in when it comes to entertainment, especially with videogames and the gamer crowd. And based on the replies here, we're a long ways off from breaking out of that paradox.
But Link and Zelda both vastly change appearances in damn near every other game.
Hair color, eye color, height and weight changes? Sure no problem. But they get more melanin and it's breaking the canon? For goodness sakes, like OP said, the King is black in several incarnations. It's not as wild as you're making it out to be.
Not only do they look different, but they have different personalities too. But somehow making her black one single time would both break the canon and just end up being a palette swap.
"Logic".
The last TMNT cartoon made their version of April O'Neal black. And *gasp* she wasn't just a palette swap either. She had her own look and her own personality. Guess that's somehow not possible for Zelda though.
Just quoting to say that this is very good synopsis of the paradox black people are in when it comes to entertainment, especially with videogames and the gamer crowd. And based on the replies here, we're a long ways off from breaking out of that paradox.
Because we whites have like 40 different white spider men?
We have no right or reason to try and change other characters ethnicities as we aren't ever hurting for representation. We aren't hurt because characters are able to represent more than us.
Why not.
The only consistent formula in every LoZ game is the members of the Triforce and Link wearing green and having a sword and shield (mostly)
The only consistent formula in every LoZ game is the members of the Triforce and Link wearing green and having a sword and shield (mostly)
I'm all for it, more diversity is a nice thing.
I honestly don't think this counts. Isn't this just "in the sun all day" pirate forme turning into "actually, I'm a princess untouched by the sun" forme? That's how it came across to me.I am going say this you don't want nintendo to do this because they already did once and well
may i remind you they literally whitewashed her in the same game, we don't know if nintendo would handle it respectively if at all unproblematic
This thread is hurting my brain, I feel like there are people that find the race of their fictional characters to be this strange sacred ground. Like why can't old iconic characters change race? What damage is done if they are? It's pretty clear it has large positives to society as a whole if they are. Like y'all really attached to some game art from like 20 years ago?
I'm Latinx (if that's relevant, for some reason) but diversity is always good.
I'm Latinx (if that's relevant, for some reason) but diversity is always good.
I mean yeah, Zelda 2, spirit tracks/phantom hourglass (kinda?) & soon BOTW2, but for the most part i don't believe they ever planned a timeline & it's something fans created, which isn't a bad thing or anything.
But it wouldn't be the same, because what about the next Zelda after that? Instead of being able to look forward to another black Link/Zelda it would be a toss up what race they'd be. Miles Morales works because he'll always be Miles Morales. Regardless of the variations he'll always have the same qualities, and relationships, and backstory, etc just like no matter how many times they reboot Spiderman with Peter Parker he'll always have his Aunt Ben's death spur him, or live with Aunt May, or be in love with Mary Jane/Felicia. I want black characters where I can reliably look forward to their next games is what I'm saying
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Make a thread about lack of representation of other races.
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Zelda games hop from timeline to timeline all the time, so there are ways to tell different stories with different Zeldas if they really want to.
We'd honestly be lucky to get one.
Yeah this is how I feel. I'm in the "do both camp." Just making Link or Zelda black once is not enough for me.
As far as I know, that's a common misconception, but she wasn't
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So as far as I could find out, she wasn't, but Baxter Stockman was
For the article in the OP specifically, I brought up the issue because it's not a logically sound argument. We all agree that the status quo is bad, but if the argument for one specific alternative literally doesn't mention any of the other obvious ones it's pretty weak. The author literally uses "people of color" and "black" interchangeably.
I think a lot of posts in this thread have explained the argument much more clearly than that article though fwiw
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It still factors under issues of how skin colour is being used. The King of Red Lions seems to always have a tan. Why wouldn't her Princess form be tanned as well? Did her skin magically un-tan? :S Also the "fair skin princess" is an old and dated trope that has bad implications toward how we see dark skin. Zelda is still going to be Zelda even with a tan, she didn't need to be made pastey white.
It could be possible that designers don't always think about it (especially if their offices lack the kinda of diversity you see in some parts of the world). But a push for it, and especially since the Zelda series has so many fantastic NPCs, would be so easy and amazing to see.
The series takes nods from real-world cultures quite often, and I love a lot about what they did with the Gerudo's (especially BOTW really having fun with it). So I hope it'll open up more doors in the future.
I can see why most of the people who are against the race change thing, because it would be a temporary measure, it wouldn't be permanent. the character would go back to their original race over time, look what happened with DC and wally west they race changed him to make him the new wally west new kid flash only to bring back the old white one in the comics. people want new characters that will stay for a long time not a character who would change race temporarily, they wan permanent diversity not temporary diversity
Settings like Majora's Mask and ALBW would have been good opportunities to have Black versions of the characters if they really don't want to simply put them in Hyrule
Oh yeah, absolutely, it's the whole noble = no tan thing that you can still see in many countries with skin bleach cream and all that messed up stuff.
So the tan removal is an issue, yeah, but I just wanted to point out that Nintendo did not have the balls to make Zelda, even "undercover" Zelda, actually anything but white.
I would like to see a prominent black character in Zelda/Mario that isn't just a race swap. As a black person, I never feel like that character IS black, it's just some alternate dimension type stuff that will undoubtedly change back leaving me with nothing in the long run.
I just like new, original characters that being black is just part of who they are at their core. Just making a white person black is... I guess it's a step, but it feels so half-baked.
I just like new, original characters that being black is just part of who they are at their core. Just making a white person black is... I guess it's a step, but it feels so half-baked.
I don't like palette swaps because most of the time they are just a one time thing. If I wanted a character to represent my country I would rather that character to be original and to continue going forward. Getting a Costa Rican lara croft would be awesome, but if in the next game she goes back to a white London girl then did it really matter?
I would buy a Zelda game with a pallet swap? Day one of course, but I rather have original characters.
Also western games need to stop seeing latam as a land of drugs. I am tired of that BS, that's all I see, and fuck you with your yellow tint.
I would buy a Zelda game with a pallet swap? Day one of course, but I rather have original characters.
Also western games need to stop seeing latam as a land of drugs. I am tired of that BS, that's all I see, and fuck you with your yellow tint.
This was my initial thought, but wasn't sure how others felt. I'm all for diverse characters, but I also don't want it to feel forced. Maybe it could be done where it didn't feel forced, but why not just do a new series, or reboot an old series and make the main characters poc?
I will add that if they went this route I'd still support it and I'm confident I would even enjoy it.
I can see where you're coming from. There are upsides to both making a reincarnation of Zelda black, and having a unique black character that's a main character. And of course, both could happen in theory... but I think the second one is much more likely, seeing how Nintendo is Nintendo. And sadly
I agree with you, but I'm going to sit here and patiently wait for an Idris Elba Batman or James Bond.
Thank you for this. Getting really tired of other minorities complaining whenever us black people speak up for ourselves.
Attention fellow minorities: You all are always free to make you're own threads/posts requesting diversity and inclusion for your own race. I greatly encourage it. No need to come into a topic about black people created by a black man and whine because he didn't speak up for you. Us black people can't always be caping for and speaking for everyone else.
That would be news to me. Always seen her as a white redhead. I'll look it up.
If so, then they need to shake her up more often.
I bet most people playing Zelda games don't care or know that it's technically a different person in each game. Zelda is still Zelda and Link is still Link. People of color deserve to have their own characters with their own stories, not just shoehorned into existing roles to fill some sort of diversity quota.
Think of it like Peter Parker Spider-Man and Miles Morales Spider-Man. Peter Parker is just a funny white guy, whose role could be done by anyone, of any race. There could have been a black Peter Parker, but instead Miles Morales was created, with a different personality and style that both acknowledges and takes pride in his race. Now Peter Parker and Miles Morales are pretty much interchangeable as to who "Spider-Man" is. The same could be done with Zelda and a new Princess, or Link and a new hero.
This sorta drives me nuts when it comes to a lot of Japanese media...the insistance of "it's just a tan" is...so WEIRD. I wish they'd commit
It usually implied anyway for anyone who can read between the lines or isnt just looking for some mistakes.
Every minority in some way wins when something changes up the status quo - yeah even black people are the most visible representation of that change, everything adds up.
I will never understand people that dont understand something obvious. Disrupting the status quo is helping everyone, maybe not at the same time or for the same amount...but it helps. But we have obv. still ways to go.