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[Zelda Dungeon] Diversity in Zelda: The Need for a Black Princess Zelda
- Thread starter Neoxon
- Start date
I certainly hope the royal family of Hyrule is not on some Habsburg shit lol. Imagine what Zelda would look like after multiple millennia of inbreeding.
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Well, you also have to remember that as per Skyward Sword, the royal line has the blood/magic of a God coursing through it. They'll protect her from the effects interdimensional inbreeding and the horror of more natural protection against the sun. =P
Believe me, black people in the arab world are considered just as native population as the white one. Be it in the arabic peninsula or north africa.
How exactly would one determine a Latino though? Latinos range from a very wide spectrum of phenotypical features as the are descendant from one or multiple ethnic backgrounds.
On the topic of Zelda being literally not white, I thought it was odd at first and wondered how they were going to suddenly make her black or a poc, then remembered that this is a Zelda game where reincarnation is the name of the game and the only thing Zelda herself represents is the physical incarnation of goddess hylia. By lore, and by how the series has gone throughout the ages, with the exception of Ganon, Zelda has had and has done so in multiple instances to be any shape, form, style and grace. Her being East Asian, West European, Sub-Saharan African, Middle Eastern, Pacific Islander, etc in phenotype for a while now. The only thing that remains true is that she would be the reincarnation of the Goddess of Hylia and is the princess of Hyrule that holds the Triforce of Wisdom and will seal the evil that is Ganondorf, one who holds the triforce of power, who is a male Gerudo that is born once every 100 years in tagteam with the legendary Swordsman who is able to weild the evil sealing sword of darkness and holds the triforce of courage.
That is really the entire lore of Zelda series and makes no real mention aside from the sex if the character I think and the race being Gerudo and Hylian? But in the case of Hylian, there is no reason that there can't be mixing of races. We see that in Botw with the terry town quest where a Hylian and a Gerudo marry, unsure if they can have kids but not sure if that's relevant in the case of human like creatures.
On top of that, a new race can emerge and be a split from another, as evident from the Zoras and the Rito having a common ancestor. And geographical changes can have an influence on this too as mentioned and we've seen it in Wind Waker. We see the darker skinned folks who I cannot remember the village, but they are a village near the beach in BOTW. I'd also like to mention that every princess of hyrule is named Zelda regardless if they are the reincarnation or not, Zelda's mother was named Zelda and it is Hyrule Kingdom royal tradition that the daughter be named Zelda even if the Queen is named Zelda. So A Zelda over the ages of a more diverse population in Hyrule isn't really off putting, actually the lore itself lends to make it easier to do this.
So, with putting the whole Zelda series into perspective and how it is intentionally made flexible and easily moldeable to fit a story irrespective of how the character looks, a black Zelda is not really a far fetched concept and any Zelda fan should recognize this.
The series has shoved the idea that Zelda is more like a "concept" as if Link than an actual defined person
Zelda is really in a unique position as franchise that making link a girl or zelda black would make complete sense and be very logical within the rules of it all. "this generation the princess of hyrule reincarnated as a black woman and the hero's spirit as a girl" and thats it. Its all the explanation they would need.
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Miss Algeria beauty queen Khadija Ben Hamou hits back at racist abuse
Slurs about Miss Algeria's skin colour, nose and lips were made by users on Facebook and Twitter.
www.bbc.com
Suuuure, Algeria is magically exempt from racism
You would have to ask Latino members for the specifics. My post was a show of solidarity. A series of games where the Zelda formula is applied in different cultures would be swell.
The never-ending cycle of reincarnation linking the fates of people across generations is the most interesting aspect of Zelda lore. Nintendo should absolutely explore the power of re-telling the legend not only in different times but also different places and cultures.
Hah true. The funny thing is Ganondorf isn't even that dark, he is still rather light skin and is probably never gonna be as black as me for example.
While we are at it, I would love to see Ganon as a white person and Zelda/Link being as dark skin as possible.
Darker skinned guys being the bad guys is really one of the easiest and first things they should tackle. Especially in a fantasy setting, there would be so much potential.
Getting bad flash backs to the rumor that we could potentially have a female Link in BotW and 'fans' going ape shit over how it goes against "LORE".
Time traveling elves fighting against a giant pig man is believable, but the Triforce of Courage placing itself on a woman or black character in the country's time of need is where people draw the line? And now we have people believing that there wouldn't have been ANY foreigners marrying into the Royal Family during it's entire timespan (in any of the timelines) that could warrant a darker Zelda?
Time traveling elves fighting against a giant pig man is believable, but the Triforce of Courage placing itself on a woman or black character in the country's time of need is where people draw the line? And now we have people believing that there wouldn't have been ANY foreigners marrying into the Royal Family during it's entire timespan (in any of the timelines) that could warrant a darker Zelda?
what the actually fuck? dont speak for us.. especailly if u gonnaopen up with that stupidity
i'll fix it for u
"Of course the writer has the whitest name ive ever seen.
Us GAMERZ dont think that way, we want more of us in games but not just "paint" change..."
Jesus I didn't remember that.
But yeah I think anyone arguing against this is being too obvious, considering Link is a different person every time. (is the Hero of Time just sort of an essence thing or is it the same soul in each Link? I have no idea)
I would too. I think approaching things from that angle would lead to better writing of too; a more diverse Zelda world will naturally have better representation throughout its entire cast rather than this top down approach to discussion of deciding to change the lead characters and then coming up with post hoc lore justifications for it.
Even better would be to have actual POC coming up with the world and characters but we all know that's not gonna happen.
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I actually mentioned this in the OP.I am going this you don't want nintendo to do this because they already did once and well
may i remind you they literally whitewashed her in the same game
User warned: inappropriate whataboutism
I've noticed this a lot lately and especially here. It's always black vs white and never Asian, Latino, brown, or American Indian.
AFAIK, these dudes were said to be "close to the Gods" according to Twilight Princess lore or something
Just sayin'
Godly relations do not protect one from uh, that, it seems.
Spot on. This is my point exactly I feel it's a very lazy method of embracing diversity by painting existing characters into a different colour.
While at first reading the article I thought it'd be nicer if Nintendo just outright created an IP with way more PoC presence, after reading the context of the Zelda saga (I've only touched some of the games superficially, so I don't really know how it works) it seems like there's some kind of incarnation/timeline machanism?
Then sure, why not? I think it would be exciting for fans and casuals alive from different minorities to see themselves represented as the 2 main characters of such a big franchise (since we are talking about Link and Zelda here; I am not knowledgeable about other characters in the saga), and why not, on the side Nintendo could work on an IP that had more diverse characters.
If this was a different saga I think it'd be cooler to just outright have a new IP. But it seems to make a lot of sense with The Legend of Zelda and there is nothing really stopping them lore-wise.
If *that* could include gender and sexual minorities in the main cast, that would be nice too; although I don't really expect that.. but who knows :D
Then sure, why not? I think it would be exciting for fans and casuals alive from different minorities to see themselves represented as the 2 main characters of such a big franchise (since we are talking about Link and Zelda here; I am not knowledgeable about other characters in the saga), and why not, on the side Nintendo could work on an IP that had more diverse characters.
If this was a different saga I think it'd be cooler to just outright have a new IP. But it seems to make a lot of sense with The Legend of Zelda and there is nothing really stopping them lore-wise.
If *that* could include gender and sexual minorities in the main cast, that would be nice too; although I don't really expect that.. but who knows :D
Why does this always have to devolve into pallet swapping an established character?
My skin color is super underrepresented in media. I honestly would feel insulted if they just changed Link's skin color to be similar to my own. Like seriously? You can't spend the time, money, and effort to create a character (god forbid a franchise) on a new protag, you shoehorn my color in by slapping it on an existing character and calling it a day?
I understand that Zelda is a franchise where the characters are more symbols rather than actual characters, and I'd be a LOT warmer to the idea if from the outset, they kept playing with their skin tones, but at this point, at the 11th hour they decide to mix up the skin color? Miss me with that shit, I want to see some effort.
Slow down there chief...
then you know how problematic this could turn out, we could get another tetra, a character who is POC literally whitewashed when she needs to be zelda
This wouldnt make too much sense depending Zeldas are always born into the bloodline of the Royal Family and not Simple Reincarnations. As Zeldas Mother is also a Zelda. Even in BOTW and AoC its shown that her mother was gifted in awakening her abilities.
That being said, it would also have to be introduced that the Royal Family suddenly started diversifying their relationships until. So she would have to be half black or after generations go that route. Either way, a lot going on. I dont think I buy the hate for Tetras skin change much. Some people can tan and also tans fade. Sure it was "instant" but i dont get the hate.
That being said, it would also have to be introduced that the Royal Family suddenly started diversifying their relationships until. So she would have to be half black or after generations go that route. Either way, a lot going on. I dont think I buy the hate for Tetras skin change much. Some people can tan and also tans fade. Sure it was "instant" but i dont get the hate.
What are those things? Certainly not Zelda creations in a game called Twilight Princess WHICH I DO NOT RECOGNIZE THE EXISTENCE OF.AFAIK, these dudes were said to be "close to the Gods" according to Twilight Princess lore or something
Just sayin'
Godly relations do not protect one from uh, that, it seems.
I somewhat agree here. Make new characters and make them black is the way, I feel.
If the developers showed a pattern of making each incarnation of Link and Zelda drastically different from one another and fully went in on the "reincarnation" angle I might be more for it, but they clearly have a set "look" that every one of them adapts which is why (amongst other reasons) I don't consider Link an "avatar" more than a character. Tetra was sadly a bait and switch so you wouldn't immediately recognize her as Zelda.
I'd rather see original creations and stories intended to be for black representation from the onset than the one "version" of this character as black so they can't go "there's your diversity" while they can cash in on it as a trend and never repeat it in any future title, whereas if the character is made specifically to represent black people that will just be the character.
There is a reason why some IP's and brands might benefit from a race swap diversity move and its purely based on popularity and the overall acceptance of general audiences.
Just think about it for a second.
Theres alot of patronizing goin on in the thread and virtue signaling. But lets be 100% honest and real for a sec.... If we actually did get that New IP with a Black Lead, id very much argue that not even half of yall in this thread right now would even be interested or pick it up, despite what you saying/posting.
We can simply look at existing history to support this behavior. Look at how Hollywood treated black films for the longest. They were considered " Black Films" not films for general audiences. Right off the bat, they were considered to have a smaller audience pull simply by containing black characters as the majority of the cast
There is a very real paradox that happens within this discussion. When it comes to socialization, Black People in the US have been forced to socialize with White People and their entertainment. We've seen nothing but White Characters since the inception of entertainment and Hollywood, and the few bits of diversity that we ever got were terribly tinted with bigotry and white racial bias until as of recent modern times. This is why some of these IPs and Brands are so big to begin with... There was no other choice of the matter
Luke was always going to be a white man. Captain America was damn sure going to be a white man. James Bond was always going to be nothing but a white man. There was 0 discussion in the matter creatively and Black Audiences were always going to accept it because thats the way shit is.
However, White People don't have to consume their entertainment this way. There is an endless amount of content supporting white leads and identity that entirely lack diversity. If a White viewer doesnt want to particiapte with diverse entertainment. They legitimately don't have to. They can always opt out, there is always more content available. The same cannot be said for the reverse. At All.
Marvel and Star Wars are always going to be huge brands because at their time of inception, all those characters were going to be white without debate. Everyone was going to accept this, it was the status quo. Imagine yourself to be in the rooms at the time of creation of these IP's. Imagine yourself suggesting some of these main characters be black.... or gasp.... even a black woman....
What reaction do you expect to have? Laughed out the room? You bet.
These brands have decades of attachment and success associated with them. tried and true products, so of course there would be backlash on messing with the "identity" of the brand however there still is a place for it
Because if we want to be realistic and truthful about our society. Diversity will have to be injected into long standing popular brands AND supplemented with New IP in order to find true acceptance because if it simply gets relegated to New IP, it will simply be ignored by white audiences.
This will be even more exacerbated in the Gaming World, because "gamers" tend to be troglodytes on race to begin with
That Black New IP yall speak about supporting? Here's the criticisms:
"I cant identify with the MC, it turned me off"
"The game itself sucks, not gonna support a shitty game just because the lead is black"
"I know nothing about this game, Ill wait till it has some buzz before I give it attention"
"I've never heard of the development team etc etc etc"
"Its not the genre of gameplay I enjoy"
Every excuse in the book pulled out to justify why they shouldnt give a damn. Would you expect to hear any of those complaints for a Nintendo made black Zelda game? Probably not, blows all those excuses out the water.
Just think about it for a second.
Theres alot of patronizing goin on in the thread and virtue signaling. But lets be 100% honest and real for a sec.... If we actually did get that New IP with a Black Lead, id very much argue that not even half of yall in this thread right now would even be interested or pick it up, despite what you saying/posting.
We can simply look at existing history to support this behavior. Look at how Hollywood treated black films for the longest. They were considered " Black Films" not films for general audiences. Right off the bat, they were considered to have a smaller audience pull simply by containing black characters as the majority of the cast
There is a very real paradox that happens within this discussion. When it comes to socialization, Black People in the US have been forced to socialize with White People and their entertainment. We've seen nothing but White Characters since the inception of entertainment and Hollywood, and the few bits of diversity that we ever got were terribly tinted with bigotry and white racial bias until as of recent modern times. This is why some of these IPs and Brands are so big to begin with... There was no other choice of the matter
Luke was always going to be a white man. Captain America was damn sure going to be a white man. James Bond was always going to be nothing but a white man. There was 0 discussion in the matter creatively and Black Audiences were always going to accept it because thats the way shit is.
However, White People don't have to consume their entertainment this way. There is an endless amount of content supporting white leads and identity that entirely lack diversity. If a White viewer doesnt want to particiapte with diverse entertainment. They legitimately don't have to. They can always opt out, there is always more content available. The same cannot be said for the reverse. At All.
Marvel and Star Wars are always going to be huge brands because at their time of inception, all those characters were going to be white without debate. Everyone was going to accept this, it was the status quo. Imagine yourself to be in the rooms at the time of creation of these IP's. Imagine yourself suggesting some of these main characters be black.... or gasp.... even a black woman....
What reaction do you expect to have? Laughed out the room? You bet.
These brands have decades of attachment and success associated with them. tried and true products, so of course there would be backlash on messing with the "identity" of the brand however there still is a place for it
Because if we want to be realistic and truthful about our society. Diversity will have to be injected into long standing popular brands AND supplemented with New IP in order to find true acceptance because if it simply gets relegated to New IP, it will simply be ignored by white audiences.
This will be even more exacerbated in the Gaming World, because "gamers" tend to be troglodytes on race to begin with
That Black New IP yall speak about supporting? Here's the criticisms:
"I cant identify with the MC, it turned me off"
"The game itself sucks, not gonna support a shitty game just because the lead is black"
"I know nothing about this game, Ill wait till it has some buzz before I give it attention"
"I've never heard of the development team etc etc etc"
"Its not the genre of gameplay I enjoy"
Every excuse in the book pulled out to justify why they shouldnt give a damn. Would you expect to hear any of those complaints for a Nintendo made black Zelda game? Probably not, blows all those excuses out the water.
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Oh I'm well aware, & obviously we should expect Nintendo to not repeat the mistakes of the past.
That won't happen, I can bet a Tetra thing won't happen again like that.
especially since I feel Zelda will be Zelda in the beginning and not some other identity.
Zelda's almost always a victim. A more diverse Link would be preferable anyway. I'd still prefer it to be a brand new heroic character.
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She likely won't be the victim in BotW2 from what we've seen.
You can (and should, based on science) extend a royal bloodline by just marrying someone outside of the immediate family. All it takes is for one Zelda across thousands of years of three timelines to just pick a brother, and then would you look at that!
Tell us how white skin has made sense within the narrative of any Zelda games, and then ask yourself why you're applying that standard unequally to non-white skin.
Absolutely. We actually live in the Mushroom Kingdom and those who told you we have trolls and as*holes on twitter and fb just lied to you.Miss Algeria beauty queen Khadija Ben Hamou hits back at racist abuse
Slurs about Miss Algeria's skin colour, nose and lips were made by users on Facebook and Twitter.www.bbc.com
Suuuure, Algeria is magically exempt from racism
They could do "The Legend of Zelda" set/based/inspired by a variety of cultures but they're pretty set in their ways when it comes to these characters. Kinda like Pokémon. I'm surprised we even got the Alola region tbh
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You don't really have it make sense within the overarching narrative beyond "One of this Zelda's parents is black".
I'm for it 100%. IMO i know they want everyone to "see themselves" in the characters but in all the versions of Hyrule it's stands to reason that at some point, Link or Zelda would be brown/black. There are darker skinned characters in the universe. Imo even letting players adjust their look would be a step in the right direction
Read what between the lines? In the case of Zelda or general fantasy things diversity for diversities sake isas long as a creator takes account of what happens when you change a characters race. I.E. it's probably not a good idea to have a fantasy setting with your slave being portrayed by a black person (this isn't the best example but it's one of them).
Finn is what happens when you do not think through a blind casting. If Finn were a white man as he were likely originally envisioned his portrayal and role in the movie would be less controversial.
Frankly the concept of having to make sure a black character fits rings to me of making constant excuses to exclude black folks from things.
this is nintendo and they technically did it twice already
they can do it a third or forth time
it did happen again, just not in zelda
Because it's the biggest contrast we have ...usually when Black People get something done other minorities somehow benefit from it sooner or later. If you can sell a white audience on a black representation they are more likely to accept other minorities as well.
It's pretty much the go big or go home of representation discussions.
It's also more difficult to get black representation in many forms of media outside of the stereotypical shit we have been fed to for ages.
PS. Well and any other writer is able to write up the same of article for other minorities of they feel like it. People always complain about black people bringing up black issues and fighting got representation when no one else is gonna do it for them. Especially when it comes to Black Women.
If they did ever do this I'd consider it more of a "sure why not" point rather than something that'd need explicit addressing. It only ever annoyed me in Wind Waker where her entire character did a 180 mid-game. I don't see why Zelda can't at least have a skin tone similar to Impa given her heritage in at least two of the games. Nonetheless I'd rather they tackle these things at the roots, and the article seems to approach the conversation rather explicitly around an America-specific lens when these things matter everywhere.
I'm talking Zelda team.this is nintendo and they technically did it twice already
they can do it a third or forth time
it did happen again
monolithsoft is a part of the new zelda team since skyward sword
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Granted, that was MonolithSoft. But they also help out with Zelda, so I get the concern.this is nintendo and they technically did it twice already
they can do it a third or forth time
it did happen again, just not in zelda
Nah it's 2021. Most of us demand good representation not just representation.
It's okay if you feel different but I won't change my mind on that because I've witnessed to much fuckery. I'm not here for token including just so that some suits can market the content to more audiences when the charachter ends up being an afterthought.
Sure in the end you take what you can get because you don't have direct influence on it. But I'm not applauding anyone for the bare minimum when it took you already so damn long. If you arrive late to the party to better come well prepared.
But in all fairness, this is not really a paint change. I highlighted it in an earlier post (#157) that Zelda itself can't really be a result of paint change since the game established that the lore of the series is really fluid and dynamic. She reincarnates and that is the most definitive aspect of her, she ends up always being Zelda, the reincarnation of Goddess Hylia.
She can honestly be anything and the series opened the door to accepting her as anything that is of royal blood. Like it would not be out of pocket or place to be not white, games and comments from devs established that they don't really have to look one way. Just follow the lore and still make sense.