"You aren't a game Dev so you don't get to have an opinion on what is or isn't bad game design"

[Vex]

EDIT: PLS READ THE OP. I MADE A MISTAKE ;_; MY POLL IS THEREFORE BADLY DESIGNED. I AM SO ASHAMED.

"You don't even make video games so how would you know this is bad game design?"

Neither do reviewers... Most don't make video games in their spare time either. Also... I'm pretty sure the guys at digital foundry don't make engines either but I definitely trust their judgement when they say a game is a technical marvel. This bleeds over into other hobbies as well such as cars and sports.

When you've done something for so long, even as a consumer (in this case playing games across many decades), you begin to have a heightened understanding of what is and isn't possible. Even if you don't know the technical jargon behind it, you still tend to pick up on a few things naturally.

So to say "you don't know what you're talking about because you aren't a developer" is just dismissive and isn't really an argument.

I'm allowed to call out spongey bosses as bad game design if the encounter is particularly overstaying its welcome and is also uninteresting otherwise. I'm allowed to call out rubberbanding ai as bad game design. I'm allowed to call out garbage scenarios where you are required to push a wooden raft over to an NPC so they can walk over it numerous times as boring, uninspired game design.

And you're free to criticize my pov, but pulling the whole "where's your gamedev ID card at?" Is just particularly awful as a comeback.

This happens so much on this forum!

 

[Deleted member 8861]

You can judge whether a car feels good to drive or not without being an automobile engineer.

 

[Soulflarz]

Your title is wrong but your post is right so your poll is badly designed.

 

[Deleted member 59109]

Everybody can have an opinion but I do think that a lot of "game design" talk usually just amounts to really subjective opinions.

 

[fourfourfun]

You don't have to be a game dev, but it doesn't automatically make every person who plays a game insightful.

 

[Vex]

Your title is wrong but your post is right so your poll is badly designed.

Click to shrink...

I just realized that maybe people might not realize what I'm saying. Dang I messed up maybe...

Not reading the OP is another common problem on this forum lol <.<

 

[TheCongressman]

People are going to not read the op and answer the title.

 

[TaySan]

You can criticize a game dev without being a dick. Just don't be a dick and be respectful and constructive.

 

[Procheno]

Hard to say it's true when a lot of game devs continuously get it wrong

 

[TooBusyLookinGud]

If you are an experienced gamer, I think calling out bad game design is alright - as long as you can back it up.

Being a dick about is not cool to the designers though. Even a game that you deem bad, takes a lot of effort to make. Constructive criticism should be welcomed by all.

 

[Okabe]

Uhhhhhhh achktually i am

 

[Crossing Eden]

You can criticize a game dev without being a dick. Just don't be a dick and be respectful and constructive.

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☝

So many people can only process something as either good or garbage.

 

[Vex]

People are going to not read the op and answer the title.

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I tried to put it in quotes like someone was saying it but I have no idea how to word it otherwise?

Mods feel free to change it, but I dunno what to?

Oh god this is embarrassing!!!!1 I have bad poll design!!!!!!

 

[Nooblet]

Correct, you can tell whether cow shit stinks or not without being a farm owner.

 

[Gundam]

Dang that's bad poll design

 

[Linus815]

lmao the poll is just impossible to decipher

 

[Spine Crawler]

You cannot have an opinion on food if you are no cook. You cannot have an opinion on movies unless you are a director. You cannot have an opinion on music if you are no musician etc, etc,

 

[vala]

Appeal to authority fallacy

 

[signal]

This happens so much on this forum!

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People critique game design all the time and I don't see it thrown out that much.

 

[Soulflarz]

Dang that's bad poll design

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lmao the poll is just impossible to decipher

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You aren't a poll Dev so you don't get to have an opinion on what is or isn't bad poll design

 

[Vex]

You cannot have an opinion on food if you are no cook. You cannot have an opinion on movies unless you are a director. You cannot have an opinion on music if you are no musician etc, etc,

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Yup. Imagine that, right? Imagine not being able to say that was a bad movie because the pacing was bad and then some dude busts into your room and says

"Where is your director's badge?!? Are you a producer? You don't even make movies!!!"

I'd be asking him how he got into my room in the first place!

 

[Jawmuncher]

50/50 on this

A player can definitely tell what works and what doesn't once in the drivers chair. However, said player also can think fixing things or changing things iis far easier than it is "Just change the value to X" isn't exactly how things work.

 

[Harken Raiser]

FPS are bad game design, there's never been a good one in the history of games. See what you've empowered me to do, OP!?

 

[VeggieBurger]

you guys aren't poll creators' so you don't get to have an opinion on what is or isn't bad poll design

 

[waffleman]

I feel like this argument is brought up more in situations where someone is dismissing more technical aspects or behind the scenes type shit in video games. Like "ah it would be so easy for them to do this, why didn't they do this" or something of the sort. Just situations where ppl are acting like arm chair game devs.

But yeah for the specific situations you mentioned it is a shoddy argument. Games aren't made for other game devs, they're made for the people. Because of that it isn't really valid to say you can't judge a game or a part of a game cause ya don't know how it's made. Of course you don't know how it's made, you just know how it feels whether it be good or bad. But like I said above, I feel like I don't really see these posts when ppl complain about game design.

 

[XaviConcept]

Oh you can definitely tell me what you like and not like, just don't act like you know how to fix it.

 

[VeggieBurger]

You aren't a poll Dev so you don't get to have an opinion on what is or isn't bad game design

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damn beat me to it lol

 

[Ukumio]

I mostly use the "you're not a game dev" line when I see people say stuff like "it shouldn't be hard to implement [feature]" or something. On the topic of what's good or bad game design, I don't personally know what is good or bad design but I do know what I like and what I don't so I normally use that as my basis when discussing game design features.

Is sprint in Halo good or bad game design? No idea, but I do like the ability to sprint and dislike returning to older Halo's without sprint as I feel slow and sluggish despite the fact that the maps are smaller and stuff. Just as an example. And now I fully expect to get hate from the anti-sprint people.

 

[Rizific]

I'm not a game dev, but I'll be playing that game. Well, I'll be playing it if it isn't a shitty game plagued by bad game design.

 

[Windu]

I have played games my entire life, so I'd say I'm an expert at playing games. I think I have the right to have an opinion on if a game feels good or not.

I have never made a game before though, so anything beyond if a game feels good to play or not is beyond my expertise. I know if there is a problem. A dev on the other hand knows how to fix it.

 

[Soulflarz]

damn beat me to it lol

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Bonus points because I made the original critique

 

[Filipus]

I tried to put it in quotes like someone was saying it but I have no idea how to word it otherwise?

Mods feel free to change it, but I dunno what to?

Oh god this is embarrassing!!!!1

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Honestly mods should just start banning people that outright don't read the OP and just post based on the title. It's becoming a problem and it shouldn't be the OP job to fix it.

So go ahead and make it even more controversial my goat friend.

 

[Gundam]

If I make an indie game does that qualify me for an opinion having license

 

[chipperrip]

Correct, you can tell whether cow shit stinks or not without being a farm owner.

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And since the outside nose isn't accustomed to the stench, can provide important insight. Maybe.

 

[correojon]

You don´t need to be a game dev to criticize a game, but you can't either expect your opinion to be given the same value as that of someone who has spent time studying in-depth or practicing the issue at hand. And this doesn't apply only to games. When people don't know enough about a topic they try to think that the subject is opinionable. No, you just have no knowledge about it and should step aside, listen and learn when those who do enter the discussion.

 

[Yuntu]

I think its fine to say what you dont like or what you think doesnt work.

But I also think a lot of people dont know how to properly voice that opinion without sounding like a dick. Myself included. That or they act like they know how to fix an issue with an game, thats the point where only really people that made the game can tell you whats easily possible or not (or people experienced in development) imo - even if the fix seems super simple on paper.

 

[Imperfected]

As a game designer: that actually is poor poll design. (Knowing how to create proper polls that don't attempt to bias the respondent toward specific answers is an important part of game design playtesting.)

The Golden Rule of Playtesting is that you note and consider all feedback--including non-verbal cues and biometrics if you have the capacity to collect them--but you also treat all feedback as being fundamentally questionable data. If a player tells you (or visibly displays) that they aren't enjoying something or find something frustrating, that's gold. If a player tells you they aren't enjoying something because [insert reason here], the reason they give is pyrite; they will often fail to identify the thing they actually have problems with or offer suggestions that are unrelated as "fixes".

So, yeah, absolutely everyone has valid opinions about games. Just try to bear in mind that the most useful opinion is often the least nuanced: "I didn't enjoy that boss fight" is actually more useful than "that boss's overhead attack is bullshit" or "that boss fight would be better without the adds".

 

[MCD]

Game devs are people too who make mistakes.

Look at Overwatch for example. They designed a hero to stop dive. Good idea in theory as supports needed a hero that isn't dead just because X character exists.

The problem however is that they made a hero that can do everything in one package better than any other hero. Huge damage, insane rapid stuns, insane heals, insane survivability etc. Not having her in your team means GG you lost. Same thing happened with another hero before her (Mercy and the moth meta).

Took them a whole year to nerf hero little by little to get the game back to playable state again.

This hero opened up so many holes in thier game from breaking the game to forming new metas etc.

When criticising the game we just need to be polite about it because at the end of the day, these devs are human beings. They make mistakes and they admit to it. But with all game designs, they also want to collect critical game data so sometimes they actually overpower or make things absolutely insane just for data collecting or testing out the playbase behavior.

E.G look at current Blizzard hero comp bans for instance. It's all about beta testing for OW2.

 

[•79•]

Expounding criticism doesn't make your opinions immune from criticism.

 

[BradGrenz]

Oh you can definitely tell me what you like and not like, just don't act like you know how to fix it.

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Honestly, I think there are lots of things where a player will say some element or section of a game was bad, or boring, or sucked, or whatever, but if they played the same game without those aspects it would be significantly worse. I think this happens a most often when something is really well made, and people feel the need to criticize something. For example, I think Spider-man without the Mary Jane sections would be a lesser experience on the whole.

 

[Pyro]

No, though I will say a lot of people have a hard time putting their feelings about games into proper words and I think a small part of that is a lack in understanding of design.

 

[Karlinel]

As a MD, with all the coronavirus situation, I've heard A LOT of people suggesting me how to better handle the epidemic, treat the sick, solve their laboral issues and so on. Which does get very, very irritating. But everyone has a right to their opinion, even if you would hope most won't spout it like feces.

 

[RestEerie]

so i can't have an opinion on the food that's served to me because i can't cook and am not a chef?

what logic is this?

on the flipping end though, i do hope most people not in the know will use more words to describe their feelings on the subject of their criticism other than 'worst/best thing ever in history!' *cough*this forum *cough*

 

[Vex]

Just try to bear in mind that the most useful opinion is often the least nuanced: "I didn't enjoy that boss fight" is actually more useful than "that boss's overhead attack is bullshit" or "that boss fight would be better without the adds".

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Can you elaborate on this part a bit more? Why would giving less information about what you didn't like be better than giving more? This is interesting to me.

 

[Cess007]

You can criticize a game dev without being a dick. Just don't be a dick and be respectful and constructive.

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Oh you can definitely tell me what you like and not like, just don't act like you know how to fix it.

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Pretty much this. It's not that hard actually.

 

[Vex]

so i can't have an opinion on the food that's served to me because i can't cook and am not a chef?

what logic is this?

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*Squints really hard*

 

[EliR]

I think the main problem comes from developers mostly having extremely justified reasons for why some game design is implemented in the ways they are. When a design mechanic is "done" it's gone through several pipelines along several developers and met several deadlines. Whether it's gamedesign, development, picking up the trash, being a plumber, whatever; time is money. One of those isn't infinite in (most) jobs.

So I think when one criticises a design choice, it can feel to a developer that it attacks the design process, their livelihood, a piece of tech they work with friends and colleagues on.

 

[Rosenkrantz]

50/50. The player can definitely spot something that doesn't work, but going into the hyperbole mode and saying how easy it would be to avoid it is not the best approach.

 

[•79•]

so i can't have an opinion on the food that's served to me because i can't cook and am not a chef?

what logic is this?

on the flipping end though, i do hope most people not in the know will use more words to describe their feelings on the subject of their criticism other than 'worst/best thing ever in history!' *cough*this forum *cough*

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No but the chef can call bullshit on your criticism.

An example. That medium rare steak someone ordered and returned because it was overcooked was replaced by a rare steak they enjoyed. The chef was perfectly fine in regarding the customer an idiot.

 

[spineduke]

there are plenty of game devs who screw over their games with badly thought out design, so i wouldn't automatically put them on a pedestal.

edt: you really screwed over your poll btw. badly designed!