Your tone of voice determines the pronouns assigned to you in Cyberpunk 2077

[daegan]

It's really fucking infuriating/exhausting watching threads about CDPR's transphobia get 4 pages while positive threads about the game get way more attention. Era, the supposed "liberal bastion" of the internet, stops caring abt LGBT people the second it gets in the way of "muh viddy gaem".

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I don't post a lot in these because I feel like I don't have anything to add. I say this as someone who is really excited for the game: this is infuriating.
It does seem like something that can be fixed (the character creation has already evolved a lot since it was first shown and in regards to the gender options I believe you can chalk that up to online feedback. Hopefully they're still listening.
I still intend to donate to a Polish Trans charity the amount I spend on the game (A poster here recommended trans-fuzja.)

 

[metalslimer]

Everytime I think they have made progress they show their ass

 

[Messofanego]

There was a single moment where they did alright by firing the gamergator guy and then a character creation option but this is the 6th or 7th bigotry related controversy. From the racial stereotypes going all the way back to the Indian cab driver to the voodoo gang and now more stereotypes, to the transphobic tweets on social media, then the fetishistic transphobic in-game poster, and now this voice kind of transphobia. Like at a point, you gotta stop giving the developer chances and hope they'll only change things when enough people criticise them because they're so ill-equipped to figure it by themselves.

It just highlights what the lack of diversity does for a developer team. Do they have any trans or non-binary folks on the team? Any South Asians or Latinx folks who have say on such matters? I doubt it. Even if they did, it's not showing in their actions.

Overall, CDPR employed 1,044 people at the end of 2019, which is up 18 percent from 2018. 84 percent of people worked for the CD Projekt Red game development groups, and the remaining 16 percent worked for GOG.com. Of the 872 people who worked for CDPR at the end of 2019, 640 were men and 232 were women.​

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Overall, women make up 26 percent of CDPR's total staff, which is an increase from 2018.​

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CDPR also announced that 21 percent of its employees are foreign nationals, which seems to demonstrate that people are very enthusiastic about joining the developer. That makes sense, given The Witcher is one of the biggest and most acclaimed franchises in gaming, and Cyberpunk 2077 also has a lot of hype behind it. At the end of 2019, CDPR employed people from 44 different foreign countries, including Ukraine (28 people), Russia (22 people), Spain (17 people), Canada (17 people), the United States (16 people), the United Kingdom (15 people), France (15 people), Italy (14 people), and Germany (14 people).​

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Additionally, the developer confirmed that it employs four people with disabilities, noting that it has undertaken "every effort" to adapt its workplace setup to suit their needs.​

 

[ItIsOkBro]

The problem may be if the protagonists speak of themselves with expressions like "I am a man of my word". You would need to record new lines of dialogue.

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Isn't this a problem in and of itself? If you're writing a shitton of lines like this then they just don't get it / don't care

 

[Patsy]

Patsy, you're gonna have to pull me out a chair to fall into the next time you go laying out so much truth in one go like that.

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AAAAA ;A; I will the next time, I promise!! <3

Hilarious when people say something along the lines of "OT is much better, Gaming side is the only bad side", because not only is that not true, but I'm literally here because of my love for video games. I can't just fucking ignore Gaming side & ignore their insane ignorance, transphobia & other shit. God, be fucking better. At the very least stop always trying to fucking counter our posts with some snarky or willfully ignorant shit as if that is the only way you people can sleep easy at night. I'd love to say "it's fucking video games", but then someone would probably be like "see! then why do you care about trans rep in cp2077?!" lmao

 

[Yabberwocky]

Everytime I think they have made progress they show their ass

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This. What the fuck.

 

[cyrribrae]

Hmm. This sounds really shitty, but there's a possibility this isn't the worst thing (but no, it's not likely). First of all, regardless, the character themselves have to acknowledge the gender identity they assign to themselves. Period. And it has to be a choice. If that's not achieved (which is the implication of the OP), then we're done and this is absolute crap.

However, if other people in the world don't respect that distinction (or are unaware), I don't necessarily find that inherently transphobic. Now, if they do go that route, then they also need to provide dialogue options to correct people when they're wrong (that could be a nightmare though). If that happens, then I don't necessarily expect everyone to respect your own choices or self-image. In fact, it could be a REALLY COOL character and world thing to have people respond to your outward appearance and presentation one way, and then have the opportunity to adjust that based on your interactions.

But.. that's probably asking for too much. Anyway.

 

[Madison]

I still intend to donate to a Polish Trans charity the amount I spend on the game (A poster here recommended trans-fuzja.)

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This is a pretty good idea, they would certainly use my money better than the exploitative top hats of CDPR

 

[Fredrik]

This might be easy in English, but it's a nightmare in most of the languages they dub these games into.

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Why is that? I'm thinking if people can live there it can't be too difficult to get this right. But considering how soon the game will be out it'll be difficult to change things in time.

 

[JDSN]

Kinda fucking disgusting how people here are low-key implying transphobia is a planned gameplay mechanic. Fuck off

 

[Xaszatm]

What's annoying is that Cyberpunk is heavily into body modification. People do shit like wire their body to the internet, strap a million eyes into their skin, robotocize themselves, and thousands of fantasitical modifications yet I'm supposed to believe that no one ever thought "vocal modification as gender only isn't a good idea"?

Then again, the original Cyberpunk RPG had issues with transphobia since the emphasis on "loss of humanity via the machine" meant that even minor things like gender surgery costed "humanity". So I guess it's just reliving on old legacy.

 

[Miracle Ache]

It just keeps piling up...

How much transphobia does one company need to display before people will admit there's a problem?

 

[Xaszatm]

It just keeps piling up...

How much transphobia does one company need to display before people will admit there's a problem?

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At this point CD PR could directly say they are transphobic and we'd still get idiots diving in front of the company. Hell it's arguable they did that on twitter last year and people still jumped to defend their nonexistent honor.

 

[PaperSparrow]

Kinda fucking disgusting how people here are low-key implying transphobia is a planned gameplay mechanic. Fuck off

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The "best" part is that there is always people justifying bigotry in every time period, fantasy-based or not. Fucking can't even let people have the future.

 

[B.O.O.M.]

oh ffs that seems like a really dumb thing to do

 

[XRoute]

Hi, my name is Martin Propokona and I'm a developer at CD Projekt RED

On behalf of our studio I want to announce that we will take into consideration the issue at hand in this thread, as well as other problems brought to our attention by the wonderful ResetEra community, and will fiercely resolve such matters after the game release... as soon, and only if, it surpasses the targeted 80 million units sold.

Until then we have nothing else to declare.

CD Projekt RED wishes you all a good gay... i mean day.

Sorry.

 

[Uzupedro]

This does not make any sense. What is the logic in making the game choose the pronoun for you? Wtf

 

[Atolm]

It's really fucking infuriating/exhausting watching threads about CDPR's transphobia get 4 pages while positive threads about the game get way more attention. Era, the supposed "liberal bastion" of the internet, stops caring abt LGBT people the second it gets in the way of "muh viddy gaem".

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Because in the end, most users on Era don't care about these issues, and in case they care, they shut up their mouths because of the erratic and trigger-happy ban policy. Why get involved, when anything outside of the official line of the forum will get you banned.

 

[Mona]

its becoming clear that whatever their intentions or commitment may have been (perhaps little), they're just not understanding the issue

 

[The Turbanator]

Why is that? I'm thinking if people can live there it can't be too difficult to get this right. But considering how soon the game will be out it'll be difficult to change things in time.

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Some languages are heavily gendered, in that the way a person speaks may depend on their own gender or those of others, and non-binary styles of speech are non-existent.

 

[Eugene's Axe]

This game hasn't released yet and I'm already tired of it. Too much edginess for my taste.

 

[Captain of Outer Space]

I'm quickly losing interest in this game.

 

[Pargon]

Hmm. This sounds really shitty, but there's a possibility this isn't the worst thing (but no, it's not likely). First of all, regardless, the character themselves have to acknowledge the gender identity they assign to themselves. Period. And it has to be a choice. If that's not achieved (which is the implication of the OP), then we're done and this is absolute crap.

However, if other people in the world don't respect that distinction (or are unaware), I don't necessarily find that inherently transphobic. Now, if they do go that route, then they also need to provide dialogue options to correct people when they're wrong (that could be a nightmare though). If that happens, then I don't necessarily expect everyone to respect your own choices or self-image. In fact, it could be a REALLY COOL character and world thing to have people respond to your outward appearance and presentation one way, and then have the opportunity to adjust that based on your interactions.

But.. that's probably asking for too much. Anyway.

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It's a video game - and not one where life as a trans person is a central theme, as it could be for Dontnod's Tell Me Why.
CDPR don't need to include transphobia or fetishism to go along with the option to create a trans character.
It would not be "really cool" to have your character misgendered by the game and make a mechanic out of correcting it, or have specific insults/slurs thrown your way to make your enemies seem more despicable.
Trans people deal with enough shit on a daily basis - there's no need to put it in video games too.

And the issue with the game is not about self-image.
The issue is that your gender is determined by the voice you pick, not that you are misgendered by your appearance (not that your appearance should determine your gender either).

I don't think cyberpunk necessarily is supposed to have less discrimination. This isn't exactly a future where things get better for humanity

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I wouldn't say that it's a world which is supposed to have less discrimination.
But it's a future where things like body modification and cybernetic augmentation is commonplace - so you would expect that being trans is far more accepted.

 

[Senator Toadstool]

Why not just select your pronouns?

 

[QuinchoOsito]

This is just awful. Like others have said here, when the character creator stuff came out a year ago or so I thought maybe they were finally starting to get it and making positive changes, but this pretty much confirms that it's not a coincidence that they keep "messing up" in the exact same way toward the exact same group of people. There's no way I'm buying this game now.

 

[Deleted member 25606]

The "best" part is that there is always people justifying bigotry in every time period, fantasy-based or not. Fucking can't even let people have the future.

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I always like to recommend the Netflix co-funded show from Brazil, 3% which is set in a futuristic dystopia yet still manages to show a shitty post major disaster have and have not society while also being diverse and accepting of non-white, gay, and trans characters that are just accepted as equal people by both those at the top and bottom.

Dystopian Hellscape =\= Bigotry

 

[cyrribrae]

It's a video game - and not one where life as a trans person is a central theme, as it could be for Dontnod's Tell Me Why.
CDPR don't need to include transphobia or fetishism to go along with the option to create a trans character.
It would not be "really cool" to have your character misgendered by the game and make a mechanic out of correcting it, or have specific insults/slurs thrown your way to make your enemies seem more despicable.
Trans people deal with enough shit on a daily basis - there's no need to put it in video games too.

And the issue with the game is not about self-image.
The issue is that your gender is determined by the voice you pick, not that you are misgendered by your appearance (not that your appearance should determine your gender either).

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I get what you're saying. But that's also not what we expect from good ways of handling these issues in other games. It's certainly not what TLOU2 is getting praised (and hated) for. That said, I of course also understand that many people would find that hard and wouldn't be interested in dealing with that. But I wouldn't dismiss it out of hand for the exact same reason. That said, I don't expect Cyberpunk to do this and I don't think they'd even want to try.

So.. yes.. we agree. As I said, if it is the case (again, as is suggested by the OP, but I'm not sure has actually been confirmed in any meaningful way) that you have no agency over your gender identity other than by an unrelated setting, then of course that's unacceptable and ridiculous. If even that baseline isn't reached, none of the rest of it matters.

 

[SilverX]

What the fuck is their problem? This is like some subtle, passive aggressive bullying to the trans audience..... the same audience they have targeted and bullied in the past.

Is a studio/publisher really THAT low that they'd risk their reputation to do things like this? I call bullshit that they aren't aware of how this offends people, anyone with common sense could see it

 

[Darkkahn]

If you're this tall you're a He and if you are this tall you're a She!

 

[pizzabutt]

Some languages are heavily gendered, in that the way a person speaks may depend on their own gender or those of others, and non-binary styles of speech are non-existent.

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I can only speak for Spanish but there are countless Spanish speaking trans people who have created and are coming up with new ways of expressing gender variance in binary languages. I'm sure it's the same in other languages. Language is not a set in stone thing and is constantly evolving.

 

[JustInsane]

This is dumb, I thought you just choose your pronouns.. Guess not. Let's hope they correct this before launch.

 

[Deleted member 3038]

3-steps forward, 9-steps back with CDPR it seems.

 

[mozbar]

This is something I've been thinking about too. Pondsmith wrote the Cyberpunk bible when it comes to this game, and is allegedly deeply involved in creative decisions. Does this gender portrayal reflect his view of the Cyberpunk 2020 world? I found this response from the media ambassador for the company publishing the pen-and-paper Cyberpunk game. Reading this quote, it's hard for me to see how people involved with the pen-and-paper game would be okay with how gender is treated in 2077 as displayed so far. But I haven't heard about Mike saying anything in relation to gender options in 2077.

Cyberpunk 2020 and gender-affirmation surgery | Tabletop Roleplaying Open

Eh, there's a pretty good Ship of Theseus argument to be made for cyber-psychosis. But then again we couldn't possibly know this becasue we don't know enough about consciousness and the brain to what full body replacements and brain implants/augmentations will do. Yeah, we're still working out...

forum.rpg.net

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Based on this, it seems the folks at R. Talsorian got their heads and hearts in the right place. Perhaps it's a case of the marketing team highlighting the wrong things, or exec meddling or a potpourri of things.

I'm hesitant to 'cancel' the game based on something that hasn't yet being experienced by the public at large. It's a large RPG with a multitude of options too. I'm unsure if any of the people invited to play it so far have been from the community (and could perhaps assuage our concerns).

I was thinking of pre-ordering it....but I'll adopt a wait and see approach. Money is already tight as it is, and I don't want to give it to a company mired in these issues.

I just got a copy of Cyberpunk Red, and I'll be reading it throughout the week.

 

[ShroudOfFate]

I always like to recommend the Netflix co-funded show from Brazil, 3% which is set in a futuristic dystopia yet still manages to show a shitty post major disaster have and have not society while also being diverse and accepting of non-white, gay, and trans characters that are just accepted as equal people by both those at the top and bottom.

Dystopian Hellscape =\= Bigotry

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Correct. Living in a dystopian future does not make everyone accepting of one another. However, if you design your game in a way that has been repeatedly shown to not be open to the idea of trans culture (I can't think of what else to call it) that IS bigotry. The fact that the character has a gender neutral name that NPC's call you is the easiest thing in the world to just not use gendered pronouns, yet CDPR chose this route. This dev has some real problems it needs to sort out.

 

[Pargon]

I get what you're saying. But that's also not what we expect from good ways of handling these issues in other games. It's certainly not what TLOU2 is getting praised (and hated) for. That said, I of course also understand that many people would find that hard and wouldn't be interested in dealing with that. But I wouldn't dismiss it out of hand for the exact same reason. That said, I don't expect Cyberpunk to do this and I don't think they'd even want to try.

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I'm not saying that games shouldn't try to tackle these issues—I expect that Tell Me Why will.
I'm saying that there's no reason for this open-world cyberpunk RPG to start misgendering the player or throwing specific insults at them because they chose to create a trans character.
The people most likely to create a trans character will be trans players—who are already very familiar with anything the game will throw at them for being trans.
Adding "mechanics" like being able to correct someone is not making this a better or more immersive experience for these players - it's making the game worse.
Instead of hoping to play a game which lets you create a character that is like you and being treated normally for it, now it's bringing that hate into the "safe space" of video games.

In linear games which have defined characters and a story to tell, there's a way to do this right - and I hope that Tell Me Why does.
In an open-world RPG with a character creator that has nothing to say about trans people, there's no reason for it to be there.

 

[Eeyore]

It's really fucking infuriating/exhausting watching threads about CDPR's transphobia get 4 pages while positive threads about the game get way more attention. Era, the supposed "liberal bastion" of the internet, stops caring abt LGBT people the second it gets in the way of "muh viddy gaem".

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I can't imagine how trans people feel about this. Our forum and gaming in general has a long way to go to be a place for inclusion and empathy in these situations. I hope CDPR changes their mind on this.

I can't say I haven't been guilty of your latter statement at points too, I and many of us have to do better.

 

[brawndolicious]

For trans people, isn't the first thing you change your voice through training and practice? I only have a couple friends in that group and that's what they say about their early transition years. I'm trying to be devil's advocate here but if CDPR's letting you go with opposite extremes of physical appearance versus voice tone (IE: very masculine appearance with feminine voice) then to me, it sounds like they're focusing on letting the part that you have the most immediate control over be what determines the pronoun you want to go by.

Now I'm not saying that they didn't fuck up as you have intersex/gender nonconforming people as well and at this point, none of us know exactly how player gender affects any of the writing in the game. But to me, it sounds like they tried to come up with a logical system of achieving the morally correct result and accidentally left out part of society. In which case, it should be easy for them to fix with a dialog pronoun toggle in the character creation screen but I'm not at the point where I would assume some overt or subconscious bigotry.

Feel free to shame me if there's more to this story that I missed.

Edit: It seems that changing your voice is not something you have to do in transition or that most would even want to do. Which makes sense as people have a lot of variation in their vocal qualities within the same gender. Looking at CDPR's decision, it does seem like they made the wrong choice but I don't know if they were ignorant like I am or what. I definitely want to see what their response is going to be.

 

[Boss]

This is a horrible, and hateful decision and there was no reason to go down this route.

 

[Ketkat]

For trans people, isn't the first thing you change your voice through training and practice? I only have a couple friends in that group and that's what they say about their early transition years. I'm trying to be devil's advocate here but if CDPR's letting you go with opposite extremes of physical appearance versus voice tone (IE: very masculine appearance with feminine voice) then to me, it sounds like they're focusing on letting the part that you have the most immediate control over be what determines the pronoun you want to go by.

Now I'm not saying that they didn't fuck up as you have intersex/gender nonconforming people as well and at this point, none of us know exactly how player gender affects any of the writing in the game. But to me, it sounds like they tried to come up with a logical system of achieving the morally correct result and accidentally left out part of society. In which case, it should be easy for them to fix with a dialog pronoun toggle in the character creation screen but I'm not at the point where I would assume some overt or subconscious bigotry.

Feel free to shame me if there's more to this story that I missed.

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No, voice training is not usually one of the very first things people work towards. It's much much harder and takes quite a bit longer than you're probably imagining. There are people that are also okay with their voices and don't really want to change them. That doesn't mean that they want to go by pronouns that are dictated by everyone around them

 

[Boss]

I'm shocked that a company with a history of transphobia would do something as tone-deaf as this. What doesn't shock me is how it's still defended, like how many free passes are they allowed?

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Yeah, at this point it's a fucking pattern. They've had plenty of time to learn from their past mistakes and decided to not give a fuck.

 

[MaverickHunterAsh]

Staggeringly and atrociously embarrassing if true. My already shaky interest in this game continues to drop. I'm perfectly happy to skip it if they don't address this.

 

[RowdyReverb]

Why not just select your pronouns?

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I'm guessing they have two protagonist voice actors and timed the conversations to go with them. If you select one voice for your character and apply the opposite actor's NPC responses, the NPCs could step on your character's lines or have awkward pauses in conversation. Not trying to apologize for CDPR because it is problematic, but I think the solution is going to be a technical one

 

[brawndolicious]

No, voice training is not usually one of the very first things people work towards. It's much much harder and takes quite a bit longer than you're probably imagining. There are people that are also okay with their voices and don't really want to change them. That doesn't mean that they want to go by pronouns that are dictated by everyone around them

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By "not usually" you mean the majority of trans people don't change their voice first/at all? Like their first alterations were hormones or surgeries? The ones I know took like five years from when they came out before taking a pill.

 

[m0dus]

The voice choice is binary, not a sliding scale. Also they have known for at least a year they wanted to do this 'mixing and matching', coming up with a horrible system like this is inexcusable.

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I misspoke when I said slider, but I think the concept of a flag being set is the key here—something that could be reassigned to a dedicated gender / pronoun option. The problem being is that even if they move it, it's still a binary choice, and a non-binary option would still need to be programmed.

 

[Ketkat]

By "not usually" you mean the majority of trans people don't change their voice first/at all? Like their first alterations were hormones or surgeries? The ones I know took like five years from when they came out before taking a pill.

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It really varies from person to person. There aren't a lot of surgeries that can happen unless you've already been on hormones for 2 years, and most people i know come out to people around them and start hormones as soon as possible. Some countries make this difficult with multi year long waiting lists, but in my experience voice training comes after hormones in most cases.

Most people do change their voices at some point, but not everyone can or does.

 

[HockeyBird]

You should just be able to select your pronouns and voice individually. I don't buy the having to record more lines excuse. For one, if they did this properly at the beginning, they could have planned for it. It's been a year since they originally caught flak for their transphobic stuff so they had a year to do proper trans options like they said they would. Also how many lines of total can there be where the player character refers to themselves by their gender? I imagine pretty small in comparison to the whole game. Presumably, the presumably have already recorded lines calling the player he or her so they wouldn't need to re-record lines for the binary options.

 

[Osu 16 Bit]

Not only do I disagree that most trans people change their voice first but getting into a discussion about when and what order trans people do hormones or surgery is DEFINITELY a very sensitive subject. All of that varies based on what the trans person wants and can do financially and legally. A great deal of trans people don't even want any surgery. None of this matters anyway. Nobody's gender and the pronounces used should be based on what you have or haven't done to change your body.

 

[roguesquirrel]

By "not usually" you mean the majority of trans people don't change their voice first/at all? Like their first alterations were hormones or surgeries? The ones I know took like five years from when they came out before taking a pill.

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im just going to go out on a limb based on my experience that if it took them years to start HRT its because there were significant hurdles to starting it you werent privvy to (maybe financial, i know other countries have waiting lists, could have had a hard time finding a good therapist if they dont have a clinic that offers informed consent). i could be wrong because every trans person has their own unique path, but generally speaking you dont wait several years to start hormones just because.

 

[Deleted member 25606]

Correct. Living in a dystopian future does not make everyone accepting of one another. However, if you design your game in a way that has been repeatedly shown to not be open to the idea of trans culture (I can't think of what else to call it) that IS bigotry. The fact that the character has a gender neutral name that NPC's call you is the easiest thing in the world to just not use gendered pronouns, yet CDPR chose this route. This dev has some real problems it needs to sort out.

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I think your missing my point. I am saying that you don't have to engage in bigotry to do a dystopian environment. The show I mention does a bleak dystopian future, yet non white, gay, and trans people exist in the universe as equals without their stories having anything to do with their identity status and they are excepted as equals with no emphasis to skin color, sexuality, or gender identity (and the main trans character I speak of is not passing yet she is she with no misgendering or other transphobia) by both the oppressors and oppressed.

I am saying that there is no need to include bigotry to set the stage (unless that is the point such as The Handmaid's tale and I don't think that is what cyberpunk is shooting for) and considering the history it's not only suspect but I personally believe transphobia is part of CD Projekts culture.

As a trans person who is also disabled, cares for my elderly mother and part time cares for special needs niece the last thing I need (and I am not saying there isn't a time and place for heavy/controversial subjects in games I am enjoying last of us part II right now and if possible would love to eventually play Tell Me Why) in my escapist entertainment I use to decompress is a game that is telling me I am subhuman, especially if it's "for effect" or to "set a scene" and double that when it comes from a company that I feel must have a culture that feels I am subhuman.

As I said in an earlier post I will not buy not only this game but any of their games, not even used and while I don't have a PC if I did I would not give GOG business, that's how strongly I feel on the issue and what I think of the track record of said company.

I can't get any more transparent or definitive about what I feel or mean than that, I am not good with words or putting my thoughts into written form, at least not compared to what is in my head or in a face to face talk.

 

[El Bombastico]

Why was it so hard for them to just let the player choose their pronoun preference? Why do this stupid shit???