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Oct 27, 2017
1,227
I don't understand why well-regulated capitalism with a robust welfare state and a sustainability-oriented industrial policy is not a long-term strategy.

In my opinion, it is the only demonstrably long-term strategy that has been proved out. It is the best of all of the workable alternatives that we have. It is certainly not perfect (no system ever will be), but this is a case of the perfect being the enemy of the good.

I believe that there are no better places on earth now across all denominators than places where social democrats (i.e., center-left) run the show.

Where you have hard left and hard right, you have a shitshow. Where you have center-right, you have the verge of a shitshow.
Because capitalism is fundamentally at odds with a welfare state and vice versa.

Calling something hard left is subjective and in itself not a criticism of anything. It varies from country to country, and even today's status quo is hard left compared to the past's status quo.

I don't see how a communist state would hold itself together in the aftermath. Are you trying to gotcha me with providing an example to prove something? The American Revolution comes to mind. They actually had it in writing at that.
I'm not trying to gotcha you or anything. Everyone is drawing on historical context and it's hard to know what you're arguing for without an example.

The American revolution isn't something that's going to work on a broader scale. Not every revolution here is a colony trying to break free of a distant government. Instead we're talking about overthrowing historically self imposed power structures. It's also a revolution that ended with the sort of the inequality we're trying to overthrow, and it's a revolution that required an eventual civil to cement its government. It's a good example but it's not the path you'd follow today. It's certainly not the sort of revolution you'd see in America all over again. The American government isn't going to abide a separatist group forming its own government and army.
 

Zen

The Wise Ones
Member
Nov 1, 2017
9,658
I'm not trying to gotcha you or anything. Everyone is drawing on historical context.

The American revolution isn't something that's going to work on a broader scale. Not every revolution here is a colony trying to break free of a distant government. Instead we're talking about overthrowing historically self imposed power structures. It's also a revolution that ended with the sort of the inequality we're trying to overthrow, and it's a revolution that required an eventual civil to cement its government. It's a good example but it's not the path you'd follow today. It's certainly not the sort of revolution you'd see in America all over again. The American government isn't going to abide a separatist group forming its own government and army.
I mean that's also part of my point. The existing government would never abide the dismantling of the founding ideologies present in the constitution so it would to come to violence at some point imo. I used that more to show that revolutions have had goals and plans for the longterm. A change of this scale is going to need organization and planning for the future if it's to be lasting. And I don't see how a communist society could stay afloat for very long, particularly the US, which would have its rivals jumping at the opportunity to remove it from the table.
 
Oct 27, 2017
7,696
Because capitalism is fundamentally at odds with a welfare state and vice versa.

Calling something hard left is subjective and in itself not a criticism of anything. It varies from country to country, and even today's status quo is hard left compared to the past's status quo.
Politics, by its very nature, pits interest groups against each other in many (if not most) circumstances. It is naive to believe that things should be solely managed in a top-down command and control manner -OR- solely in a ruleless bottom-up libertopia. A mix of the 2 (where each makes sense) yields the best result. The welfare state and competition-based capitalistic markets are actually a check onto one another. This is exactly why they yield an ideal system rather than the aforementioned extremes.
 

Gyro Zeppeli

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,289
I don't understand why well-regulated capitalism with a robust welfare state and a sustainability-oriented industrial policy is not a long-term strategy.

In my opinion, it is the only demonstrably long-term strategy that has been proved out. It is the best of all of the workable alternatives that we have. It is certainly not perfect (no system ever will be), but this is a case of the perfect being the enemy of the good.

I believe that there are no better places on earth now across all denominators than places where social democrats (i.e., center-left) run the show.

Where you have hard left and hard right, you have a shitshow. Where you have center and center-right, you have the verge of a shitshow (to varying degrees depending on how much to the right).

The web of corporations who are intertwined with lobbyists and various politicians is so bad in America at this point, I very much doubt a center-left system akin to a social democracy can take place. Perhaps first and foremost, money must be decoupled from the government, then I can see such a change become a long-term reality. An amendment to remove money from politics needs to be done.
 
Oct 27, 2017
1,227
Politics, by its very nature, pits interest groups against each other in many (if not most) circumstances. It is naive to believe that things should be solely managed in a top-down command and control manner -OR- solely in a ruleless bottom-up libertopia. A mix of the 2 (where each makes sense) yields the best result. The welfare state and competition-based capitalistic markets are actually a check onto one another. This is exactly why they yield an ideal system rather than the aforementioned extremes.
Again, you're just using pejorative circular logic. It's not "naive", nor would it be a "shitshow". It doesn't yield an ideal system, because this isn't a place where you're going to get some sort of healthy stalemate. It's not going to work if capitalists can just buy influence, which is inevitable. No amount of regulation will stop that. Less money inherently means less freedom. The more inequality a system allows for, the more it marginalizes the poor. Competition based capitalistic markets certainly don't benefit the poor as much as a socialist state would. Someone born into a society, ignorant of their socioeconomic standing, would always prefer a more socialist state. Therefore a socialist state is better.

It's fallacious to think that something is good just because it's a middle ground, or that something is just bad because it's an arbitrary distance from an arbitrarily defined center. It's a bad method of figuring out the best result. It's not like we're talking about throwing out all competing interest groups anyway.
 
Oct 27, 2017
7,696
Again, you're just using pejorative circular logic. It's not "naive", nor would it be a "shitshow". It doesn't yield an ideal system, because this isn't a place where you're going to get some sort of healthy stalemate. It's not going to work if capitalists can just buy influence, which is inevitable. No amount of regulation will stop that. Less money inherently means less freedom. The more inequality a system allows for, the more it marginalizes the poor. Competition based capitalistic markets certainly don't benefit the poor as much as a socialist state would. Someone born into a society, ignorant of their socioeconomic standing, would always prefer a more socialist state. Therefore a socialist state is better.

It's fallacious to think that something is good just because it's a middle ground, or that something is just bad because it's an arbitrary distance from an arbitrarily defined center. It's a bad method of figuring out the best result. It's not like we're talking about throwing out all competing interest groups anyway.
I'm not using reductive logic to figure this out: I'm looking to historic and current governance implementations. You are using reductive logic. You are discounting the need for markets to efficiently allocate resources for their best use. Doling out everything in rationed portions does not work. There is no AI driven society, now or in the future, that this will work in or be facilitated by.

The idea is to make things more even, more egalitarian...not strictly egalitarian. Incompetent, unskilled people make terrible choices on how to allocate resources and effort (just look at Venezuela!). Some sort of integrated meritocracy is inevitable for this reason, even if it is impossible to implement fully justly. This is also the reason that China moved in this direction economically.

The way you compensate for this is with redistribution of wealth and resources via social programs and investment in public works after they've been earned in a competitive market. It is incredibly short-sighted to think monetary incentives don't drive innovation at all. They absolutely do...just not to the extent or scale implemented in a place like US at the moment.

By having the taxes of the rich pay for the schooling, healthcare, etc. of the poor, you provide the poor with a more equal playing field to elevate their socioeconomic status by. This is why Scandinavian countries have the best social mobility in the world, far surpassing other industrialized countries like the US.

Also, my position is not centrist. Again, within the context of the global political spectrum, I am advocating for a center left stance. Social democrats occupy this territory. There is no real social democratic representation in America at the party level. The Democrats in the US are center to center-right and the Republicans center-right to right-right.
 
Oct 27, 2017
1,227
I'm not using reductive logic to figure this out: I'm looking to historic and current governance implementations. You are using reductive logic. You are discounting the need for markets to efficiently allocate resources for their best use. Doling out everything in rationed portions does not work. There is no AI driven society, now or in the future, that this will work in or be facilitated by.

The idea is to make things more even, more egalitarian...not strictly egalitarian.

The way you compensate for this is with redistribution of wealth and resources via social programs and investment in public works after they've been earned in a competitive market. It is incredibly short-sighted to think monetary incentives don't drive innovation at all. They absolutely do...just not to the extent or scale implemented in a place like US at the moment.

By having the taxes of the rich pay for the schooling, healthcare, etc. of the poor, you provide the poor with a more equal playing field to elevate their socioeconomic status by. This is why Scandinavian countries have the best social mobility in the world, far surpassing other industrialized countries like the US.

Also, my position is not centrist. Again, within the context of the global political spectrum, I am advocating for a center left stance. Social democrats occupy this territory. There is no real social democratic representation in America at the party level. The Democrats in the US are center to center-right and the Republicans center-right to right-right.
I'm not using reductive logic, just Rawlsian social contract theory which isn't exactly reductive. I never said anything about reductive logic, not that it's necessarily bad. I'm calling you out for appealing to ridicule and circular logic.

Innovation happened for centuries without monetary incentive. Gallileo, Socrates, Einstein, Copernicus, Newton, etc, didn't have monetary incentives. Monetary incentives are a very recent convention and certainly not a requirement.

Incompetent, unskilled people make terrible choices on how to allocate resources and effort (just look at Venezuela!). Some sort of integrated meritocracy is inevitable for this reason, even if it is impossible to implement fully justly.

This is social darwinism, which is discredited bullshit.
 
Oct 27, 2017
7,696
I'm not using reductive logic, just Rawlsian social contract theory which isn't exactly reductive. I never said anything about reductive logic, not that it's necessarily bad. I'm calling you out for appealing to ridicule and circular logic.

Innovation happened for centuries without monetary incentive. Gallileo, Socrates, Einstein, Copernicus, Newton, etc, didn't have monetary incentives. Monetary incentives are a very recent convention and certainly not a requirement.



This is social darwinism, which is discredited bullshit.
This response is contrived and theoretical in nature (Rawlsian Theory is almost completely hypothetical in nature, as all people are aware of their own circumstances).. Monetary incentives and meritocracies, fairly implemented on the front end, are not at all "Social Darwinism". They are incredibly successful in terms of creating wealth and value add services and goods in absolute terms, judging by the excess produced via the global economy. What part of redistributive economics on the backend looks like Social Darwinism? This is a ridiculous assertion, if you even read my post.

Also, all the examples you've listed in terms of people were either compensated or had patrons providing for them. Just because they weren't millionaires doesn't mean they could afford to work for free.

Can you give concrete historic and modern day examples of successful strictly socialistic forms of governance that govern millions of people?
 
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FeistyBoots

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,506
Southern California
As I noted initially, all talk, no plans. A revolution built on "this sucks, let's burn it down and trust us to figure out how to rebuild later" simply isn't going to happen. In a world where people willingly DIE to "own the libs" on health insurance, far too much credit is given to the as-yet unsupported assumption that just because people are fed up and "lay down in the gears of the machine" they will follow YOUR unproven and undefined goals.

Especially if violent revolution is involved. People will rightly fight you to be self-deterministic. Do you really think people who have shit jobs for shit wages are going to just do the jobs the post-capitalist society would demand they fill? That's never going to happen.
 
Oct 27, 2017
1,227
This response is contrived and theoretical in nature. Monetary incentives and meritocracies, fairly implemented on the front end, are not at all "Social Darwinism". They are incredibly successful in terms of creating wealth and value add services and goods in absolute terms, judging by the excess produced via the global economy. What part of redistributive economics on the backend looks like Social Darwinism? This is a ridiculous assertion, if you even read my post.

Also, all the examples you've listed in terms of people were either compensated or had patrons providing for them. Just because they weren't millionaires doesn't mean they could afford to work for free.

Can you give concrete historic and modern day examples of successful strictly socialistic forms of governance that govern millions of people?
You don't understand. Social Darwinism is when you argue for survival of the fittest within society, and use it to explain why poor people are poor and should be poorer than rich people. It's bullshit.

The examples didn't have patrons providing monetary incentive for innovation. They were chosen for that reason.

We're not getting anywhere with this argument. Especially when you think poor people are just incompetent and lazy.
As I noted initially, all talk, no plans. A revolution built on "this sucks, let's burn it down and trust us to figure out how to rebuild later" simply isn't going to happen. In a world where people willingly DIE to "own the libs" on health insurance, far too much credit is given to the as-yet unsupported assumption that just because people are fed up and "lay down in the gears of the machine" they will follow YOUR unproven and undefined goals.

Especially if violent revolution is involved. People will rightly fight you to be self-deterministic. Do you really think people who have shit jobs for shit wages are going to just do the jobs the post-capitalist society would demand they fill? That's never going to happen.
You're just projecting your complacency and cynicism on other people. Better to do nothing than aspire to something better, right? There are plenty revolutions going on right now without a roadmap. Lots of people are willing to work for changes.
 

Deleted member 25600

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 29, 2017
5,701
Especially if violent revolution is involved. People will rightly fight you to be self-deterministic. Do you really think people who have shit jobs for shit wages are going to just do the jobs the post-capitalist society would demand they fill? That's never going to happen.
Why do you automatically assume a post-capitalist society would force people to fill job niches?
 
Oct 27, 2017
7,696
You don't understand. Social Darwinism is when you argue for survival of the fittest within society, and use it to explain why poor people are poor and should be poorer than rich people. It's bullshit.

The examples didn't have patrons providing monetary incentive for innovation. They were chosen for that reason.

We're not getting anywhere with this argument. Especially when you think poor people are just incompetent and lazy.

You're just projecting your complacency and cynicism on other people. Better to do nothing than aspire to something better, right? There are plenty revolutions going on right now without a roadmap. Lots of people are willing to work for changes.
This is bullshit. I didn't say poor people are incompetent or lazy. I said it is not a good utilization of resources to put incompetent or unskilled people in charge of their use, especially at scale like when running a business or governmental entity (see Donald Trump). Completely mischaracterized what I said because you are not reading. People have been compensated in one form or another since the dawn of markets and bartering. Your post is disengenous at best, in bad faith at worst. Trying to say the people you stated had no form of compensation for their occupation or no means is absurd.
 

Kay

The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
2,077
As I noted initially, all talk, no plans. A revolution built on "this sucks, let's burn it down and trust us to figure out how to rebuild later" simply isn't going to happen. In a world where people willingly DIE to "own the libs" on health insurance, far too much credit is given to the as-yet unsupported assumption that just because people are fed up and "lay down in the gears of the machine" they will follow YOUR unproven and undefined goals.

Especially if violent revolution is involved. People will rightly fight you to be self-deterministic. Do you really think people who have shit jobs for shit wages are going to just do the jobs the post-capitalist society would demand they fill? That's never going to happen.

1) Most jobs in a capitalist society are created just for the sake of exisiting or else the entire system would collapse
2) People do things for no material benefit all the time. Nobody pays you to clean your house or maintain your backyard but most people do it anyway. The longest known piece of literature is a Smash brothers fanfic for gods sake. Socialism would (hopefully) remove the alienation that capitalist workers feel at work
 
Oct 27, 2017
7,696
I am very curious to know what those advocating for full on socialism are actually advocating for in terms of policy and administrative structures. Also, what their understanding of what socialism actually is in terms of a technical definition.
 

FaceHugger

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
13,949
USA
I am all for the seemingly-communist styled society we see in Star Trek: The Next Generation.

Anyway, while I am not sure I'd want a socialist society in the philosophical and political theory, I do want a lot more socialism in the current US government. We don't have adequate safety nets in this country. We have prison guards trying to manage the mentally ill, rather than providing treatment. The middle class bears a heavy tax burden and barely benefits from it. Schools in poor areas are left to fend for themselves, creating a vicious cycle within the communities they serve. Unless a woman works for a fabulous company she doesn't even get proper parental leave - and even then it's rarely enough. I could go on, but we all know how much this country sucks sometimes.

Diverting a hefty portion of military spending, and forcing billionaires and their massive corporations to pay taxes, we could fix those things. Unfortunately people still vote GOP.
 

FliX

Master of the Reality Stone
Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
9,879
Metro Detroit
It's the argument our lovely politicians make (those of red or blue) - of how wonderful our political system is with proportional representation and FPTP.

I'm just highlighting that it's only proportional representation of constituencies and not the popular vote.
Hence they should be using MMP. Best of both worlds.
 

Deleted member 25600

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 29, 2017
5,701
It's what some communist friends have suggested in conversations about how a post-revolution world would work. Of course, their answers aren't much more satisfying than the avoidance of answering the question found in this thread.
It depends on the society you're talking about. Under a Socialist society one is paid according to the value of one's work. So in this scenario a shit shovelling job that is necessary for society to function would be highly valued and paid extremely well. Rather than be a low paying job because its reserved for unskilled labour as it would be now under Capitalism, it would be a high paying job because the task performed is highly valued by society.

Under Communism I'm not certain, as my understanding of Communism is still not great. In theory technology would have progressed to a stage where most non-creative work is unnecessary and the working week is only a few hours long. In theory most jobs that exist now would be automated. The ones that are necessary would still be performed out of a sense of social duty rather than coercion.
 
Oct 27, 2017
1,970
Exactly. "From each according to their ability" according to *who*?
Chomsky's view is that we could have a mandatory pro rata system for the stuff nobody wants to do: you get to shovel shit for x hours and do other stuff for y hours, but the x would be required of everyone.

I'm not that convinced but I haven't really heard any better idea tbh and of course it would be rather difficult to enforce, especially if you have "bone spurs" or something.
 

electricblue

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,991
It depends on the society you're talking about. Under a Socialist society one is paid according to the value of one's work. So in this scenario a shit shovelling job that is necessary for society to function would be highly valued and paid extremely well. Rather than be a low paying job because its reserved for unskilled labour as it would be now under Capitalism, it would be a high paying job because the task performed is highly valued by society.

Who determines the value, do they go through each and every job and assign an objective value to it or what? What would be the incentive to become skilled in a trade when you can (i'm assuming) freely choose a high paying unskilled job instead? I admit this idea *feels* more fair than what we do now in capitalism
 

FliX

Master of the Reality Stone
Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
9,879
Metro Detroit
Who determines the value, do they go through each and every job and assign an objective value to it or what? What would be the incentive to become skilled in a trade when you can (i'm assuming) freely choose a high paying unskilled job instead? I admit this idea *feels* more fair than what we do now in capitalism
I mean people go into academia now not because it is highly paid... If one wants to shovel shit for more then that is ones prerogative...
 

chaostrophy

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,378
Who determines the value, do they go through each and every job and assign an objective value to it or what?

Different worker-owned organizations could use different methods to determine wages just like they do today.

What would be the incentive to become skilled in a trade when you can (i'm assuming) freely choose a high paying unskilled job instead?

Physical comfort, for one. If you learn a skill that lets you work an office job instead of shoveling shit, even if you don't make more money, it means you don't have to smell shit all day.
 

Acorn

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,972
Scotland
Different worker-owned organizations could use different methods to determine wages just like they do today.



Physical comfort, for one. If you learn a skill that lets you work an office job instead of shoveling shit, even if you don't make more money, it means you don't have to smell shit all day.
Yep, I wouldn't work in a call centre ever again whatever you paid me. Infact I took a 4 grand paycut to leave 10 years ago.
 
OP
OP
sphagnum

sphagnum

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
16,058
I've worked in a call center, and to be honest, my biggest problem was always the management. Customers were annoying, of course, but the insane goals and requirements all stem from capital's needs.

I have no problem dealing with an angry person on the phone if you give me the time I need to deal with it. Restructure that place along the lines of democratic power and most of the problems would fall away.
 
Oct 27, 2017
1,227
A lot of these arguments in here have really aged like milk. I'm hoping both of these percentages have increased. We need socialism now more than ever.
 

B-Dubs

That's some catch, that catch-22
General Manager
Oct 25, 2017
32,788
don't bump super old and dead threads for no reason
 
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