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Dancrane212

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,962
Them working on hardware that was never supposed to play them isn't really preserving them anymore than they already are preserved, it's just making more easily available in 2022.

Add to the fact that you can easily duplicate and transfer the installed Xbox/360 BC titles between consoles. If you have the disk to act as the 'key' they'd still be playable even if the downloads were removed. At least on Xbox One, not sure if Series S/X need that config check—something I'll want to check at some point.
 

Nif

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,716
BC games needing downloads isn't a preservation problem. You can still play those on the consoles they were built for. I do agree about the incomplete games on discs. Once they finally cut off One consoles, I think that'll change until the games themselves are too large for discs.
 

SCUMMbag

Prophet of Truth - Chicken Chaser
Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,578
I don't think it's right to conflate "we want you to play your old games" with "we want you to play your old games under any circumstance possible".

When dealing with a closed platform, you're agreeing to do things on their terms.

The way Xbox does things is for the most part fine for me but for any games that I want to have access to in perpetuity, I'm buying it on PC.
 
Oct 27, 2017
12,978
Xbox: "Hey, we did this cool thing and you can play a lot of old games you bought 10+ years ago on the Series X. Your saves work, too."

"AH HA, but now I'm entitled to all these games working offline without any checks. Xbox, you need to change everything you did to get to this point so that your system magically works without internet checks. Really bad preservation problem for these games that were never supposed to be playable 10+ years later on current consoles in the first place."
Perfect.
 

Pancracio17

▲ Legend ▲
Avenger
Oct 29, 2017
18,758
Requiring online isnt a problem due to how MS has structured their online store. Selling 360 ganes on the Series X store instead of having a seperate store per generation lets you go the steam route where 20 year old games are still avaliable because theres no reason to take them down (unlike say, Nintendo shutting the Wii U and 3DS stores down because they are not in use anymore).
 
Oct 29, 2017
7,500
It's not a preservation issue. If Xbox turned off their servers tomorrow or force updated everyone's Series X to remove the BC capabilities those games would all still be completely playable on their original hardware - the OG Xbox, 360 and Xbox One - without needing the Internet.

Them working on hardware that was never supposed to play them isn't really preserving them anymore than they already are preserved, it's just making more easily available in 2022.

If they stopped 360s and Xbox One consoles from being able to buy and play these games then that would be a problem. But as long as they can all still run them without Internet checks then we're good. Series X BC is just a bonus and, I think from where most are sitting, the constantly updated and constantly improved BC solution on Xbox consoles have had far more pros than cons.

You hit on what doesn't sit right with me about these kind of critiques. Microsoft provides these backwards compatibility features that are a cool bonus feature of the new console. "Well the BC solution isn't absolutely ideal and unlimited because of X, Y, and Z." Well... okay? That may be true but it's not a preservation problem. Access hasn't been taken away, in fact it's been expanded.
 

Bobbyleejones

Banned
Aug 25, 2019
2,581
These game update files are probably gonna be on a website soon enough. With that all you need to do is download and apply on an external drive. Additionally have people been able to make copies of their game installs in apc for an Xbox console before?
 

Lime Blockade

Member
Aug 4, 2018
417
It's not a preservation issue. If Xbox turned off their servers tomorrow or force updated everyone's Series X to remove the BC capabilities those games would all still be completely playable on their original hardware - the OG Xbox, 360 and Xbox One - without needing the Internet.

Them working on hardware that was never supposed to play them isn't really preserving them anymore than they already are preserved, it's just making more easily available in 2022.

If they stopped 360s and Xbox One consoles from being able to buy and play these games then that would be a problem. But as long as they can all still run them without Internet checks then we're good. Series X BC is just a bonus and, I think from where most are sitting, the constantly updated and constantly improved BC solution on Xbox consoles have had far more pros than cons.

Couldn't have said it better myself. The issue isn't preservation, it's accessibility. As well, all the hurdles to make these games accessible on current gen hardware are mistaken as DRM even though they're nothing more than just technical workarounds to make these games accessible. Like you stated, at the end of the day my OG Xbox and 360 discs will still work on their respective consoles regardless of what happens with the Series consoles.
 

gothi

Prophet of Truth
Member
Jun 23, 2020
4,433
In general I'm quite supportive of some of the things raised in the video but there's a couple of things that bother me:

Misrepresenting the situation with the Home console setting. MVG did a similar thing in their video on this, I'm not sure why people can't just be forthright about how it works. Is it really that confusing to people?
I assume the unspoken scenario they were using in this video was a completely offline console trying to play games they don't have offline licences for, which mandated a change of Home console setting, yet they have to go online to do that and if they can do that then they could have simply played the game without needing to change the Home setting. Happy to be corrected if that wasn't the scenario.

Insinuating piracy at Microsoft is a key part of Xbox history. The source they used said they put a PS1 disc in an emulator and it worked. That's not piracy. How many times do we have to go over the fact that emulators themselves aren't illegal or an act of software piracy.
I couldn't find any source that suggested it wasn't a legitimate PS1 disc, does anybody have a source for that they can share?

Claims that a lot of Xbox discs don't contain full game data but only talks about the two we know of (I think one of the CoD games is the others with this issue?). If it's as big a problem as insinuated you're going to have to source more than 2 games. Explain if this is a blip or a genuine large scale problem. Conversations on here suggest it's less than a handful of games. Something to keep an eye on certainly but it doesn't appear to be at the scale they suggest it is.
There's no need to exaggerate how widespread this is, you diminish the point you're making if you do. Be honest, if it's only 3 games then call that out and inform folks its not a big issue right now but something to keep a watch on. If it's 200 games then list the biggest offenders so people can complain to the publishers.

Rightfully called out the confusion about Smart Delivery discs that contain only the Xbox One version of a game but blames Microsoft for this when it's a publisher decision. It's also a problem that's going away (slowly) and before it does we are likely to see discs that contain Series X code instead of Xbox One.
Missed opportunity to talk about this in more detail and not clear if it was a lack of knowledge or something else behind not covering it.

All in all a real shame as there's some genuine issues here like the mandatory activation of the consoles and confusing boxes.
 

PMA

Alt account / Attempted to circumvent ban with alt
Banned
Sep 13, 2021
257
Xbox: "Hey, we did this cool thing and you can play a lot of old games you bought 10+ years ago on the Series X. Your saves work, too."

"AH HA, but now I'm entitled to all these games working offline without any checks. Xbox, you need to change everything you did to get to this point so that your system magically works without internet checks. Really bad preservation problem for these games that were never supposed to be playable 10+ years later on current consoles in the first place."

I think a lot of the complaints about online checks for BC are overblown. However as a counter to this many people are pointing it out because a lot of Xbox BC proponents are acting like Microsoft is preserving the louvre here and doing this insanely altruistic measure. These checks show that like anything it's a smart and savvy business move imo. Also it shows not to overhype these things! If the argument with Xbox BC is it's amazing and Sony suck for having games "stuck" on ps3, and then someone points out an issue with Xbox and the response is "lol stop whining you can play it on the original console" I mean… you can see the hypocracy.


Anyway what I'm saying is most of this as usual comes from dumb console warring!
 

GamerJM

Member
Nov 8, 2017
15,628
It's a little odd to me to single Microsoft out for problems with game preservation, when tons of Xbox and Xbox 360 games play on their current consoles and you can't say that about Gamecube/Wii games on Switch and PS2/PS3 games on PS5. 🧐 Like, yes, you need an internet connection, but you can't play those discs on other consoles at all, so...

The difference is that if you still own a Gamecube, Wii, PS2, and PS3, you should be able to play the games you originally bought for those consoles with no issue. I should know, because I do that all the time. Meanwhile, the original Xbox, a console which relied more heavily on online, had retail games like the Halo 2 Map Pack and Counter-Strike that relied on online for their value and are a lot less meaningful now than they were at release. The later you go with generations, the more you'll see this become an issue, though it hasn't come up as much yet because we're not far away for it to really become an issue. This is what is meant by preservation.

Now, it remains to be seen how this will all be a problem in our lifetimes. It's totally possible Microsoft could be so good at supporting legacy online for current games that it actually outlives, like, current Switch hardware being able to turn on and work. But a lot of physical Switch games function just fine without an internet connection, and if stuff like the NES and Atari 2600 are any indication those cartridges could last at least half a lifetime.
 

Trup1aya

Literally a train safety expert
Member
Oct 25, 2017
21,356
The difference is that if you still own a Gamecube, Wii, PS2, and PS3, you should be able to play the games you originally bought for those consoles with no issue. I should know, because I do that all the time. Meanwhile, the original Xbox, a console which relied more heavily on online, had retail games like the Halo 2 Map Pack and Counter-Strike that relied on online for their value and are a lot less meaningful now than they were at release. The later you go with generations, the more you'll see this become an issue, though it hasn't come up as much yet because we're not far away for it to really become an issue. This is what is meant by preservation.

Now, it remains to be seen how this will all be a problem in our lifetimes. It's totally possible Microsoft could be so good at supporting legacy online for current games that it actually outlives, like, current Switch hardware being able to turn on and work. But a lot of physical Switch games function just fine without an internet connection, and if stuff like the NES and Atari 2600 are any indication those cartridges could last at least half a lifetime.

This sounds nonsensical to me.

You can still play Halo 2 on your OG Xbox AND use all of the multiplayer maps.

Rarely when people talk about "preservation" are they talking about the fact that publishers won't host online multiplayer servers eternally.

Halo 2 is "preserved" in the MCC, which is available on more platforms than the original Halo 2 and Halo 2 map pack. Includes all of the MP content AND extra content, and servers are live.
 

GamerJM

Member
Nov 8, 2017
15,628
This sounds nonsensical to me.

You can still play Halo 2 on your OG Xbox AND use all of the multiplayer maps.

Rarely when people talk about "preservation" are they talking about the fact that publishers won't host online multiplayer servers eternally.

Sure, that wasn't a perfect example, but the better examples are stuff like Destiny 1 probably going offline in a decade which hasn't happened yet. My point was you can't play Halo 2's intended online mode without homebrew, and even then the community isn't the same.
 

Trup1aya

Literally a train safety expert
Member
Oct 25, 2017
21,356
Sure, that wasn't a perfect example, but the better examples are stuff like Destiny 1 probably going offline in a decade which hasn't happened yet. My point was you can't play Halo 2's intended online mode without homebrew, and even then the community isn't the same.

The Halo2 community wouldn't be the same regardless because Halo 2 came out almost 18 years ago, and the community has largely moved on to other games…which is why the original multiplayer servers are offline.

Microsoft's ecosystem can't be blamed for the existence of online only multiplayer games. There's much to be said about Destiny's "preservation", as there's already been content removed from the game that is no longer available… but that game was billed as something that would evolve over time.
 

GamerJM

Member
Nov 8, 2017
15,628
The Halo2 community wouldn't be the same regardless because Halo 2 came out almost 18 years ago, and the community has largely moved on to other games…which is why the original multiplayer servers are offline.

Microsoft's ecosystem can't be blamed for the existence of online only multiplayer games. There's much to be said about Destiny's "preservation", as there's already been content removed from the game that is no longer available… but that game was billed as something that would evolve over time.

I guess the game being billed as something that would evolve over time makes it a worse example, but the point was that there are games you won't be able to buy and play on current platforms in a decade, some of those single player.

Actually a much better example of what I'm trying to get across are the Xbox Live Arcade games for the original Xbox, like Marble Blast Gold and Bejeweled. These are no longer purchasable, and are single player games that were not marketed as being live experiences.
 

Beary Jams

Member
Nov 5, 2017
447
Portland, OR
I mean a system wide emulator that plays those games natively from the disc, no downloads needed. The Series should be powerful enough to do that, right? I mean they don't have to have to put enhancements for as long compatibility is high. Maybe begin with high compatibility then start working on enhancing specific games.

Idk about something that doesn't require any kind of downloads, but this was in essence how backwards compatibility worked on the 360 as far as I know. Pretty sure it was just downloading regular emu updates anytime you had a game that just got added to the list and then anything on the list as of that last update just worked fine from the disc.
 

Lime Blockade

Member
Aug 4, 2018
417
Sure, that wasn't a perfect example, but the better examples are stuff like Destiny 1 probably going offline in a decade which hasn't happened yet. My point was you can't play Halo 2's intended online mode without homebrew, and even then the community isn't the same.
Your argument doesn't make sense regardless of the example you used. The GameCube has Phantasy Star Online, with the online portion now defunct. The PS2 has Final Fantasy XI which is now defunct (alongside the 360 version). Games have multiplayer components that go defunct on all platforms, so why single out just Microsoft? In Microsoft's case they were the only ones with a unified network for online gaming with Xbox Live, compared to games on the PS2 or GC where the developers/publishers had to use their own networking solutions.

Actually a much better example of what I'm trying to get across are the Xbox Live Arcade games for the original Xbox, like Marble Blast Gold and Bejeweled. These are no longer purchasable.

Sure but that's always going to be a problem with digital only games, they can get delisted for several reasons. Again that's not something specific to Microsoft on the Xbox, however what Nintendo did with the Wii and are about to do with the Wii U / 3DS and Sony attempted to do with the PS3 and Vita and pull down the entire online store front; effectively delisting all digital only titles is another thing.
 

GamerJM

Member
Nov 8, 2017
15,628
Your argument doesn't make sense regardless of the example you used. The GameCube has Phantasy Star Online, with the online portion now defunct. The PS2 has Final Fantasy XI which is now defunct (alongside the 360 version). Games have multiplayer components that go defunct on all platforms, so why single out just Microsoft? In Microsoft's case they were the only ones with a unified network for online gaming with Xbox Live, compared to games on the PS2 or GC where the developers/publishers had to use their own networking solutions.



Sure but that's always going to be a problem with digital only games, they can get delisted for several reasons. Again that's not something specific to Microsoft on the Xbox, however what Nintendo did with the Wii and are about to do with the Wii U / 3DS and Sony attempted to do with the PS3 and Vita and pull down the entire online store front; effectively delisting all digital only titles is another thing.

Actually, I could have used FF11 or PSO too. The point of the video in the OP isn't singling out OG Xbox Microsoft for this, it's singling out current Microsoft for releasing physical games that might not be very usable in 20-30 years if Series X's online infrastructure is no longer supported.
 

Trup1aya

Literally a train safety expert
Member
Oct 25, 2017
21,356
I guess the game being billed as something that would evolve over time makes it a worse example, but the point was that there are games you won't be able to buy and play on current platforms in a decade, some of those single player.

Actually a much better example of what I'm trying to get across are the Xbox Live Arcade games for the original Xbox, like Marble Blast Gold and Bejeweled. These are no longer purchasable, and are single player games that were not marketed as being live experiences.

Not for sale is different from not preserved.
 

rochellepaws

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,452
Ireland
This is brought up all the time on these kinds of threads and it's simply not true.
While patching is common, few games have disc releases that require essential day one patches to provide a playable experience.
DoesItPlay had some stats on this I'll try dig it out.
For example I can put my disc copy of guardians of the galaxy in my ps5, never put it online once, and that game will still run fine.


But point of the vid stands, ps5 let's you complete installs from discs when offline, series x doesn't with rare exceptions

EDIT: found it




These tweets need to be pinned on like every discussion about preservation around here. I don't know what games some people are playing but I see so many variations of the claim that most games won't work to any sort of satisfactory level without the day 1 patch. It isn't the case outside of a handful of western companies known for dumping out rushed builds to meet release date.

Maybe those people are just playing CoD and Battlefield all the time and think all games are like that? It's just simply not true.
 

GamerJM

Member
Nov 8, 2017
15,628
Not for sale is different from not preserved.

I think the difference is arbitrary for the general public. There's a lot less value in preserving games if you can't actually buy and play them. I say the same thing about all of the digital games that are going to get delisted from the 3DS and Wii U eShops.
 

Lime Blockade

Member
Aug 4, 2018
417
Actually, I could have used FF11 or PSO too. The point of the video in the OP isn't singling out OG Xbox Microsoft for this, it's singling out current Microsoft for releasing physical games that might not be very usable in 20-30 years if Series X's online infrastructure is no longer supported.
So your beef is with physical copies of games that use "Smart Delivery", which as stated by others is a mess because of publishers and not necessarily Microsoft because publishers are choosing to have the Xbox One version on the disc instead of Series X or both. Which in that case I would agree with you. Microsoft should have done what Sony did and still release two separate SKUs for the PS4 and PS5. However, either version would entitle you to both versions of the game and you are just choosing which version you would rather have on disc. Because so far every single "Smart Delivery" game I've purchased was just the Xbox One version and I've had to download like 40+ gigs to play the Series X version every time.
 

fiendcode

Member
Oct 26, 2017
24,925
Your argument doesn't make sense regardless of the example you used. The GameCube has Phantasy Star Online, with the online portion now defunct. The PS2 has Final Fantasy XI which is now defunct (alongside the 360 version). Games have multiplayer components that go defunct on all platforms, so why single out just Microsoft? In Microsoft's case they were the only ones with a unified network for online gaming with Xbox Live, compared to games on the PS2 or GC where the developers/publishers had to use their own networking solutions.
Forget PS2, GC and Xbox, older consoles even had online components that are now defunct. Going all the way back to Famicom, Game Boy and MegaDrive.
 

Yahsper

Member
Oct 29, 2017
1,525
BC games needing downloads isn't a preservation problem. You can still play those on the consoles they were built for. I do agree about the incomplete games on discs. Once they finally cut off One consoles, I think that'll change until the games themselves are too large for discs.
This.

And Microsoft, with its focus on Azure is the last party I'm worried about when I'm thinking about server access for downloading games.
 

Trup1aya

Literally a train safety expert
Member
Oct 25, 2017
21,356
I think the difference is arbitrary for the general public. There's a lot less value in preserving games if you can't actually buy and play them. I say the same thing about all of the digital games that are going to get delisted from the 3DS and Wii U eShops.

There's a distinct difference between preservation and for sale.

No distributor can reasonably be expected to sell something perpetually.

Preservation, Is the expectation that someone can continue to play something they bought.

People who purchased marble blast, bejeweled or Halo 2 on Xbox can still play them on their Xbox's. Those games are preserved and MS' online policy didn't hinder preservation in any way.
 

GamerJM

Member
Nov 8, 2017
15,628
There's a distinct difference between preservation and for sale.

No distributor can reasonably be expected to sell something perpetually.

Preservation, Is the expectation that someone can continue to play something they bought.

People who purchased marble blast, bejeweled or Halo 2 on Xbox can still play them on their Xbox's. Those games are preserved and MS' online policy didn't hinder preservation in any way.

The key difference is that I can order used copies of Mario Sunshine, FF10, and KotOR on eBay right now and play them on my original consoles. I don't like the thought of a world where you can't do that with the actual Series X releases of games. You won't be able to buy Halo Infinite's Series X version without an online connection if my understanding is correct.

"Preservation" might be semantically incorrect but for my money, the outcome is the same. People new to the hobby will have a harder time discovering and being able to play legacy titles.
 

UraMallas

Member
Nov 1, 2017
18,909
United States
I think a lot of the complaints about online checks for BC are overblown. However as a counter to this many people are pointing it out because a lot of Xbox BC proponents are acting like Microsoft is preserving the louvre here and doing this insanely altruistic measure. These checks show that like anything it's a smart and savvy business move imo. Also it shows not to overhype these things! If the argument with Xbox BC is it's amazing and Sony suck for having games "stuck" on ps3, and then someone points out an issue with Xbox and the response is "lol stop whining you can play it on the original console" I mean… you can see the hypocracy.


Anyway what I'm saying is most of this as usual comes from dumb console warring!
Yes, it's a business move. They can sell old games and so can their partners without any effort at all. No, to the idea that the checks aren't necessary. Which you seem to be implying by dismissing the initiative as a smart biz move.

A couple weeks ago, I remembered back in 2006 I was on a mission to get the Endless achievement in Bejeweled 2 for some reason. Too much time on my hands, I guess. You have to get to like level 252 or something crazy. I never got there but I wondered how far I had gotten. I was able to, 3 weeks ago in 2022, simply press one button to launch Bejeweled 2, my save file from all those years ago booted up, and I checked in on that game 16 years later. Played it for a little bit and uploaded a brand new save to the cloud all from Series X. Point being BELIEVE the hype. It's an amazing thing that my tiny 2006 brain would have never known to want or ask for.

Your last stuff about playing on the original console and people simply pointing it out. Well, yeah. In this specific scenario that is what you can do. If you need to play the game natively then play it natively. This is all a bonus. It isn't console warring to point it out even if you feel slighted by the comments. It's just a fact.
 
Oct 27, 2017
7,977
Xbox: "Hey, we did this cool thing and you can play a lot of old games you bought 10+ years ago on the Series X. Your saves work, too."

"AH HA, but now I'm entitled to all these games working offline without any checks. Xbox, you need to change everything you did to get to this point so that your system magically works without internet checks. Really bad preservation problem for these games that were never supposed to be playable 10+ years later on current consoles in the first place."
and there we have it
 

Trup1aya

Literally a train safety expert
Member
Oct 25, 2017
21,356
The key difference is that I can order used copies of Mario Sunshine, FF10, and KotOR on eBay right now and play them on my original consoles. I don't like the thought of a world where you can't do that with the actual Series X releases of games. You won't be able to buy Halo Infinite's Series X version without an online connection if my understanding is correct.

"Preservation" might be semantically incorrect but for my money, the outcome is the same. People new to the hobby will have a harder time discovering and being able to play legacy titles.

You being able to buy new copies of old games is different from peoples old purchases becoming unplayable without an internet connection- which is the real preservation issue at hand. Two completely different subjects.

As for Halo Infinite, the likelihood that people new to the hobby will be unable to discover it in the foreseeable future is near 0. That an internet connection will be needed to get the latest version of it, is virtually a non-issue as the internet will only become more and more ubiquitous.

Discovering old games has been made easier by Microsoft's BC efforts, not less so. Your less likely to need to maintain old hardware, less need to worry about the condition of your physical media and can find tons old games to download right from your console .
 
Last edited:

RPGam3r

Member
Oct 27, 2017
13,500
I'm not surprised by any of the points. Digital is growing a lot faster than some anticipated. Years from now, people wont blink an eye at this stuff.

I already don't blink an eye at this. I can't recall the last physical game I've purchased. It's been at least 5-6 yrs at this point.
 
Oct 25, 2017
1,017
There are a lot of things to consider here but people are only stating as a matter of fact that, yes, an internet connection is required to experience these games as they are now. Games released on other hardware, both old and new, do not, with Xbox being an outlier. Does that in and of itself create problems for perseveration? No it doesn't. Does it create accessibility issues? Sure. PC is a perfect example of that. Hardware is always going to be the bigger hurdle for preservation than the way the software is obtained. Even things like display tech and optical readers are going to stop certain platforms and generations from being accessible, now and in the future.
 

IrishNinja

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
9,837
Vice City
I think the problem is that the vast, vast majority of people do not care about this. They don't plan to need to play these games decades in the future. I know I don't. Technology will undoubtedly make these games so dated they're mostly unplayable. Some of them already are.

🙄 never understand these posts. what exactly constitutes "unplayable" here?
 

Remark

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,553
Either the person in the video doesn't understand how home mode works or is manufacturing drama for his video.

They claim they can't play games on their Xbox One because it's not their home console and they have to keep swapping which one of their devices is designated as the home console and will run out of swaps.
The reality is they just need an internet connection on whichever console isn't set as their home console. That's it. Nothing more. No swaps needed.
Yeah I was about to say, as someone who gameshares if you're not the home console you just need an internet connection and you can play whatever. Also you run out of swaps for the year, it's not permanent. I believe you get like 2-3 swaps every calendar year.
 

Pancracio17

▲ Legend ▲
Avenger
Oct 29, 2017
18,758
Actually, I could have used FF11 or PSO too. The point of the video in the OP isn't singling out OG Xbox Microsoft for this, it's singling out current Microsoft for releasing physical games that might not be very usable in 20-30 years if Series X's online infrastructure is no longer supported.
The way MS has setup the new Xbox store, unifying last gens Xbox One store with the current gen Series X/S stores, it would take nothing short of Xbox as a whole shutting down to make those discs useless. Assuming Xbox continues this trend in next generations, the Xbox store should end up more like Steam, where nothing gets taken down outside of publishers taking the game down themselves.
 

Edward850

Software & Netcode Engineer at Nightdive Studios
Verified
Apr 5, 2019
992
New Zealand
He means working out of the box, without requiring to fetch anything online. Which they could totally do (Even before Series) but BC discs not 'just working' offline is part of their DRM chain, removing it doesn't serve any purpose MS wants.
That's just not how the Xbox OG/360 back compat works. The data doesn't exist in any native capacity on the discs or in the console itself, as it has to be statically recompiled per game. Such as the shaders or the executable binary itself. The way game data works, this has to be considered ROM packages as well, the Xbox cannot compile its own game, the technology simply isn't designed that way.
 

Jawmuncher

Crisis Dino
Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
38,483
Ibis Island
Haven't watched the video yet but the first point I would imagine depends. I've definitely installed some XB1 games on Series X without online (likely depends on the game though).

Regardless, there's definitely more than a few things that could really be better. The only real benefit at the moment is that if Xbox decides to scrap Xbox altogether at this point we probably have bigger matter to worry about.

I truly do hope they get around to implementing the features they said they'd look into about being able to setup an xbox completely offline and such.
 

Gestault

Member
Oct 26, 2017
13,361
I understand the frustration from the point of view of a collector (re: discs needing downloads or activation), but I think there are two halves to the practical situation: Preservation and availability.

Preservation is effectively a non-issue for mainstream releases like we're discussing here. And availability is better than the alternatives with the current Xbox platform features. So shy of Microsoft ceasing to exist or a global catastrophe where the internet as we know it is destroyed, I don't have a functional issue with the state of things.

Still, it is preferable when game discs are totally self-contained (i.e., that's the ideal). I know for sure some Xbox discs are this way, but also that plenty aren't.
 

9wilds

Member
Jan 1, 2022
3,580
🙄 never understand these posts. what exactly constitutes "unplayable" here?

Dated game mechanics that have been vastly improved upon over time. For an extreme example, you need only look to games like Goldeneye and Perfect Dark. Sometimes the industry just moves on.

Of course, I'm a person that generally finds almost no value in returning to old flames. I'd rather set out into a new unknown. For me, the future is always brighter than the past.
 

kubev

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,533
California
🙄 never understand these posts. what exactly constitutes "unplayable" here?
While not technically unplayable, I have to say, I can't bring myself to play Otogi when both axes of the right analog stick are inverted. Sure, I can invert the X axis from the Xbox Accessories app, but there's no way to invert the Y axis for some reason. Stuff like this is certainly fixable, but some of these control schemes are really weird by modern standards.
 

Sota4077

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account.
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
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I really like that Microsoft pursued backward compatibility but never liked their approach requiring downloads for OG and 360 games. I understand that for X1, it is needed. The Series, however, should be able to run those gamss natively already.

Not trying to be a jerk, but this just says you really are not familiar with how this works. Unless they match the hardware architecture of those old games, they will never play natively again. They will always be emulated. That is--barring some massive breakthrough in hardware architecture, which I doubt is even being researched at this point.
 

nbnt

Member
Oct 26, 2017
2,812
This is really funny when Xbox is the only current console with a BC solution, not a perfect one but it's certainly better than the nothing on PS and NS.
I'm more bothered by GaaS stuff across the board. Literally no way to preserve this stuff. When an event happens in Sea of Thieves or Genshin, that's it. Have Anthem servers been shut down yet? I have to imagine that will be happening somewhat soon if it hasn't already.
I mean, these games are like the MMOs that came before them and died, no one misses those MMOs and I can't imagine someone 20 years from now looking back and thinking "Man I wish I could play Anthem now"
 

Nax

Hero of Bowerstone
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Oct 10, 2018
6,674
This is really funny when Xbox is the only current console with a BC solution, not a perfect one but it's certainly better than the nothing on PS and NS.

I mean, these games are like the MMOs that came before them and died, no one misses those MMOs and I can't imagine someone 20 years from now looking back and thinking "Man I wish I could play Anthem now"
I play lots of "bad" retro games and love it lol. So idk.
 

jsnepo

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
4,648
Not trying to be a jerk, but this just says you really are not familiar with how this works. Unless they match the hardware architecture of those old games, they will never play natively again. They will always be emulated. That is--barring some massive breakthrough in hardware architecture, which I doubt is even being researched at this point.

No offense but when I say natively, I mean run the games directly from the disc without the need for a download. Of course I expect the games to be emulated, the same way PS1 games are emulated on all PS3s but these do not require any sort of downloads. Are you telling me the hardware on the Series consoles do not have the overhead to emulate Xbox 360 games on a system wide basis even without any enhancements to at least run them from the disc without any downloads?
 
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dlauv

Prophet of Truth - One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 27, 2017
11,513
Bad guy MS strikes again.

Though, it is a glaring weak spot in the ecosystem most involved in preserving games.

I understand games preservation is a hobby with speculative value, and it should definitely be catered to. But I feel like preservation generally has moralistic implications surrounding it that are kind of unrealistic. The physical media will rot and most everything will be uploaded to the internet anyway. In the case of a global blackout we'll have more pressing matters lol. But maybe I'm missing a philosophical point here beyond the sheer enjoyment of having a physical representation of a game you love.
 
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IrishNinja

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Oct 27, 2017
9,837
Vice City
While not technically unplayable, I have to say, I can't bring myself to play Otogi when both axes of the right analog stick are inverted. Sure, I can invert the X axis from the Xbox Accessories app, but there's no way to invert the Y axis for some reason. Stuff like this is certainly fixable, but some of these control schemes are really weird by modern standards.

yeah, early 3D stuff gets shat on here, but i often blame that on people not using the right setup/aspect ratio etc. i can definitely agree that stuff pre dual analog is harder to go back to, for example. that said, the person i'm quoting seems to imply that far more recent titles are "unplayable", which seems hyperbolic.
 

ss_lemonade

Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,658
yeah, early 3D stuff gets shat on here, but i often blame that on people not using the right setup/aspect ratio etc. i can definitely agree that stuff pre dual analog is harder to go back to, for example. that said, the person i'm quoting seems to imply that far more recent titles are "unplayable", which seems hyperbolic.
I believe Gunvalkyrie will forever have the wrong aspect ratio, but I guess it's also one of those odd games where it has the wrong aspect ratio even on original hardware. I still find it strange how some old youtube playthroughs and online review screenshots display it properly though
 

Fafalada

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,066
as it has to be statically recompiled per game
Virtually every emulator under the sun recompiles the original binaries - it's highly uncommon to run interpreted for any other reason but debugging accuracy purposes due to performance constraints.
Fully static recompilation (if that's indeed how it works) cuts the runtime overhead of running the compiler, but at the cost of producing lower-performing code, so the teams behind this would have every reason to continually re-evaluate the deployment as hw gets updated.

Actually of all the explanations of the process (MS was always elusive with their explanations tbh) downloading shader-blobs makes more sense than core-binaries, as those are just a general pain-in the ass to deal with, and console games from 360 era onwards often shipped with thousands (or 10s of thousands) of precompiled shaders. Those are much harder to hide runtime recompilation for, and don't have the same issue of producing lower-performing code when doing it statically as CPU side.