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Surfinn

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
28,590
USA
You don't think a multi-term senior senator planning to run for POTUS in the near future could do anything to scrub evidence or build an alibi proactively, in 1993 when basically all documentation was still paper?
I don't know. I'm not sure how easy it is to do something like that or how much power he would have had to do that.

All I know is that I believe she was raped until we have reporting that contradicts it. Because that's what accusers deserve. Biden doesn't need your protection, he's already got it from a plethora of others.

Also, again, in 1993 I don't think that incident would be thought of as "I need to protect myself now". His response, according to her story, was one of rejection and immediately tried to humiliate her for it, not "holy shit I need to prepare for retaliation".
 
Oct 26, 2017
8,206
You don't think a multi-term senior senator planning to run for POTUS in the near future could do anything to scrub evidence or build an alibi proactively, in 1993 when basically all documentation was still paper?
No? Look at Bill for example. None of them thought much of any of their actions I would assume because they were men in positions of power.
 

Chrome Hyena

Member
Oct 30, 2017
8,768
I'm not 100% up on this, and maybe someone can verify, but I would assume there would be document retention requirements for a Senators office. I mean, they would obviously burn anything really horrible, but it's very hard to completely scrub a paper record of anything that could be used to verify certain aspects of the story.

I mean, I doubt there was a sign-in sheet at the Senate gym or anything that handy, but we could likely at least be able to put Biden in DC at the time, etc.
Official complaints are documented yes. It's why we'll find out real soon if this part of her story is true or not.
 

Deleted member 48897

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 22, 2018
13,623
But yet he and his staff took the time to sideline Reade and basically end her career for reporting sexual harassment.

To clarify:
Wouldn't think to cover up sexual assault in 1993.

Would end a woman's career for complaining about sexual harassment in 1993.

I've made this joke before but
A Season in Purgatory 2: I Don't Think We're in Purgatory Any More

Sidelining her career, people not really having good ways to talk about traumatic events like this, and his general position in the party apparatus? That IS how it was buried.
 

Cbrun44

Member
Damn, you've got some people here working overtime on this to discredit her.



The irony of that last line after writing that entire post is not lost on me.


Not quite sure I understand your correlation here. The Intercept has an agenda and that can not be denied if you are being honest with yourself (This has nothing to do with the assault allegations. This is across the board in general). I said there is no vast conspiracy of rival organizations all working together to bury a story. Both statements true.
 

Surfinn

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
28,590
USA
Not quite sure I understand your correlation here. The Intercept has an agenda and that can not be denied if you are being honest with yourself (This has nothing to do with the assault allegations. This is across the board in general). I said there is no vast conspiracy of rival organizations all working together to bury a story. Both statements true.
This has nothing to do with The Intercept. This is not where the interview came from.
 

Drek

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,231
I don't know. I'm not sure how easy it is to do something like that or how much power he would have had to do that.

All I know is that I believe she was raped until we have reporting that contradicts it. Because that's what accusers deserve. Biden doesn't need your protection, he's already got it from a plethora of others.

Also, again, in 1993 I don't think that incident would be thought of as "I need to protect myself now". His response, according to her story, was one of rejection and immediately tried to humiliate her for it, not "holy shit I need to prepare for retaliation".
Accusers deserve to be heard and have their accusations credibly investigated. No one "deserves" absolute trust that another person is a rapist without evidence or corroboration.

No? Look at Bill for example. None of them thought much of any of their actions I would assume because they were men in positions of power.
Literally every accuser against Clinton that came forward during his political power were met with an array of already existing points of evidence (the veracity of which is up to the beholder at this point) conflicting or casting doubt on their stories.

I don't see how someone could think Clinton was guilty of sexual assault and then not think that his staff had some kind of meaningful defense already planned well prior to these events coming to light.
 

Drek

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,231
I've made this joke before but
A Season in Purgatory 2: I Don't Think We're in Purgatory Any More

Sidelining her career, people not really having good ways to talk about traumatic events like this, and his general position in the party apparatus? That IS how it was buried.
Getting a complaint ran through a shredder.

"updating" travel logs for a few specific days.

Those are also things get buried.

all newpapers have an agenda
intercept isn't the only one reporting this
they're not even the ones who broadcast reade's account
This has nothing to do with The Intercept. This is not where the interview came from.
Do you think its a coincidence that Grim and Hapler ran their respective stories within 24 hours of one another?

Its also worth nothing that Hapler didn't cover this on the podcast she co-hosts for Rolling Stone, she did it on a personal outlet, despite the former presumably having far more reach.

Maybe I'm just too much of a cynic but the way this supposedly circulated among other primary candidates and TimesUp without traction to then land here with the progressive left media sure seems like the first *click* of someone stepping on a landmine.
 

Surfinn

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
28,590
USA
Accusers deserve to be heard and have their accusations credibly investigated. No one "deserves" absolute trust that another person is a rapist without evidence or corroboration.
I don't like to do this but as a victim of sexual assault, listening to her account, twice (once on the soundcloud interview and the other via Rising video interview), her story is completely credible, from the way she describes the lead up to the assault, to the emotion, the event itself, the way she describes Biden acting right after, all of it lines up with a typical assault. The description she provides is very similar to those we saw in the Leaving Neverland docum

I believe she was raped.
I've said multiple times over multiple posts... The Intercept has been one of the lone outlets reporting on the Podcast interview.
www.vox.com

A sexual assault allegation against Joe Biden has ignited controversy

A woman says Biden assaulted her in 1993 and has filed a criminal complaint.

Not that it matters since the original interview is from the accuser herself (her own words), but is this a credible enough report for you?
Getting a complaint ran through a shredder.

"updating" travel logs for a few specific days.

Those are also things get buried.



Do you think its a coincidence that Grim and Hapler ran their respective stories within 24 hours of one another?

Its also worth nothing that Hapler didn't cover this on the podcast she co-hosts for Rolling Stone, she did it on a personal outlet, despite the former presumably having far more reach.

Maybe I'm just too much of a cynic but the way this supposedly circulated among other primary candidates and TimesUp without traction to then land here with the progressive left media sure seems like the first *click* of someone stepping on a landmine.
Maybe she wanted to do it in a more intimate setting since she's revealing to the world she was raped for the first time?

The takeaway shouldn't be about who reported it first. The takeaway is that a woman claims Biden raped her.
 

Drek

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,231
I don't like to do this but as a victim of sexual assault, listening to her account, twice (once on the soundcloud interview and the other via Rising video interview), her story is completely credible, from the way she describes the lead up to the assault, to the emotion, the event itself, the way she describes Biden acting right after, all of it lines up with a typical assault. The description she provides is very similar to those we saw in the Leaving Neverland docum

I believe she was raped.
What the fuck is typical assault?

You then liken it to a documentary as veracity.

Similarity with media isn't a good indicator of fact.

Your belief in her story is secondary to the notion of giving accusers the benefit of the doubt.
 

Surfinn

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
28,590
USA
What the fuck is typical assault?

You then liken it to a documentary as veracity.

Similarity with media isn't a good indicator of fact.

Your belief in her story is secondary to the notion of giving accusers the benefit of the doubt.
I'm talking about an account of victims of sexual assault. They were also interviewed by Oprah and recounted some of their experiences there.

I'm not just talking about those two examples, I'm talking about the way victims describe sexual assault, and hers is genuine. I've seen a lot, not just the ones that are produced for TV.

Believe women, believe accusers
 

Zyae

Prophet of Truth
Banned
Mar 17, 2020
2,057
I'm talking about an account of victims of sexual assault. They were also interviewed by Oprah and recounted some of their experiences there.

I'm not just talking about those two examples, I'm talking about the way victims describe sexual assault, and hers is genuine. I've seen a lot, not just the ones that are produced for TV.

Believe women, believe accusers


Their point is there is no "typical assault" and that gets thrown at victims who come out and are told their story doesn't follow a "typical assault" so it is not true. It is also possible to believe women and accusers and be skeptical of a particular accuser when taking in all the facts of a particular case.
 

Surfinn

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
28,590
USA
Their point is there is no "typical assault" and that gets thrown at victims who come out and are told their story doesn't follow a "typical assault" so it is not true. It is also possible to believe women and accusers and be skeptical of a particular accuser when taking in all the facts of a particular case.
My intention was not to express that if it doesn't follow a pattern it's not true. What I was saying is that the emotions and explanation follow along with many descriptions I've seen. They match my own experiences.

We have no reason to be skeptical of this accuser.
 

Drek

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,231
User Banned (2 Month): Downplaying sexual assault over a series of posts
My intention was not to express that if it doesn't follow a pattern it's not true. What I was saying is that the emotions and explanation follow along with many descriptions I've seen. They match my own experiences.

We have no reason to be skeptical of this accuser.
I'm saying that hearing a lot of sexual assault stories, or being a survivor of sexual assault, doesn't grant someone extra sensory sexual assault victim verification powers.

Personally I have less faith in someone's claim on anything (not just sexual assault) when it closely mirrors the language and phrasing used by others in contemporary media. But thats just because I'm incredibly cynical and acknowledge that I bring that bias to the equation.
 

Surfinn

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
28,590
USA
I'm saying that hearing a lot of sexual assault stories, or being a survivor of sexual assault, doesn't grant someone extra sensory sexual assault victim verification powers.

Personally I have less faith in someone's claim on anything (not just sexual assault) when it closely mirrors the language and phrasing used by others in contemporary media. But thats just because I'm incredibly cynical and acknowledge that I bring that bias to the equation.
It allows you to recognize some very real things that they've experienced. I'm not saying it closely mirrors anything like a check of boxes. I'm talking about the story itself as a whole.

And honestly I don't appreciate the insinuation here.
 

Cat Party

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,403
I've been holding off on reading about this story, but I read the Vox piece. I have to admit that I am really stuck in between two opinions, both of which can be true at the same time. I don't see any reason to doubt the story. But I also see a lot of opportunism (not on the part of the victim) in how the story has come out. It's hard for me to get over the latter part and focus more objectively on the prior part.

At the end of the day, it doesn't matter why a story came out when it did if the story is true. I don't know if the story is true, but I'm not writing it off because the victim has some weird political views or because an explicitly anti-Biden and pro-Bernie publication like the Intercept amplified the story.
 

Tetra-Grammaton-Cleric

user requested ban
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
8,958
Literally every accuser against Clinton that came forward during his political power were met with an array of already existing points of evidence (the veracity of which is up to the beholder at this point) conflicting or casting doubt on their stories.

Really? Care to tell me what 'array of already existing points of evidence' they have offered up in defense of Juanita Broaddrick's claim that Bill Clinton raped her?

I'd really love to know because I'm not aware of any such evidence.
 

RussTC3

Banned
Nov 28, 2018
1,878
The Biden campaign responded, calling the allegation "false" and encouraging reporters to "rigorously vet" the claims (Fox News):

Former Vice President Joe Biden's campaign on Friday adamantly denied a newly surfaced allegation of sexual assault leveled by a former Senate staffer, calling the claim concerning the purported incident decades ago "false."​
"Women have a right to tell their story, and reporters have an obligation to rigorously vet those claims. We encourage them to do so, because these accusations are false," Kate Bedingfield, deputy campaign manager and communications director for the Biden campaign, said in a statement to Fox News.​
 
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Addie

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,684
DFW
I've been holding off on reading about this story, but I read the Vox piece. I have to admit that I am really stuck in between two opinions, both of which can be true at the same time. I don't see any reason to doubt the story. But I also see a lot of opportunism (not on the part of the victim) in how the story has come out. It's hard for me to get over the latter part and focus more objectively on the prior part.

At the end of the day, it doesn't matter why a story came out when it did if the story is true. I don't know if the story is true, but I'm not writing it off because the victim has some weird political views or because an explicitly anti-Biden and pro-Bernie publication like the Intercept amplified the story.
This is an important point. The journalists involved have different motivations than the accuser. Honestly, as someone who prosecuted and convicted rapists, as well as someone who was (in a very minor fashion) sexually assaulted... there are no "perfect victims." They all present in different ways. There's no "right" way to report anything.

On the other hand, as other people have mentioned, there should be verifiable pieces of information that will lend credence to the accusation, or not.
 

Sendero

Member
Oct 25, 2017
896
The fact that people here (of all places) still find surprising those 3 gifs about Biden, should make it clear how much of a liability he would be in the General.
Because, once again, the vast majority of the electorate are not familiar with any of this information. They all see is "Obama's VP".


What do you think will happen, when GOP start to unleash all the unsavory decisions Biden took in the Congress + all his questionable soundbites from decades ago + Burisma thing + the sexual harrasment stories + those uncomfortable videos (of which are far, far more) + all the videos where he either reacts aggressive to people questioning him or just plain looks out of it?

And that's on top of all the other stuff they have researched in the last year or so.
People should already be calling their representatives to take immediate action. Expecting the Democrat leadership to solve this, is a fool's errand.


Furthermore, it's just a moral imperative that this case is properly researched. Justice can't do anything, any more.
But bringing solace to the (potential) victims, should be at the top of the list. Allowing politicians to keep getting away with it, is just not acceptable.
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,899
Ontario
The fact that people here (of all places) still find surprising those 3 gifs about Biden, should make it clear how much of a liability he would be in the General.
Because, once again, the vast majority of the electorate are not familiar with any of this information. They all see is "Obama's VP".


What do you think will happen, when GOP start to unleash all the unsavory decisions Biden took in the Congress + all his questionable soundbites from decades ago + Burisma thing + the sexual harrasment stories + those uncomfortable videos (of which are far, far more) + all the videos where he either reacts aggressive to people questioning him or just plain looks out of it?

And that's on top of all the other stuff they have researched in the last year or so.
People should already be calling their representatives to take immediate action. Expecting the Democrat leadership to solve this, is a fool's errand.
a lot of american voters have a misplaced allegiance with the process which can make them miss the forest for the trees

Biden is gonna speed run a decade of smears between now and November and many of them are factual or grounded in credible allegations
 

Tetra-Grammaton-Cleric

user requested ban
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
8,958
This is an important point. The journalists involved have different motivations than the accuser. Honestly, as someone who prosecuted and convicted rapists, as well as someone who was (in a very minor fashion) sexually assaulted... there are no "perfect victims." They all present in different ways. There's no "right" way to report anything.

On the other hand, as other people have mentioned, there should be verifiable pieces of information that will lend credence to the accusation, or not.

Well, I'll be upfront and admit I have zero experience prosecuting rapists but aren't rapes and sexual assault such difficult crimes to prove precisely because they often have no real evidence to go on outside of the victim's testimony, especially if the accusations come much later than the crime?

Weren't Cosby and Weinstein both convicted based almost solely on the testimony of the victims?

As a prosecutor, how often did you come across false rape and sexual assault allegations? Because as I understand it, they are exceedingly rare.
 

danm999

Member
Oct 29, 2017
17,096
Sydney
The Biden campaign responded, calling the allegation "false" and encouraging reporters to "rigorously vet" the claims (Fox News):

Former Vice President Joe Biden's campaign on Friday adamantly denied a newly surfaced allegation of sexual assault leveled by a former Senate staffer, calling the claim concerning the purported incident decades ago "false."​
"Women have a right to tell their story, and reporters have an obligation to rigorously vet those claims. We encourage them to do so, because these accusations are false," Kate Bedingfield, deputy campaign manager and communications director for the Biden campaign, said in a statement to Fox News.​

Believe some women huh Joe
 

Tetra-Grammaton-Cleric

user requested ban
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
8,958
Alternet is running a story as well.

www.alternet.org

Why a new rape accusation against Joe Biden has to be taken seriously

A former staffer for former Vice President Joe Biden, widely regarded as having an essentially unstoppable lead for the Democratic presidential nomination, has revealed a new and disturbing allegation of sexual assault and rape against her one-time boss.Tara Reade spoke to the hosts of "Rising,"...

Do yourself a favor and avoid the comment section. It's rape-culture-blame-the-victim central in there.
 

Chrome Hyena

Member
Oct 30, 2017
8,768
The Biden campaign responded, calling the allegation "false" and encouraging reporters to "rigorously vet" the claims (Fox News):

Former Vice President Joe Biden's campaign on Friday adamantly denied a newly surfaced allegation of sexual assault leveled by a former Senate staffer, calling the claim concerning the purported incident decades ago "false."​
"Women have a right to tell their story, and reporters have an obligation to rigorously vet those claims. We encourage them to do so, because these accusations are false," Kate Bedingfield, deputy campaign manager and communications director for the Biden campaign, said in a statement to Fox News.​
This is good. And I agree with this sentiment. Vigorously vet this story, prove it true or false.
 

Addie

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,684
DFW
Well, I'll be upfront and admit I have zero experience prosecuting rapists but aren't rapes and sexual assault such difficult crimes to prove precisely because they often have no real evidence to go on outside of the victim's testimony, especially if the accusations come much later than the crime?

Weren't Cosby and Weinstein both convicted based almost solely on the testimony of the victims?

As a prosecutor, how often did you come across false rape and sexual assault allegations? Because as I understand it, they are exceedingly rare.
Yes, in several convictions, the only evidence we had was the victim's testimony. In most cases, the accused admitted several key facts, such as placing himself in the location with the victim. I was a military prosecutor, so the vast majority of cases involved: young people, alcohol, preexisting dating relationships, and defenses based upon claims of an honest and reasonable mistake of fact as to consent. (They were usually not successful.)

I'm only passingly familiar with the Cosby/Weinstein cases -- that is, the specific charges of which they were actually convicted. Still, in those instances, evidence of Weinstein and Cosby's actions towards earlier victims might've been introduced as probative evidence to show their plan, intent, and motive in attacking other women.

Anyway, as far as false allegations...

One, actually. Maybe one and a half. I can say one for certain because the "victim," to her credit, eventually recanted. She'd been having a consensual sexual relationship with another soldier in Afghanistan. Sex while deployed isn't permitted. When they were caught, she claimed she'd never consented. She was young and afraid of what would happen to her. Once someone pointed out the ramifications for her paramour, she admitted she lied. She was subsequently disciplined for filing a false report.

This, by the way, is why I personally don't think that "#believewomen" means that all women are always telling the truth always. But I think it's imperative to keep in mind that false allegations are exceedingly rare and that, when they are false, some reasonable investigation may generally uncover the motivation for fabrication. Also important to keep in mind: (1) there are no "perfect" victims and (2) the criminal justice system is hell for victims.
 
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Surfinn

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
28,590
USA
This, by the way, is why I personally don't think that "#believewomen" means that all women are always telling the truth always. But I think it's imperative to keep in mind that false allegations are exceedingly rare and that, when they are false, some reasonable investigation may generally uncover the motivation for fabrication. Also important to keep in mind: (1) there are no "perfect" victims and (2) the criminal justice system is hell for victims.
It's important to believe and support accusers (in the public eye) because it's incredibly difficult to going public or even telling one person about your experience. That is, unless there is contradictory evidence or something that invalidates their credibility.

Our default stance should be to assume accusers are credible until they're not. I've seen a boatload of people here on ERA (and in this thread, even catching bans for it) doubt her credibility for no established reason.
 

TheMango55

Banned
Nov 1, 2017
5,788
It's important to believe and support accusers (in the public eye) because it's incredibly difficult to going public or even telling one person about your experience. That is, unless there is contradictory evidence or something that invalidates their credibility.

Our default stance should be to assume accusers are credible until they're not. I've seen a boatload of people here on ERA (and in this thread, even catching bans for it) doubt her credibility for no established reason.

There's room though to both assume that an accuser is credible and yet not instantly demand for the accused to face immediate consequences without investigation.
 

Surfinn

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
28,590
USA
www.huffingtonpost.ca

Joe Biden Accused Of Sexually Assaulting Senate Aide In 1993

Tara Reade, one of eight women to accuse Biden of inappropriate touching, said this week that the presidential candidate assaulted her nearly 30 years ago.

huffpo seems to be running the story as well

i don't see this not breaking wide in the media at this point

and a categorical denial without something tangible is not an adequate response
Hard to imagine WaPo/NYT/CNN not following up at this point
I mean people basically calling on him to drop out or the DNC to force him out of the race right now.
Individuals are able to make those determinations on their own (expressing their opinions). People have lost their jobs over less severe allegations. It's not like this is the first accusation, multiple women have stepped forward with various stories.
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,899
Ontario
I mean people basically calling on him to drop out or the DNC to force him out of the race right now.
it's good political management the alternative is calling her a liar and having that thrown in your face until november

the Ontario conservatives were in a similar situation where their leader was alleged to have bought drugs for and propositioned party interns 15 weeks out from the election. He was polling in super-majority territory but the caucus dumped him and held an emergency leadership election because they couldn't let the accusations fuck up an easy win

now doug ford is premier of ontario, sometimes decisive action pays off in politics.
 

spam musubi

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,380
I mean people basically calling on him to drop out or the DNC to force him out of the race right now.

The longer they take to do something about it, the worse it will look for them when it inevitably ends up getting verified. Every democratic figurehead is going to be under pressure to respond to this, and a non response is going to end up looking like making excuses for rape. This is a sinking ship that they need to abandon as fast as possible for the sake of the party and the election. It's not like this is an accusation from nowhere. It's building on an already established accusation, and there are other allegations against Biden, and his very publicly visible creepy behavior. What standard of verification is good enough for you until something needs to be done?
 

Addie

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,684
DFW
It's important to believe and support accusers (in the public eye) because it's incredibly difficult to going public or even telling one person about your experience. That is, unless there is contradictory evidence or something that invalidates their credibility.

Our default stance should be to assume accusers are credible until they're not. I've seen a boatload of people here on ERA (and in this thread, even catching bans for it) doubt her credibility for no established reason.
My stance has consistently been shaped by the following axioms:
  • Going forward is hard.
  • Going forward in public is exponentially harder.
  • Statistically, false reports are incredibly rare.
  • The criminal justice system, while necessary, is nevertheless hell for victims -- no one reports a sexual assault "for fun."
  • In some cases, there are prima facie reasons that impact the credibility of the victim or the accuser.
In other words, that's the "contradictory evidence" you mentioned. For instance, let's use Weinstein as an example: his pattern of conduct is well-known, and so if another female actress accused him, her credibility is boosted. I don't really want to make up converse examples, so I'll use my Soldier-in-Afghanistan consensual sex turned rape accusation. While an investigation was conducted, the eventual results weren't surprising: the motive to fabricate was plausible on its face, as was her being afraid of getting in trouble, and I think it was all resolved within days? It's been a while.

For public figures, I believe we're on the same page, or nearly so.

As far as this particular case? Additional, amplifying facts are likely going to be discovered through investigation because of the situation's newsworthiness. However, taking into consideration the axioms I mentioned above, nothing that's been presently reported that would or should impact her credibility.
 

Surfinn

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
28,590
USA
My stance has consistently been shaped by the following axioms:
  • Going forward is hard.
  • Going forward in public is exponentially harder.
  • Statistically, false reports are incredibly rare.
  • The criminal justice system, while necessary, is nevertheless hell for victims -- no one reports a sexual assault "for fun."
  • In some cases, there are prima facie reasons that impact the credibility of the victim or the accuser.
In other words, that's the "contradictory evidence" you mentioned. For instance, let's use Weinstein as an example: his pattern of conduct is well-known, and so if another female actress accused him, her credibility is boosted. I don't really want to make up converse examples, so I'll use my Soldier-in-Afghanistan consensual sex turned rape accusation. While an investigation was conducted, the eventual results weren't surprising: the motive to fabricate was plausible on its face, as was her being afraid of getting in trouble, and I think it was all resolved within days? It's been a while.

For public figures, I believe we're on the same page, or nearly so.

As far as this particular case? Additional, amplifying facts are likely going to be discovered through investigation because of the situation's newsworthiness. However, taking into consideration the axioms I mentioned above, nothing that's been presently reported that would or should impact her credibility.
I think we're moving in the same direction, then. There is no current reason to question her credibility or assume she's being dishonest (which many on this forum have already done regardless). Therefore there is no reason to not assume she is a credible accuser.

Her story is making the rounds now, on major news sources like HuffPost.
 

Addie

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,684
DFW
I think we're moving in the same direction, then. There is no current reason to question her credibility or assume she's being dishonest (which many on this forum have already done regardless). Therefore there is no reason to not assume she is a credible accuser.

Her story is making the rounds now, on major news sources like HuffPost.
Yep. And let's assume Biden's innocent. Any normal person would want a full-throated investigation and reporting to clear their name (to the extent that investigations can do that -- can't always happen when it's two people in a hallway); any presidential candidate, especially one running on an ethics/character platform, is definitely going to want that.

It appears the Biden camp wants a thorough inquiry. I don't know what the accuser wants and don't want to put words in her mouth, but I think it's fair to assume that it's "justice," which would necessarily mean some kind of predicate inquiry... or, in other words, what Biden's claiming to want.

Thus, we'll see. And I think we'll see rather quickly.
 

Surfinn

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
28,590
USA
Yep. And let's assume Biden's innocent. Any normal person would want a full-throated investigation and reporting to clear their name (to the extent that investigations can do that -- can't always happen when it's two people in a hallway); any presidential candidate, especially one running on an ethics/character platform, is definitely going to want that.

It appears the Biden camp wants a thorough inquiry. I don't know what the accuser wants and don't want to put words in her mouth, but I think it's fair to assume that it's "justice," which would necessarily mean some kind of predicate inquiry... or, in other words, what Biden's claiming to want.

Thus, we'll see. And I think we'll see rather quickly.
I agree that an investigation should be done, but it's also not something that always concludes in a fair way (especially with high profile names). Look at the Kav stuff. Grey areas are often used to bolster the reputation and image of the accused. Ford had to move due to death threads/harassment. Kav got to be a supreme court judge, not long after her name was basically dragged through the mud. She is still dealing with those ramifications to this day.

That's why to me it's not nearly as simple as "let's do an investigation". It's a good first step but it's also usually still an extreme uphill battle for victims of sexual assault.

I think the Biden camp knows this. They know that ultimately, it's going to be her word against his. They know that if there is not damning evidence that Biden raped her, it will be enough.
 

Sendero

Member
Oct 25, 2017
896
The story has more ramifications than people are giving credit. For those that didn't read The Intercept article:

The public relations firm that works on behalf of the Time's Up Legal Defense Fund is SKDKnickerbocker, whose managing director, Anita Dunn, is the top adviser to Biden's presidential campaign. A spokesperson for Biden declined to comment.

SKDKnickerbocker is one of the main Consulting firms for the Dem party.


The party really needs to step up, and do an open and public investigation, rather than say: "Yeah, this is known. It's false. The End".
Even if people do not believe her, this is going to damage Biden; so they either deal with it in an honest way now, or everyone faces the consequences later.



Also, there is no Justice to be called here. That (potential) crime occurred in the 90's. Police cannot intervene anymore.
The media owners know that Biden could win; they have a vested interest not to damage the relationship with him now. Do we really expect them to pour resources to uncover the facts prior Election day?

Ignoring this, is accepting that Trump (and maybe Biden) was right all along:
The powerful can get away with anything. The rest are nothing.
 

Stooge

Member
Oct 29, 2017
11,136
Yep. And let's assume Biden's innocent. Any normal person would want a full-throated investigation and reporting to clear their name (to the extent that investigations can do that -- can't always happen when it's two people in a hallway); any presidential candidate, especially one running on an ethics/character platform, is definitely going to want that.

It appears the Biden camp wants a thorough inquiry. I don't know what the accuser wants and don't want to put words in her mouth, but I think it's fair to assume that it's "justice," which would necessarily mean some kind of predicate inquiry... or, in other words, what Biden's claiming to want.

Thus, we'll see. And I think we'll see rather quickly.

I'm assuming that if she is fabricating this the story it will fall apart rather quickly. i.e. Biden will not have been there the day of the sexual assault. There is no reported sexual harassment. The people she mentioned talking to claim conversations never happened. She wrote *a lot* on her Medium page and has made lots of pretty easily refutable claims.

Unfortunately for the victim establishing her side of the story will be harder and take longer. That said, the more details of her previous stories are proven true, hopefully the public will move in her direction and Biden will drop out. Again, she wrote *a lot* if much of what she said is verified, it will lend a lot of credibility to her story. The assault itself will be basically impossible to prove because there were only two people in the room.

There is also the possibility that this is part of a larger pattern and we will have more victims come forward and then much like Weinstein it won't be about individual claims but the overwhelming pattern of events.

So far the Biden camp is at least not going with the "bernie bros, likes Russia" story (or worse - like the normal "oh hey she had lots of boyfriends" slut-shaming bullshit), and hopefully that's not where this winds up, though I worry that if details of her story start being corroborated it may because its there and it would likely be "enough".
 

Addie

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,684
DFW
I agree that an investigation should be done, but it's also not something that always concludes in a fair way (especially with high profile names). Look at the Kav stuff. Grey areas are often used to bolster the reputation and image of the accused. Ford had to move due to death threads/harassment. Kav got to be a supreme court judge, not long after her name was basically dragged through the mud. She is still dealing with those ramifications to this day.

That's why to me it's not nearly as simple as "let's do an investigation". It's a good first step but it's also usually still an extreme uphill battle for victims of sexual assault.

I think the Biden camp knows this. They know that ultimately, it's going to be her word against his. They know that if there is not damning evidence that Biden raped her, it will be enough.
For what it's worth, I agree with everything you said. Tried to allude to that with the comment about investigations not meaning much if it's two people in a private area together.

Like I mentioned up-thread, there's often little dispute about time and location. I think you and I both can predict how this could play out: employment records establish she worked there during the time period; calendars or CSPAN votes show Biden was there; her family says she confided in them about the assault (although given how memories are, and how victims can sometimes disclose iteratively, that could have an impact); and any internal investigation either didn't happen (see: Biden's Executive Assistant) because she didn't feel comfortable going forward, or it may have gone forward on "sexual harassment" grounds.

Setting all of that aside, even if Ms. Reade isn't fully aware of all of this, surely people she's spoken with have told her "this is hard, and this is how these things usually go." And yet she decided to come forward anyway. That's an important data point that we shouldn't overlook.
 

Stooge

Member
Oct 29, 2017
11,136
The story has more ramifications than people are giving credit. For those that didn't read The Intercept article:



SKDKnickerbocker is one of the main Consulting firms for the Dem party.


The party really needs to step up, and do an open and public investigation, rather than say: "Yeah, this is known. It's false. The End".
Even if people do not believe her, this is going to damage Biden; so they either deal with it in an honest way now, or everyone faces the consequences later.



Also, there is no Justice to be called here. That (potential) crime occurred in the 90's. Police cannot intervene anymore.
The media owners know that Biden could win; they have a vested interest not to damage the relationship with him now. Do we really expect them to pour resources to uncover the facts prior Election day?

Ignoring this, is accepting that Trump (and maybe Biden) was right all along:
The powerful can get away with anything. The rest are nothing.

I think the correct move for the DNC is to let journalists do their job without interference. I'm not sure anyone would really trust a DNC investigation given the closeness of SKDKnickerbocker to the DNC in any case. It's better that they full cooperate with journalists and be transparent, but I'd rather we get a certain writer for the New Yorker involved with this who has *massive* credibility on this exact subject.

So far we haven't really had anyone investigative on the issue. It's been interviews, which is an obvious first step. But there are really good journalists who can get at this.
 

GaimeGuy

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
5,092
Believe some women huh Joe
This is fucking ridiculous. Do you even care about whether or not it happened versus whether or not an accusation is made? Believe women doesn't mean guilty unless proven innocent. If you don't care to know the difference between that and treating allegations seriously, you're never going to see systemic abuse among political circles actually tackled as an issue; It'll just be kept secret until someone decides they want to advance their career, and then exposed on a case-by-case basis, when politically convenient.

Is that what you want? Abuse to continue until a judge decides they want to become a senator? Alleged hollywood wifebeaters to be damned unless they have tapes of their accusers admitting to being violent? Abuse to continue until rumblings about a senator running for president begin to be raised? Abuse to be kept under wraps after a majority of delegates have been decided in presidential primaries? I'm sure my mother, who is an abuse victim, would have liked to know about these allegations before she casted her vote for biden on super tuesday, and for these allegations to have been vetted, so she could make an informed fucking decision before the 11th hour of the election cycle.

We deserve to know what's going on and I'm fucking sick of seeing people rush to judgement without even bothering to investigate, it turns abuse into a silver bullet for elections and ruining people's lives instead of an actual fucking problem we're trying to tackle as a society
 
Oct 27, 2017
11,505
Bandung Indonesia
So we have a rapist vs a rapist eh. No matter who wins, the American President is a rapist nonetheless, and people are voting for one or the other knowing that they are rapist.

Presidential candidates are supposed to be the best and brightest. And now for the US, the best of them happen to be rapist POS.

How.... eloquent.
 
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