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Most pointless DCEU death?

  • Mercy Graves

    Votes: 16 7.7%
  • Jimmy Olsen

    Votes: 142 67.9%
  • Dick Grayson

    Votes: 51 24.4%

  • Total voters
    209

Village

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,809
I actually think Snyder has contempt for the IP, it's the only explanation
Snyder likes watchmen and like many others with watch men the dark knight and simular books, compltely misunderstood the point and the critcisms made and took it as " this is how super heroes should be " and now he's or he was in the directors chair.
 

Lothars

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
9,765
It's evident that he's trying to create a DC Vertigo/DC Black Label Universe under the constraints of a PG13 rating.

Hopefully, the episodic streaming format with HBO Max removes the constraints that would have plagued this had it been a regular theatrical release.
It won't, he will make it just as bad as any of his superhero movies have been.
 

illmatic22

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,557
Super Bowl LII Champions
Yeah he said this a little while back that Dick was the dead Robin. Thankfully that idea along with his others have been thrown out the window. DCEU in a much better place without Snyder.
 

Reym

Member
Jul 15, 2019
2,663
I love that his answer to everything is "kill people". Like, there's a time and a place for the tragic death, dude, but generally speaking there's a lot more you can do with characters when they're...y'know...alive.

...not to mention there's no narrative weight to these deaths in his movies. Olsen was just some nameless background character. Who cares? Even if we got his name, most of the audience would likely have little reaction to his death, so why bother with it?

I feel like the point of view of "death is deep" is a little too prevalent.
 

Tavernade

Tavernade
Moderator
Sep 18, 2018
8,632
I could be misremembering, but concerning the poll, Jimmy/Robin's deaths are so poorly handled its entirely possible to not even realize it's a thing that happened, while Mercy was at least a vague character who was brought in to be betrayed and died for literally no reason whatsoever.

The Jimmy Olson thing is kind of the exact reason no one involved creatively should have been involved creatively.
 
Oct 30, 2017
8,967
You know what always annoyed me about this? Why would Bruce leave his costume like this? Did he have no respect for Robin in this universe?

Yes I know the answer is that Snyder is a dumbass but still


Because the part of Snyder's brain that tells him that something is incosistent or doesn't make sense is smaller than the part of his brain that tells him how dope that's gonna look in the trailer.
 

Wingfan19

Layout Designer
Verified
Oct 25, 2017
9,753
Bothell WA
Did anyone even say Jimmy's NAME before they blew him away? I had to look it up later to know it was him
I think he only introduces himself but no one else refers to him by name.
He's never mentioned by name in the Theatrical cut. He does get named in the Ultimate Edition though, so pick your option. Since Dick is never named as the Robin either, there's really no rule that says those are the two that were killed "as presented" to the audience in future movies. So yeah, it's all a big nothing, who cares now?

Wait, MERCY GRAVES died too? When!?
During the Senate bombing. She was played by Tao Okamoto
 

Garlador

Banned
Oct 30, 2017
14,131
The DCEU is/was making some strong strides out of the mire of the Snyder-style films...

Because stuff like this is maddening for all the wrong reasons.

I still can't believe we finally, FINALLY had a Batman/Superman live-action crossover, and it was the total opposite of a celebratory triumph.

And the death of Superman, while an insane marketing ploy in the 90s, was so MEANINGFUL in the comics and carried such significant weight.
main-qimg-1a1fca9d3f6cb3d86ae4d9ce6b4ea87c.webp


The movies had ONE shot to do this story proper justice... and it utterly landed with a wet plop. There may never be another attempt to do this story justice in live action in my lifetime. .

But, yeah, it's just part and parcel to the Synder-verse to see characters like Jimmy and Dick just stamped all. Dick Grayson's an OG. He's been kicking ass since 1940. Crazy to think they've never just had Nightwing proper in a movie before...

Wait, MERCY GRAVES died too? When!?
Lex blew her up at the congressional meeting. No, it doesn't make sense why she was there and why he'd do that.
 

RaySpencer

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,666
The Injustice universe had Damian accidentally kill Dick and take over the mantle of Nightwing after being disowned by Batman.

But that was a darker universe. This is just giving Jason's death to Dick instead, also off-screen and doing absolutely nothing with it.

If they wanna kill Dick, fine, but off screen before anything? fuck that.
 

Z-Beat

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
31,849
He's never mentioned by name in the Theatrical cut. He does get named in the Ultimate Edition though, so pick your option. Since Dick is never named as the Robin either, there's really no rule that says those are the two that were killed "as presented" to the audience in future movies. So yeah, it's all a big nothing, who cares now?
I assumed that Robin was Jason
 

Z-Beat

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
31,849
So did everyone else. Which was fine after the fact. Zack left it vague so they could still play with the characters in case they went ahead with his universe. The only time we find out that it's Dick is from his Vero messages, so again, it's a moot point.
Is it Dick because Joker is Jason?
 

Aprikurt

â–˛ Legend â–˛
Member
Oct 29, 2017
18,782
Honestly it all comes down to the fact that we needed at least one Batfleck solo movie before BVS. They were so keen to blow their team-up load that they completely robbed the film of any impact or build-up because... there was none. They were banking on our recognition of Batman as a character being enough, but Batman has meant many things to many different people throughout the years.

You're going to do a broken, bitter Batman who's lost faith in the system, fine. But you need to earn that. Have a Batman solo film where we see him at his best and brightest, idealistic with Robin in tow. Still grim, but still firmly believing in what he does and who he is. Then, show Robin get killed on screen. However grimly/brutally you want. But the point is, we've seen it then. The audience relates to Batman. The image of the Robin suit means a lot more, because we were there. And we want to see Batman get out of his funk, because we've seen him better.
 

Slayven

Never read a comic in his life
Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
93,140
Snyder likes watchmen and like many others with watch men the dark knight and simular books, compltely misunderstood the point and the critcisms made and took it as " this is how super heroes should be " and now he's or he was in the directors chair.
Watchmen and The Dark Knight Returns have ruin so much
 

excelsiorlef

Bad Praxis
Member
Oct 25, 2017
73,326
We're gonna do this again?

Again... Zack's vision for his universe AT THE TIME was for a 5 movie arc and that was it. He was telling a specific story with a specific version of these characters and world.

So yes, people were going to die that wouldn't normally die, like Jimmy Olson or Dick Grayson. This happens in comics ALL THE TIME.

Quote from Zack himself regarding Jimmy


Zack was also going to introduce Carrie Kelly as the new Robin, but he never got the chance.

jvfvhc3od6551.jpg

Seems like a pretty bad idea for a Universe
 

Tavernade

Tavernade
Moderator
Sep 18, 2018
8,632
Honestly it all comes down to the fact that we needed at least one Batfleck solo movie before BVS. They were so keen to blow their team-up load that they completely robbed the film of any impact or build-up because... there was none. They were banking on our recognition of Batman as a character being enough, but Batman has meant many things to many different people throughout the years.

You're going to do a broken, bitter Batman who's lost faith in the system, fine. But you need to earn that. Have a Batman solo film where we see him at his best and brightest, idealistic with Robin in tow. Still grim, but still firmly believing in what he does and who he is. Then, show Robin get killed on screen. However grimly/brutally you want. But the point is, we've seen it then. The audience relates to Batman. The image of the Robin suit means a lot more, because we were there. And we want to see Batman get out of his funk, because we've seen him better.

This really hits at my criticism of the Snyder films. Watchman and Dark Knight Returns worked then and work now because I'm comics superheroes have a long history that is overall NOT dark and twisted and realistic, so subverting that has power. Superheroes in movies being dark and twisted and realistic isn't unusual. Going straight into a story like that without subverting misunderstands part of the reason those stories work in the first place. Shazam being actually about children who know about heroes and become them seems more subversive than any of the Snyder films. If you want to make something dark and gritty go for it, but justify it. BvS didn't.
 

OptiveLink

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,079
You look at that Joker and you gotta just ask how he's still alive.
Dumb as hell. You just gotta imagine how awful it was. Terrible. Batman was crushed.
But like, instead of getting to that, imaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaagine.
 

canseesea

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,015
Honestly it all comes down to the fact that we needed at least one Batfleck solo movie before BVS. They were so keen to blow their team-up load that they completely robbed the film of any impact or build-up because... there was none. They were banking on our recognition of Batman as a character being enough, but Batman has meant many things to many different people throughout the years.

You're going to do a broken, bitter Batman who's lost faith in the system, fine. But you need to earn that. Have a Batman solo film where we see him at his best and brightest, idealistic with Robin in tow. Still grim, but still firmly believing in what he does and who he is. Then, show Robin get killed on screen. However grimly/brutally you want. But the point is, we've seen it then. The audience relates to Batman. The image of the Robin suit means a lot more, because we were there. And we want to see Batman get out of his funk, because we've seen him better.


Yeah, one more movie is all we needed. If only there was one more miserable movie in this series, Snyder surely would have figured out how to depict characters that people care about for the first time in his life.
 

Aprikurt

â–˛ Legend â–˛
Member
Oct 29, 2017
18,782
Yeah, one more movie is all we needed. If only there was one more miserable movie in this series, Snyder surely would have figured out how to depict characters that people care about for the first time in his life.
Oh it'd be messy as hell, but it'd at least help explain why we've got a Batman in BvS that acts nothing like Batman and is a dick.
This really hits at my criticism of the Snyder films. Watchman and Dark Knight Returns worked then and work now because I'm comics superheroes have a long history that is overall NOT dark and twisted and realistic, so subverting that has power. Superheroes in movies being dark and twisted and realistic isn't unusual. Going straight into a story like that without subverting misunderstands part of the reason those stories work in the first place. Shazam being actually about children who know about heroes and become them seems more subversive than any of the Snyder films. If you want to make something dark and gritty go for it, but justify it. BvS didn't.
Also, DKR (and Watchmen) are "end of the road" in tone. They're meant to be a grim dystopian vibe. Meanwhile they were trying to use BvS, a very loose stylistic adaptation of DKR, to kick off an extended universe (by also killing off one of their biggest characters in another very loose very bad adaptation of one of DC's darker storylines).

It's like they took Death of Superman, took DKR and just awkwardly sandwiched them together completely out of context.
 

Watchtower

Member
Oct 27, 2017
11,652
We're gonna do this again?

Again... Zack's vision for his universe AT THE TIME was for a 5 movie arc and that was it. He was telling a specific story with a specific version of these characters and world.

So yes, people were going to die that wouldn't normally die, like Jimmy Olson or Dick Grayson. This happens in comics ALL THE TIME.

Quote from Zack himself regarding Jimmy


Zack was also going to introduce Carrie Kelly as the new Robin, but he never got the chance.

jvfvhc3od6551.jpg

Clearly was not WBs plan, considering their general marketing of the DCEU, all of the other movie pitches that got tossed around at the time, and how they responded with and since Whedon's Justice League. Their plan was always to have some kind of cinematic universe to rival Marvel's. So they signed up for this plan thinking after this decon-recon Elseworlds tale they'd somehow rejigger it back into something more traditional. Or they didn't, they trusted Snyder blindly and were going to wind up gobsmacked at some point with the direction, probably when Justice League pt. 1 pulled off an Infinity War at movie 4.

Either way you cut it it makes WB's DC universe attempts extremely haphazard, to such a degree that Disney's blind-run attempt at Star Wars looks calculated in comparison.
 

excelsiorlef

Bad Praxis
Member
Oct 25, 2017
73,326
That's what I'm trying to say here... It WASN'T going to be a universe at first. It was going to be a 5 movies. And then they'd start again. They were trying to be different than what Marvel was doing and WB changed course mid way through which fucked everything up.

Yeah I don't really buy that, that WB was just gonna give Snyder this 5 picture story and then do a universe.
 

canseesea

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,015
Oh it'd be messy as hell, but it'd at least help explain why we've got a Batman in BvS that acts nothing like Batman and is a dick.

That's actually fair. At the heart of a lot of the problems with these movies is how they simultaneously rely on you assuming this is the same character you know from other media while also insisting that you treat the character as a new entity separate from the versions you saw previously.
 

Wingfan19

Layout Designer
Verified
Oct 25, 2017
9,753
Bothell WA
Yeah I don't really buy that, that WB was just gonna give Snyder this 5 picture story and then do a universe.
Well we'll never know unless WB execs or Zack goes into more detail. But I wouldn't be shocked if WB's original plans were to do a bunch of mini arcs with new actors playing the roles every 5-7 years to avoid the "how do we keep Cavil as Superman for 10 movies and 20 years and he doesn't age?" problem.
 

Aprikurt

â–˛ Legend â–˛
Member
Oct 29, 2017
18,782
That's actually fair. At the heart of a lot of the problems with these movies is how they simultaneously rely on you assuming this is the same character you know from other media while also insisting that you treat the character as a new entity separate from the versions you saw previously.
Which works fine with comic runs that can be alternate universes/different versions/one-offs/what-ifs and it's fine, but when you're trying to create a consistent universe it's just messy.
 

canseesea

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,015
Which works fine with comic runs that can be alternate universes/different versions/one-offs/what-ifs and it's fine, but when you're trying to create a consistent universe it's just messy.

And even then it works when (A) you know exactly when, where, and how the stories diverged and (B) somebody interested and capable of telling a good story in the first place is in charge.
 

Spring-Loaded

Member
Oct 27, 2017
19,904
Just as a general reminder: for anyone when angered/frustrated by Snyderverse stuff that's dredged up periodically, just watch the animated film version of this

Batman-Superman-Adv-Worlds-Finest-v1-1-FRONT-649x1024.jpg


and then watch each dcau series after to see characters get their due
 

justin haines

Banned
Nov 27, 2018
1,791
I'm so glad I don't care about any of his shit except watchmen. Such a train wreck.

Poor guy lost his daughter tho so I wish him well in future endeavours but BvS was a trash fire that can't be put out to this day!
 

Deleted member 6173

User-requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
2,088
Remember in Batman Begins when Batman gave his binoculars to a kid and people thought he could possibly be the next robin
 

Mars People

Comics Council 2020
Member
Oct 25, 2017
18,196
Just as a general reminder: for anyone when angered/frustrated by Snyderverse stuff that's dredged up periodically, just watch the animated film version of this

Batman-Superman-Adv-Worlds-Finest-v1-1-FRONT-649x1024.jpg


and then watch each dcau series after to see characters get their due
This movie is so much better than BvS.
It feels like it actually respects its characters and was maybe by someone who unstands them.