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"Yet Another Generic White Dude" - A legitimate discussion on criticism regarding character design diversity
- Thread starter Veelk
- Start date
To clarify if I am being misunderstood- An argument for breaking the mold of conceiving white, straight men in gaming space as "Normal" is not the same as labeling white men as "generic".
Trust me, I would love to believe that but a ton of drive by posts calling out "generic white guy" and not much else leaves very little room for discussion. Also, if I have no qualms about people criticizing specific aspects of a character's design that has been seen, as you aptly, put "a hundred times".
Weirdly enough, in the most roundabout way of thinking, this time around, the character speaks to him not standing out and to that end the design works for in-game context.
I feel like there's being dissapointed it's just another white guy and wanting more diversity... and then there's prematurely drive-by shitting on the game over it like the other thread was filled with.
I mean this protagonist looks designed by committee but come on... It's not like the games trash because of it.just dissapointing.
I mean this protagonist looks designed by committee but come on... It's not like the games trash because of it.just dissapointing.
EA is very vocal and active about diversty in gaming, I don't think that it's fair for Era to be this reactionary once they see a dude that doesn't line up with what they wanted, maybe it's the "Arthur Morgan" effect.
I think the fact that it's a real actor sort makes it less annoying, well maybe annoying isn't the right word but knowing that it's the guy from Gotham is definitely a factor in the back of my mind. However, when you forget about that for a second or two, the character definitely starts looking like something out of 2008. Maybe it's the hair, I can't put my finger on it yet.
Just going to quote what I said in the reveal thread here.
Imagine being forced to eat a stack of pancakes every day. Sure, every stack is different, some stacks are even tasty as all fuck, but it's pancakes all the same. At some point, you ain't even going to care what the taste is like, you're just tired of pancakes.
Imagine being forced to eat a stack of pancakes every day. Sure, every stack is different, some stacks are even tasty as all fuck, but it's pancakes all the same. At some point, you ain't even going to care what the taste is like, you're just tired of pancakes.
Then our opinions diverge here. Despite the dearth in representation of PoCs and women in gaming space (that is both changing and needs to be featured more), I can not in good faith label a group as "generic" based on just the colour of their skin.
Generic is a strong word but then again he also looks like the default option of a "create a character."
And yeah, when you look at the actual leads of the major entries in Star Wars (i'm not talking about random ass EU books) and you see that lack a variety then yeah, it's completely fair to take them to task for the lack of diversity.
And yeah, when you look at the actual leads of the major entries in Star Wars (i'm not talking about random ass EU books) and you see that lack a variety then yeah, it's completely fair to take them to task for the lack of diversity.
Pretty sure EA laid out some ground rules so they can market and sell the game better, and who is their main audience? White nerds yes.
Trailer looked kinda boring but the game could turn out alright, lets hope.
Yeah - i hate this argument....people always bring up some side/minor characters as a counter example, even though the main lead, legendary, once in a generation, force user wunderkind is usually the white male.
Nothing against it on a basic level, but when people call it out you should recognize and not bring up side characters. to win this argument.
For me it's not about him not being a PoC or a woman. He's generic even by white male standards in and of themselves. His visage gives us nothing, story-wise. I understand they want to go as generic as they can to broaden the appeal, but by not giving the character a standout look, they open themselves to the critique of not offering a character creator.
Its definately true that whether a character is generic or not has to do with more than race.
Spartan Locke was probably the most generic space marine character of the generation.
Can't I just have an opinion about opinions? Repeat ad infinitum.
It should be alright to call out the possible uselessness of questioning "whether a character is generic" in a 20 hour game when you're basing that thought on a 2 minute trailer with almost literally no characterization beyond the most superficial.
In terms of big games without white male protagonists? Plenty come to mind. There's no rhyme or reason to what I'm about to list--just western-developed well-known games that come to mind which I have played in recent years. Not meant to be comprehensive and doesn't even delve into non-western-developed games and stuff that is traditionally considered "indie." Not saying that there is "enough" or anything, but it does seem to me at least that things are gradually improving in terms of diverse protagonists as of around 2010 or so.
Mirror's Edge series, Sleeping Dogs, Just Cause series, Tomb Raider reboot series, Far Cry 4 (although first person), Prey (although first person), The Last of Us, Infamous: Second Son, Infamous: First Light, Uncharted: The Lost Legacy, Dishonored 2: Death of the Outsider, Horizon: Zero Dawn, Watch Dogs 2, Telltale's The Walking Dead series, Life is Strange (and the sequel), Overwatch, Apex Legends, Assassin's Creed III, Asassin's Creed: Freedom Cry, Assassin's Creed: Liberation, Assassin's Creed: Origins, Assassin's Creed: Odyssey (well, half), Mafia III...
EA has actually been pretty good with diversity in their lead characters and marketing material for resent games (battlefront 2 had a female non white lead, Battlefield 1 had a black dude on the cover BFV got so much shit for putting women front and center) so I dont see the problem unless you just want every game to have non white male leads in which case you have your own issues and they would probably never make you happy anyway and your probably pushing people away from the cause
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The Sims 4 especially where they did a huge update to allow players to make trans and non-gender conforming Sims, put a gay marriage on their trailer for the pets expansion which is their biggest expansion, have been releasing different culture items as free content, and been getting better at releasing moe Afro hair due to feedback. And there's BioWare who have been putting LGBT, women and PoC more and more as main characters. EA I think also support a lot of minority inniatives if I remember there Twitter correctly.
You seriously can't tell a difference between them? That's just you being daft, honestly.
Yes. This is what I mean. Back in the mid to late 90s and early 2000s, generic dude meant a combination of attributes like being bald, marine, gruff voice, cliched one liners or cringey dialogues, draped in heavy armor and white.
As a PoC I was never bothered by this. For me, I never felt bothered by characters protagonists skin color or their gender. If they're written good, why should I dismiss them just because they're not the same shade as me? He isn't a bald marine, something I'm thankful for.
It's like with Super heroes, I love their character, not their skin color, I love Spider-Man. He's white but his issues and problems are far more relatable to me than Miles Morales. Then again Miles was written by an incompetent dude. We know nothing of this dude, but I just can't feel upset over this. If he were a woman, Asian, Hispanic, African American, an alien or whatever, I'd have no issue.
I know some people don't think like this but that's just my feelings on this.
It's like with Super heroes, I love their character, not their skin color, I love Spider-Man. He's white but his issues and problems are far more relatable to me than Miles Morales. Then again Miles was written by an incompetent dude. We know nothing of this dude, but I just can't feel upset over this. If he were a woman, Asian, Hispanic, African American, an alien or whatever, I'd have no issue.
I know some people don't think like this but that's just my feelings on this.
I was told in the fallen order thread by one and others also implied it.
It is impossible to be racist to a white person
It is impossible to be sexist to a man.
I disagree to this but it seams many hereagree with those statements.
The second statement particularly bothers me. I've singlehanded witness sexism towards men in court when 2 parents are fighting over who gets the kids. I've seen great dads loose their child to a terrible mother because of sexism.obviously women tend to be better parents, but it's not always the case.
I've seen cops automatically assume the man was the problem in domestic disputes.
I had a girlfriend who lost it on me because I wanted to break up. She literally attacked me. I refused to hit her and only attempted to block her attacks and grab her to keep her from hitting me. the cops came and saw bruises on me and cuts all over me(women's nails are no joke) and she was perfectly fine. The cops treated me like a crap and actually where going to arrest me until she said it was her fault. After that I couldn't force them to arrest her. They saw no need.
When me and my wife where fighting I talked to a lawyer about divorce. I wanted to see if I could get 50% custody. He said it was highly unlikely and the courts automatically lean towards giving the mom more time.
But again I'm told that it's impossible to be sexist towards a man.
It is impossible to be racist to a white person
It is impossible to be sexist to a man.
I disagree to this but it seams many hereagree with those statements.
The second statement particularly bothers me. I've singlehanded witness sexism towards men in court when 2 parents are fighting over who gets the kids. I've seen great dads loose their child to a terrible mother because of sexism.obviously women tend to be better parents, but it's not always the case.
I've seen cops automatically assume the man was the problem in domestic disputes.
I had a girlfriend who lost it on me because I wanted to break up. She literally attacked me. I refused to hit her and only attempted to block her attacks and grab her to keep her from hitting me. the cops came and saw bruises on me and cuts all over me(women's nails are no joke) and she was perfectly fine. The cops treated me like a crap and actually where going to arrest me until she said it was her fault. After that I couldn't force them to arrest her. They saw no need.
When me and my wife where fighting I talked to a lawyer about divorce. I wanted to see if I could get 50% custody. He said it was highly unlikely and the courts automatically lean towards giving the mom more time.
But again I'm told that it's impossible to be sexist towards a man.
It feels like you're missing the context here. No one's labelling all white people as generic. People are saying that within the context of western popular media, the use of white characters as the leads has become so overused that it's generic.
Yep as I said earlier in this thread. Americans view diversity using broad racial categories like "white" and "black". Americans won't view Niko as diverse compared to Europeans, generally speaking
You can add "Generic white woman" to that as well.
Alarming how when people cry for more diversity, developers give us a white woman instead of a white male. They are overall both over represented compared to others.
Keeps my wallet healthier.
Alarming how when people cry for more diversity, developers give us a white woman instead of a white male. They are overall both over represented compared to others.
Keeps my wallet healthier.
Literally when I saw the main protagonist and I saw once again a white guy, I was like really? We had enough of those dudes.
Have to echo what others have said, he just looks so... bland.
I don't think the vast majority of people would. It's more a question of whether a person grew up in the 'Old World' or the 'New World'. In my experience Old World people focus on what country/region you originate from while New World people focus on skin colour.
I don't think the vast majority of people would. It's more a question of whether a person grew up in the 'Old World' or the 'New World'. In my experience Old World people focus on what country/region you originate from while New World people focus on skin colour.
He's basic and boring. That's what I got from the trailer. Wasn't feeling the character at all. Give him at least a cool haircut, or a tattoo. He's just dull, ugh
I can't care about what color or sex a Star Wars character is unless the series starts regressing to mostly white dudes or something, but man I'm having some sensible chuckles at how hard OP is trying to sound smart/academic while not quite pulling it off.
Wait, why are you saying you think it's not reasonable to argue that a black man can more viscerally relate to the theme of feeling distrustful of an authoritative society than the average white dude?
As opposed to all the white guy oppressed minorities? oomph.
Wait, why are you saying you think it's not reasonable to argue that a black man can more viscerally relate to the theme of feeling distrustful of an authoritative society than the average white dude?
As opposed to all the white guy oppressed minorities? oomph.
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Yeah, thats my main take away as well.
"Generic white male" is actually rarely something that comes up for me during a unveiling trailer even if the MC is a white male....but in this it was just played too safe for me, considering what universe and possibilities we are talking about. I dont feel the same way when seeing Kratos, Nathan Drake, Geralt and co.
Going for the safest and least offensive options just isnt that exciting to me at this point. There are plenty of white male characters in video games that look more interesting. Nothing against the actor the character is based on....but it is what it is.
I disagree about the protagonist looking "generic". In western games the protagonists are hovering middle-age with facial hair and a gravelly voice oozing testosterone. The baby face of Cal instantly stood out to me.
I think of race and gender as lowkey independant of character intrigue or depth. Who a character is matters so of course an author should take that contemporary aspect to their literature seriously. In this case, I think the protagonist is boring. Him being white only has anything to do with insofar as how basic and traditional that is for a hollywood blockbuster sort of deal, but besides that I think it's just the image of the character that seems boring.
It's a male hero with a lightsaber, who's probably going to save the world or be the hero somehow. We've just been here before too many times. That is the long and short of it for me.
It's a male hero with a lightsaber, who's probably going to save the world or be the hero somehow. We've just been here before too many times. That is the long and short of it for me.
Historically, Star Wars main characters were always humans so I wasn't expecting anything different here (I'm sure in the comics/books universe there are probably some non-human main characters but I can't remember any games). But I agree with that for "space games" in general like Mass Effect. Let me play as some weird alien with unique abilities!
To be fair, "don't stand out" is quite literally one of the core rules of his existence. He's trying to stay incognito, so having a huge blue mohawk or a face covered in tattoos or whatever would kind of work against his stated mission of flying under the radar so he doesn't die.
I'd prefer a character creation system, and more games need to move more in that direction because it's the best way to please everyone. There are ways they can implement a system while still using the mocap stuff.
But I also feel that, if you look at all of the new characters created in Star Wars since the Disney buyout... it has been more diverse than ever, with more groups represented well than ever before. There is still room for the occasional white male hero character too, because everyone deserves representation... and representation should not just be limited to legacy characters and content, especially when lots of them are dying off now (in universe, as well as out of universe.)
Look at characters like Poe, Finn, Rose, Rey, Kazuda, Tam, Qi'ra, Jarek , Aphra, Jyn, Cassian, Phasma, Chirrut, Baze, Saw, Holdo, Sabine... I'm sure that's not even half of major ones. Then look at Battlefront II, who's major story lead is a female POC, Iden Versio. Then look at the white male characters like Kylo, Hux, Snoke (alien? played by and looks like a white dude though)... often cast as villains, and isn't there something to be said about that as well? Star Wars is in a very good place for representing women and POC.
I prefer to look at it from a Star Wars POV... if you look at it only from a game POV, then I understand since the game space is more white male dominated. It wasn't really the best place to introduce a new major white male character for people frustrated at this.
But I also feel that, if you look at all of the new characters created in Star Wars since the Disney buyout... it has been more diverse than ever, with more groups represented well than ever before. There is still room for the occasional white male hero character too, because everyone deserves representation... and representation should not just be limited to legacy characters and content, especially when lots of them are dying off now (in universe, as well as out of universe.)
Look at characters like Poe, Finn, Rose, Rey, Kazuda, Tam, Qi'ra, Jarek , Aphra, Jyn, Cassian, Phasma, Chirrut, Baze, Saw, Holdo, Sabine... I'm sure that's not even half of major ones. Then look at Battlefront II, who's major story lead is a female POC, Iden Versio. Then look at the white male characters like Kylo, Hux, Snoke (alien? played by and looks like a white dude though)... often cast as villains, and isn't there something to be said about that as well? Star Wars is in a very good place for representing women and POC.
I prefer to look at it from a Star Wars POV... if you look at it only from a game POV, then I understand since the game space is more white male dominated. It wasn't really the best place to introduce a new major white male character for people frustrated at this.
I can understand your perspective. I don't think most people are trying to say the character has less value because he is wight, but more voicing a disappointment that the next big story driven star wars game is a return to that classic archetype. The character might be great, and the game could tell an incredible story, but it also means that others will have to wait longer for a chance to play a different type of character.
Star Wars as a general media franchise is working to increase its representation, and that is a great thing. One big problem though, is that there are not many story games being made. If this game is a hit, we will probably be playing as this protagonist through at least another sequel. EA is not in the business of making a lot of singleplayer narrative heavy games, so the odds of getting something different drops dramatically. What will most likely happen is that players that want more diversity will have to settle for villains and secondary characters. I think that reality is one of the roots of people's frustration.
Interesting/important has nothing to do with it. I think the OP is, ironically, over complicating the issue. It's just about representation. You can tell most stories with a character of any ethnicity, especially if the ethnicity is of no consequence to the story. If we've had a bajillion Star Wars stories featuring white people in the lead - and we essentially have - it's just sort of an opportunity to not default to that.
Because default is sorta the issue. White guys are still default, the choice games either decide or decide against moving away from. It's pretty fucked up that we regard any ethnicity/gender as the stock one, and that everything else is in addition or a variation. Until we've broken that false notion, I think the white dude is going to be met with some yawns, and I honestly don't think that's unfair.
Because default is sorta the issue. White guys are still default, the choice games either decide or decide against moving away from. It's pretty fucked up that we regard any ethnicity/gender as the stock one, and that everything else is in addition or a variation. Until we've broken that false notion, I think the white dude is going to be met with some yawns, and I honestly don't think that's unfair.
"but what about all these side characters?" is never a good argument when people are critiquing representation of leads characters in a franchise's major releases.