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EdibleKnife

Member
Oct 29, 2017
7,723
so Im wrong for saying every cop is not or a bastard?? thats BS bro.

the INSTITUTION and JUSTICE system needs changed and the BAD cops need punished is a far more substantial arguement then some broad ass statement that adds no value
No. You're wrong for thinking that the cops you know who are nice to you is representative of how nicely the treat other people under their authority. The cops in this story more than likely have a multitude of people willing to call them good people. And yet they did kill a man on their beat because they used excessive force and chose to rely on protection from their bosses and co-workers to dodge punishment. That doesn't change no matter how nicely their friends or family talk about them. Hell my own mom is someone I'd call a nice person but that doesn't change the fact that she's a bigot who has never gotten over the gross idea that we as African people are superior to African-Americans. I've seen how much is different between how she treats family and how she treats those she's biased against.

Yes the institution does need to be changed but the institution exists because it's formed and overseen by the individuals within it. Cops are not separate from the institution they work in and have as much responsibility as anyone else, even more so, to push back against its bad and lift up its good.
 
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Mesoian

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Oct 28, 2017
26,515
Seriously? Why is this kind of hate tolerated on this forum?

Can you really say that every cop is a racist, despicable bastard that deserves to die?

It amazes me that people on this forum are so quick to call out people for stereotypes and prejudice, but they turn a blind eye when it comes to the police.

Yes, there are many corrupt and horrible cops out there, but saying all cops are trash is no way to fix the problem.

Tell you what.

When the fraternal order of police condemn these acts, we'll back off.

Spoilers: they never, ever, EVER, will. That's the problem. The people at the top don't think this kind of behavior is a problem and would rather shuffle problem agents around rather than get rid of them. Their system is broken and rotten to the core.

So pretty please, with a cherry on top, don't talk to me about "not all cops" when the people in charge don't give a shit about murdering innocent people, people calling the police for help, in the street.
 

GrizzleBoy

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
2,762
I don't see the big deal, it was just an accident.

Everybody kills someone by accident at least once in their life.

Why would you expect the police to be held to a higher standard?
 

Deleted member 6230

User-requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
6,118
  • I agree.
  • I agree, though that is going to be difficult to do, especially in rural areas. I work at a law enforcement training center, and we can't let people go just because they are assholes. Sadly, it has to be something that is actionable. What we can do is alert their chief if we think that the student is an asshole.
  • I agree.
  • There is a lot of training out there, both in basic and after. What needs to happen is a legislative effort to be put forth requiring officers to take the training. This would have to be on a state level. In Kansas there is a requirement that officers take racial and other biased-based training on an annual basis. I believe that is the only training required of the officers. The remaining 40 annual hours of training can be on whatever the officer wants.
  • On paper that sounds good, but the execution would be difficult. It would work better if the states had clearly defined practices. As it is, some agencies define their own practices based on a number of factors. Organize things on a state level, then organize it on a national level.
  • 100% yes. Again, that is something that needs to happen on a state level with the legislature. There needs to be more severe penalties for lost cameras or cameras that aren't turned on. Agency heads need to be able to fire problem officers without the unions interferring. Bad cops need to be made an example of, and the example needs to be incredibly harsh.
  • I agree, but again there would be issues with rural and small towns.
  • I don't know if less cops are the answer. If you have better trained officers, would it matter?

    These are just my opinions. I'm coming from this from the perspective of small town policing. I wouldn't speak to large metropolitan policing.
Less cops because we seriously have to get away from solving every societal issue by throwing more cops at it. Ill give you an example. I'm from and currently live in NYC (so my perspective on these matters is informed by that) and the MTA, city's public transportation system, is in utter shambles at the moment. I'll spare you the details but just know it's actually shit. Anyway, our bitch ass governor Cuomo decides that one of the ways he's going to solve the MTA's woes and fix the system is by cracking down on fare evasion. So the State of NY is going to actually spend money and resources to have 500 cops wait around in train stations ticketing people for jumping the turnslides. Instead of using that money to like fix the myriad of issues with the MTA.
 

DIE BART DIE

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,847
Your police in the US honestly are cunts.

Our UK police seem to be on a whole other level in terms of professionalism.

Also, I was surprised this was about a white guy being killed. Maybe there will be outrage this time and it will actually result in change.
 

Tedesco!

Drive-in Mutant
Member
Oct 30, 2017
689
Less cops because we seriously have to get away from solving every societal issue by throwing more cops at it. Ill give you an example. I'm from and currently live in NYC (so my perspective on these matters is informed by that) and the MTA, city's public transportation system, is in utter shambles at the moment. I'll spare you the details but just know it's actually shit. Anyway, our bitch ass governor Cuomo decides that one of the ways he's going to solve the MTA's woes and fix the system is by cracking down on fare evasion. So the State of NY is going to actually spend money and resources to have 500 cops wait around in train stations ticketing people for jumping the turnslides. Instead of using that money to like fix the myriad of issues with the MTA.

I understand completely and agree that that solution is a complete waste of time and resources. I was coming at it from my perspective, which is that there are not a lot of police where I live. The current response time to my home is roughly 13 minutes, and that's if the one officer on duty that night happens to be in the center of town. I would welcome a stronger police presence, because there are a lot of meth related crimes going on. That and the KKK has been getting bold in the surrounding areas.

What has me disheartened is that there are too many moving pieces for something to be done to be quickly to fix this profession. It's going to take decades.
 

EdibleKnife

Member
Oct 29, 2017
7,723
It all depends on where you live. I think it will ultimately depend on the public to initialize true change by electing officials that are not afraid of the unions and will enact the proper legislation.
What do you think the various people who've been victimized by police brutality have been doing for centuries already? Communities already go through the process of trying to ensure actual fairness and justice. Yet there's a nearly empty void where the police aren't working to bolster the efforts of citizens. People know what is required to change law enforcement and the judicial system. Braver and smarter marginalized and oppressed people have exposed & written about corruption, fought, bled, died, and lost their freedom facing the daunting system of law enforcement since the birth of this country and it's long past time for police to match that same fervor and do their own part in changing the institution they work in.
 

Tedesco!

Drive-in Mutant
Member
Oct 30, 2017
689
What do you think the various people who've been victimized by police brutality have been doing for centuries already? Communities already go through the process of trying to ensure actual fairness and justice. Yet there's a nearly empty void where the police aren't working to bolster the efforts of citizens. People know what is required to change law enforcement and the judicial system. Braver and smarter marginalized and oppressed people have exposed & written about corruption, fought, bled, died, and lost their freedom facing the daunting system of law enforcement since the birth of this country and it's long past time for police to match that same fervor and do their own part in changing the institution they work in.

I understand that. It's beyond the communities. I am talking about voting for the people that will have the power to make the change. Don't depend on the police to make the change because odds are it won't happen. I also understand that the level of difficulty only increases with the population of a city.

To your other point, no, I don't think the majority of the people know what is required to change law enforcement. I've read in this thread and other people saying that "there need to be laws regarding such and such", and that simply isn't going to happen on a national level. Change is not going to come from the top down on a national level, but rather a state level, and that all depends on how things are organized. The action for change that works for one state might not work for the other.
 

Deleted member 6230

User-requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
6,118
It all depends on where you live. I think it will ultimately depend on the public to initialize true change by electing officials that are not afraid of the unions and will enact the proper legislation.
I think it's going to take people agitating constantly causing that consciousness shift in the public and people collectively organizing fighting for the reforms they want to see politically. People gotta demand this shit because politicians themselves won't care.
 

Kronotech

Member
Oct 28, 2017
509
Can we ever get to the point where the body cams can live stream into a city hub where a Captain (or someone to give them orders) and a 3rd party group can monitor and communicate with the officers? These deaths are preventable and should be stopped while it's happening, not only discussed after the fact.

Officer: I fear for my life. This guy looked at me funny.
Monitor: Officer, this suspect is unarmed and is complying. Do not take out your gun
Officer: But...
Captain: Do not take out your gun.

Obviously that's incredibly simplifying a generic situation but if they knew they were being actively watched LIVE, it might deter so many of these horrible crimes.
 

LiquidSword

Member
Oct 25, 2017
501
Your police in the US honestly are cunts.

Our UK police seem to be on a whole other level in terms of professionalism.

Also, I was surprised this was about a white guy being killed. Maybe there will be outrage this time and it will actually result in change.
Nope. There has been videos of unarmed white people getting killed by cops before. Instead of disparaging the victim like they usually do with black suspects, white people just ignore these instances. A necessary sacrifice to uphold white supremacy.
 

Clefargle

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,124
Limburg
Can we ever get to the point where the body cams can live stream into a city hub where a Captain (or someone to give them orders) and a 3rd party group can monitor and communicate with the officers? These deaths are preventable and should be stopped while it's happening, not only discussed after the fact.

Officer: I fear for my life. This guy looked at me funny.
Monitor: Officer, this suspect is unarmed and is complying. Do not take out your gun
Officer: But...
Captain: Do not take out your gun.

Obviously that's incredibly simplifying a generic situation but if they knew they were being actively watched LIVE, it might deter so many of these horrible crimes.

I really like this idea
 

kittens

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
4,237
Police are so terrible dealing with mental health. I wish there was a service like firefighters and ambulances that could send mental health professionals as emergency responders.
That's what the organization CAHOOTS is doing in Eugene, Oregon:


CAHOOTS (Crisis Assistance Helping Out On The Streets) provides mobile crisis intervention 24/7 in the Eugene-Springfield Metro area. CAHOOTS is dispatched through the Eugene police-fire-ambulance communications center, and within the Springfield urban growth boundary, dispatched through the Springfield non-emergency number.

Each team consists of a medic (either a nurse or an EMT) & a crisis worker (who has at least several years experience in the mental health field). CAHOOTS provides immediate stabilization in case of urgent medical need or psychological crisis, assessment, information, referral, advocacy & (in some cases) transportation to the next step in treatment.

CAHOOTS offers a broad range of services, including but not limited to:
  • Crisis Counseling
  • Suicide Prevention, Assessment, and Intervention
  • Conflict Resolution and Mediation
  • Grief and loss
  • Substance Abuse
  • Housing Crisis
  • First Aid and Non-Emergency Medical Care
  • Resource Connection and Referrals
  • Transportation to Services

There's folks in Portland (including the mayor) who are expressing interest in adopting a similar program. A group called Care Not Cops has been working since 2017 to organize the community towards a collective vision, planning, and action towards defunding/abolishing police and replacing them with more helpful, humane, and just systems. I highly recommend checking out their website and reading the report they published earlier this year.

 
Oct 25, 2017
12,018
Can we ever get to the point where the body cams can live stream into a city hub where a Captain (or someone to give them orders) and a 3rd party group can monitor and communicate with the officers? These deaths are preventable and should be stopped while it's happening, not only discussed after the fact.

Officer: I fear for my life. This guy looked at me funny.
Monitor: Officer, this suspect is unarmed and is complying. Do not take out your gun
Officer: But...
Captain: Do not take out your gun.

Obviously that's incredibly simplifying a generic situation but if they knew they were being actively watched LIVE, it might deter so many of these horrible crimes.
This would never work because the captain watching the feed is guarateed to be trash, too.
 

LakLak

Alt Account
Banned
Jul 4, 2019
244
The way the paramedic said the words is soul crushing... Life is so fragile.
 

Volimar

volunteer forum janitor
Member
Oct 25, 2017
38,488
That's what the organization CAHOOTS is doing in Eugene, Oregon:




There's folks in Portland (including the mayor) who are expressing interest in adopting a similar program. A group called Care Not Cops has been working since 2017 to organize the community towards a collective vision, planning, and action towards defunding/abolishing police and replacing them with more helpful, humane, and just systems. I highly recommend checking out their website and reading the report they published earlier this year.



This is great info. You might consider making a thread on their efforts.
 
Feb 10, 2018
17,534
They are so dam cavalier about everything.

The restraining method must be the wrong way, bad training and dumb cops.

The lack of seriousness about the job is a big problem, they are acting like a group of young men at the end of a shift in a kitchen.
Police work is not something you can joke around, it's a serious job and these men did not take it seriously enough.

Are there any police here? Or anyone know if they used the incorrect restraining method?
Judging that it killed Tony, it seems evident that it is the wrong technique.
 
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MaitreWakou

One Winged Slayer
Avenger
May 15, 2018
13,180
Toulouse, France
Fuck those cops. This is awful to watch.
But the paramedic fucked up too. It was probably already too late anyway, but he didn't assess the victim before the injection when the victim is still on the ground. He was unresponsive, even the cops motherfuckers were asking "are you ok ?", but the fuckin officer still pressed with his knee.
Paramedic should have asked him to let him assess the patient. You don't administer medication before assessing the patient.
 

Kronotech

Member
Oct 28, 2017
509
They'd be there to watch people die in first person like a CoD killcam. It would solve nothing.
This 3rd party could have easily told the officers to stand down, stop the choke hold, etc. That's my whole point. It's not to sit there and watch. It's to stop it from ever happening. Hearing the officers speak the way they did was because no one else was listening. Treating him the way they did was because no one else was watching. It took 3 years for this footage to surface.

It's something.
 

bytesized

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
5,882
Amsterdam
These cops sure are bastards and are less deserving of living than the poor guy they assassinated. Hope they rot in jail forever.

Not gonna watch any footage because this sort of injustices fuck me up.
 

Tedesco!

Drive-in Mutant
Member
Oct 30, 2017
689
Can we ever get to the point where the body cams can live stream into a city hub where a Captain (or someone to give them orders) and a 3rd party group can monitor and communicate with the officers? These deaths are preventable and should be stopped while it's happening, not only discussed after the fact.

Officer: I fear for my life. This guy looked at me funny.
Monitor: Officer, this suspect is unarmed and is complying. Do not take out your gun
Officer: But...
Captain: Do not take out your gun.

Obviously that's incredibly simplifying a generic situation but if they knew they were being actively watched LIVE, it might deter so many of these horrible crimes.

This is a good idea, but how would it be funded?
 

mAcOdIn

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,978
Sell all that military surplus bullshit American cops are rolling with nowadays.
To who? I hope not private citizens, but that leaves what, overseas dictators and terrorist groups

Anyways I don't think the answer lies in trying to monitor bullies, I think they just need to be fired instead.
 

Kronotech

Member
Oct 28, 2017
509
This is a good idea, but how would it be funded?
Tax payers. That would be the only way most likely. They would need to bump up taxes or re-allocate funds that aren't being used properly (almost every city in the world has those). That would be for the city to decide as I'm definitely no expert.

But I would gladly pay more state taxes if it meant protecting my neighbors from being murdered.
 

Heshinsi

Member
Oct 25, 2017
16,093
That's what the additional 3rd party is there for. To act as an unbiased viewer.

The only way this works is treating America like how they treat certain countries, and bringing in UN observers to be these 3rd party unbiased viewers. American jurors, prosecutors, judges, police oversight departments, US Federal agencies, White Americans, etc, have already shown a substantial built in bias in favour of police.
 

Tedesco!

Drive-in Mutant
Member
Oct 30, 2017
689
Tax payers. That would be the only way most likely. They would need to bump up taxes or re-allocate funds that aren't being used properly (almost every city in the world has those). That would be for the city to decide as I'm definitely no expert.

But I would gladly pay more state taxes if it meant protecting my neighbors from being murdered.

I'm glad you said it. Almost all reform is going to be done through some raising of taxes. Sadly a lot of people blanch at the idea of having their taxes raised for this. Personally I think the government should also be providing incentives and funding for smaller agencies that can't take on the cost of body cams.
 

Kronotech

Member
Oct 28, 2017
509
The only way this works is treating America like how they treat certain countries, and bringing in UN observers to be these 3rd party unbiased viewers. American jurors, prosecutors, judges, police oversight departments, US Federal agencies, White Americans, etc, have already shown a substantial built in bias in favour of police.
I like this. I think getting the UN involved would be smart.
I'm glad you said it. Almost all reform is going to be done through some raising of taxes. Sadly a lot of people blanch at the idea of having their taxes raised for this. Personally I think the government should also be providing incentives and funding for smaller agencies that can't take on the cost of body cams.
Agreed here. That's where the Left v Right clash on a small level. The way the fight is right now on the national level of raising taxes to fund healthcare, I can see it being a fiery battle. But in the future, this is what we need to push for in order to help cut down on needless deaths. Lives > money. Sadly most people don't see it that way (or are unfortunate to live paycheck to paycheck, where an increase would likely hurt them).

Either way, I know the likelihood of this happening is slim to none but I wouldn't be surprised if something similar eventually catches some steam if the D's get some big wins.
 

Tedesco!

Drive-in Mutant
Member
Oct 30, 2017
689
I like this. I think getting the UN involved would be smart.

Agreed here. That's where the Left v Right clash on a small level. The way the fight is right now on the national level of raising taxes to fund healthcare, I can see it being a fiery battle. But in the future, this is what we need to push for in order to help cut down on needless deaths. Lives > money. Sadly most people don't see it that way (or are unfortunate to live paycheck to paycheck, where an increase would likely hurt them).

Either way, I know the likelihood of this happening is slim to none but I wouldn't be surprised if something similar eventually catches some steam if the D's get some big wins.

You would think it shouldn't be that hard to sell on a national level, just spend a little less on defense and move the funds towards this.
 

EdibleKnife

Member
Oct 29, 2017
7,723
The only way this works is treating America like how they treat certain countries, and bringing in UN observers to be these 3rd party unbiased viewers. American jurors, prosecutors, judges, police oversight departments, US Federal agencies, White Americans, etc, have already shown a substantial built in bias in favour of police.

With the glut of so much of this news, especially recently including the resurgence of news on Eric Garner's public murder, I've actually started two realize how many similarities there are between police and the Catholic Church as institutions with enormous social clout and share in the cultural zeitgeist not just nationally but even globally.

People input so much time, money and effort into the support of the institutions. Both are highly (and naively) trusted and revered by many of the people who are legally/spiritually beholden to their influence. Both are exposed frequently and openly by sourced and reputable investigators for having insidious and vast amounts of criminal activity so starkly and completely opposite to the stated goals and intentions their institution claims (i.e. pretends) they hold. But worst of all both, in the wake of these very public displays of inhumane individuals within their ranks, spend massive amounts of their social capital to not just deny, justify, minimize, bury and/or ignore the allegations but also to exonerate, protect, hide, and reshuffle the positions of those criminal individuals to keep them from facing any sort of punishment; while rarely self-reflecting on or changing the institutions to prevent these incidents. At the most they go through the motions to act like steps will be made to re-adjust for the sake of placating the millions they're supposed to be serving.

Just like you mentioned, the part that people aren't internalizing is that this kind of system isn't separate from the people within it. Both in law enforcement (lawyers, judges, fellow cops, etc) and within the clergy (bishops, priests, more lawyers, & even parents), there are hundreds and hundreds of people have to see and take in these blatant incidents, decide they aren't worth directly addressing and going through the effort to push whatever button and pull whatever lever is required at that point in the hierarchy to keep these criminals and monsters from paying any price for their crime. There are so many individuals directly in the loop of making sure justice is served and consciously, purposefully choose to do whatever they specifically need to to forever deny justice to the victims left in the wake of the violence committed. So many who value the image and ideal of their institutions over honesty, truth and the lives of other human beings.
 
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BakedTanooki

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,723
Germany
Man, this makes me incredibly sad and angry. The fact that they killed him like that is already bad enough.
But the way they are talking about him, laughing and making jokes etc. adds another layer of anger inside of me.

And then you have the the fact, that they all can just get away with it.

Too many feels. Definitely need some distraction now. It always hurts extra hard when I see people who are "weak" and in need of help, getting threatened like a piece of shit :(