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Cyclonesweep

Banned
Oct 29, 2017
7,690
You're just gonna ignore the like 6 different variables that change how much "until you need to" is I guess then.

2 inches is 2 inches with gyro/mouse.
2 inches could be 1 second, 1.2 seconds, .2 seconds, it could be literally fucking anything just depending on how the game changes it. Where the acceleration curves start and stop. It's inherently less predictable.

Like, maybe you like just taking your sweet ass time to sit there and visually just watch your cursor, drag its sweet way over to the thing, so you can visually tell your thumb to stop, but like, I just want to move 2 inches and be done with it. With gyro and mouse I can fire without seeing that I've lined it up right cuz I know it was two inches off when I did see it. And it's the same way in every damn game.


Like, does it not point out a deficiency with analog stick aiming, that like, it's the only control method where the game has to do 50% of the pointing for you? Like, that doesn't raise any alarms that the game directly has to take control, *specifically because you do not have enough control*?


Hi yes just look at my above post as to why.
Except 2 inches isn't 2 inches. What you see on screen and in real life isn't a one to one ratio. Especially with people here arguing about gyro sensitivity. You would need to know exactly how far say an inch of mouse or gyro movement is in relation to the screen.
 

Deimos

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,765
You don't believe me bc it would go against your perspective? I can also easily move my body around and still aim fine with sticks.

You blindly support. Instead of listening to people who say they have issues you choose to consider them liars so that your support can go untarnished. I don't think your approach has the outcome you want.
Can't argue with the guy with superhuman stabilized thumbs.
 

Cyclonesweep

Banned
Oct 29, 2017
7,690
Can't argue with the guy with superhuman stabilized thumbs.
You have to be trolling at this point. Here is another example. Hold a controller straight out, love the controller left and right, now try and aim with a analog sticks. Now do the same with the gyro. One will be more messed up than the other. It's a more extreme example but it will prove the point
 

Equanimity

Member
Oct 27, 2017
14,991
London
Mouse and gyro are simply: Move to the left

Thumbstick is: Move to the left....AND hold until you reach the enemy.

To oversimplify it, thumbstick has an extra step.
Does your comment on analogue take sensitivity and frame-rate into account?
You're just gonna ignore the like 6 different variables that change how much "until you need to" is I guess then.
I didn't intend to ignore it, it really is as simple as I've suggested, but not for you of course.
2 inches is 2 inches with gyro/mouse.
2 inches could be 1 second, 1.2 seconds, .2 seconds, it could be literally fucking anything just depending on how the game changes it. Where the acceleration curves start and stop. It's inherently less predictable.
2 inches is 2 inches in your ideal scenario or always? Would it not depend on what you're playing, its performance and sensitivity level?
Like, maybe you like just taking your sweet ass time to sit there and visually just watch your cursor, drag its sweet way over to the thing, so you can visually tell your thumb to stop, but like, I just want to move 2 inches and be done with it. With gyro and mouse I can fire without seeing that I've lined it up right cuz I know it was two inches off when I did see it. And it's the same way in every damn game.
I'm sure one can train to be just as proficient with an analogue stick as you claim to be with mouse and gyro. I can't hit my target without visual feedback, regardless of platform or control scheme.
Like, does it not point out a deficiency with analog stick aiming, that like, it's the only control method where the game has to do 50% of the pointing for you? Like, that doesn't raise any alarms that the game directly has to take control, *specifically because you do not have enough control*?
In most cases you can turn off aim assist but yeah it does point to a potential struggle with nailing FPS/TPS camera movement.
It's hard to easily describe what is quite an abstract difference in an easy to understand way, but the analogy I'd give is that with an stick it feels like you're steering the reticule towards a moving target (in a way that can much more easily lead to over or under corrections), whereas a gyro or mouse it feels closer to placing the reticule on the target.

Obviously people can subjectively prefer analogue sticks for aiming, but nobody can claim they are more accurate than either gyro or m&kb for reticule aiming and have that claim exist in any kind of factual basis. Especially when they will likely never have experienced dual analogue sticks without significant aim assist.
This is why I find calling one control scheme objectively superior somewhat troublesome. I struggle to aim with gyro but M&KB and analogue sticks are like second nature.
 
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Equanimity

Member
Oct 27, 2017
14,991
London
Those living targets will move too. Gyro helps reel in the analog aiming quickly when they get out of the crosshair a little. Especially when you are using a sniper where even a subtle quick push on the analog can screw up your aiming easily.

When I tried gyro in BotW and Splatoon, my experiences was the exact opposite. The use of gyro made aiming imprecise.
 

MeBecomingI

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,037
I actually really enjoyed motion pointer controls. I didn't like them at first, but I came around to them. I remember playing through Bioshock Infinite with the PS Move controllers and had such a fun time with the game that I consider that the only way to play. I've tried replaying it over and over with a mouse and keyboard and analogue and it just doesn't feel the same. Gyro is absolutely not a substitute, but it's a fine way to make small adjustments and I wish more PS4 / PS5 games used it.
 
Oct 25, 2017
3,722
Does your comment on analogue take sensitivity and frame-rate into account?
What does framerate have to do with anything? If I move my mouse or gyro X distance then that's what I get. Fps doesn't matter because it's not calculating based off time.
I didn't intend to ignore it, it really is as simple as I've suggested, but not for you of course.

2 inches is 2 inches in your ideal scenario or always? Would it not depend on what you're playing, its performance and sensitivity level?
I match my sensitivity from game to game with gyro, so it always performs the same for me. And for gyro, somewhere around a 1:1 sensitivity is ideal, though sometimes 1:1.5 on the Y axis can help as usually it's the Y axis that needs to be reentered more.

And no. Unlike sticks I do not need to make trade offs between accuracy and speed. So it does not change from game to game.

I'm sure one can train to be just as proficient with an analogue stick as you claim to be with mouse and gyro. I can't hit my target without visual feedback, regardless of platform or control scheme.
No matter how much you train, there are hard limits to the amount of precision that a stick has, that cannot be overcome by practice. You cannot simultaneously have very precise aim, as well as very quick spins, at the same time on a controller because your sensitivity must be either/or. And if a game has a huge acceleration swing from small adjustments to full turning, then you lose out on a lot of middle movement precision (moving "a decent amount but not doing a 180" type of stuff)
This is a technical limitation that practice cannot overcome. Aim assist is used MASSIVELY to pick up the slack on the precision.

Being able to hit a target without the visual feedback of seeing that you are aiming at then is called a flick shot. It's a not so advanced technique. It's incredibly difficult to get good at actually doing them with a stick, so most games snap you into targets when you ads to make it feel like you can; but it's a pretty natural thing to be able to do okay when using mkb or gyro.
In most cases you can turn off aim assist but yeah it does point to a potential struggle with nailing FPS/TPS camera movement.
False.
In *many* games you can disable *SOME* forms of aim assist, never all.
There's usually 10 or so different types of aim assist, some more obnoxious than others, and "turning off aim assist" usually only turns off reticle magnetism.
It 99% of the time won't turn off magnetic bullets, nor "sticky" aim (which is where it adjusts the sensitivity based on proximity to a valid target to massively increase the window in which you can stop moving your aim and land on a target, by cutting sensitivity when approaching, over top of, or passing through a hitbox)
It's why so many people complain about how stick-only feels in Splatoon, because it genuinely is zero aim assist.

This is why I find calling one control scheme objectively superior somewhat troublesome. I struggle to aim with gyro but M&KB and analogue sticks are like second nature.
Being used to a less precise method of aim doesn't change it's objective qualities... just your subjective opinion on the value of them.
 

Arthands

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
8,039
When I tried gyro in BotW and Splatoon, my experiences was the exact opposite. The use of gyro made aiming imprecise.

Have got to say it is likely you are too accustom to just pure standard controller scheme, because gyro is something that's intuitive.

Just like catching a ball in midair or playing table football.
 

Arulan

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,571
I don't get the disconnect with people not understanding that you need to be aware of how you move your controller while using gyro aiming that is based on moving your controller.

When I sit with my daughter and play games she can give me a hug (or a shove, lol) and if I'm using sticks this does nothing to my gameplay. If I use gyro she most likely threw off my entire aim.

When I'm just sitting in the coach and I want to randomly adjust my seating that will move my aim with gyro. I can move around all day long without gyro and still be fine.

How does this not make sense? Some people are ok with the above, and some (like me) are not.
When using the Steam controller (or Steam Input) you can set it up to only activate gyro when you're touching the trackpad (or any other activator you wish). This is a pretty common practice in configurations that use gyro.
 
Oct 25, 2017
3,722
Except 2 inches isn't 2 inches. What you see on screen and in real life isn't a one to one ratio. Especially with people here arguing about gyro sensitivity. You would need to know exactly how far say an inch of mouse or gyro movement is in relation to the screen.
People who play mkb typically measure everything by inches, because a mouse pad is flat, and it's easiest to talk about.

But people talking specifially about gyro are starting to use degrees, which is 1:1, as you don't slide your controller over, you rotate it, and your in game character rotates too. This is 1:1 mapping, I rotate controller 30 degrees, character rotates 30 degrees (or 45 or whatever).
Whatever sensitivity you use, you very quickly map it and don't need to wait to see where the cursor is to know where you have pointed yourself.
 

Equanimity

Member
Oct 27, 2017
14,991
London
What does framerate have to do with anything? If I move my mouse or gyro X distance then that's what I get. Fps doesn't matter because it's not calculating based off time.
If you play the same game at two locked frame-rates, one at 30fps and the other at 60, do you adjust your calculations or is it exactly the same across both performance profiles?
I match my sensitivity from game to game with gyro, so it always performs the same for me. And for gyro, somewhere around a 1:1 sensitivity is ideal, though sometimes 1:1.5 on the Y axis can help as usually it's the Y axis that needs to be reentered more.
Okay.
And no. Unlike sticks I do not need to make trade offs between accuracy and speed. So it does not change from game to game.
Your preference is accomodating, I get it.
No matter how much you train, there are hard limits to the amount of precision that a stick has, that cannot be overcome by practice.
Here's the thing though, analogue sticks are more precise than gyro in everything I've tried. Do take into account that we process the act of playing through contrasting control schemes, differently.
You cannot simultaneously have very precise aim, as well as very quick spins, at the same time on a controller because your sensitivity must be either/or. And if a game has a huge acceleration swing from small adjustments to full turning, then you lose out on a lot of middle movement precision (moving "a decent amount but not doing a 180" type of stuff)
At this point, you're better of with a M&KB.
This is a technical limitation that practice cannot overcome. Aim assist is used MASSIVELY to pick up the slack on the precision.
Are you absolutely certain one can't learn to fire without seeing if they've lined it up right on a controller?
Being able to hit a target without the visual feedback of seeing that you are aiming at then is called a flick shot. It's a not so advanced technique. It's incredibly difficult to get good at actually doing them with a stick, so most games snap you into targets when you ads to make it feel like you can; but it's a pretty natural thing to be able to do okay when using mkb or gyro.
Yeah, I've seen a video or two on this flick shot technique. I think Linus posted one about the dualshock.

False.
In *many* games you can disable *SOME* forms of aim assist, never all.

There's usually 10 or so different types of aim assist, some more obnoxious than others, and "turning off aim assist" usually only turns off reticle magnetism.
It 99% of the time won't turn off magnetic bullets, nor "sticky" aim (which is where it adjusts the sensitivity based on proximity to a valid target to massively increase the window in which you can stop moving your aim and land on a target, by cutting sensitivity when approaching, over top of, or passing through a hitbox)
Well if what you say is true, devs should include an option to turn off the entire thing, or allow some form of customisation.
Being used to a less precise method of aim doesn't change it's objective qualities... just your subjective opinion on the value of them.
True. I get it, one is objectively more precise for some because of its qualities. But that doesn't mean it's objectively better for all players.
 

fiendcode

Member
Oct 26, 2017
24,909
When I tried gyro in BotW and Splatoon, my experiences was the exact opposite. The use of gyro made aiming imprecise.
There's definitely a learning curve, much like when we first moved to an analog stick (and then dual sticks). Or earlier with added shoulder buttons or even earlier with the dpad rather than a joystick. I had issues with all these initially too.

I didn't have any issue in BOTW but then also I've been playing Zeldas with gyro since 2011. It was wonky initially in OOT 3D though but after getting accustomed it's tough going back. Now it's infuriating when I have to aim a bow with just the clunky clumsy analog stick (like in Dragon's Dogma).
 

Cyclonesweep

Banned
Oct 29, 2017
7,690
People who play mkb typically measure everything by inches, because a mouse pad is flat, and it's easiest to talk about.

But people talking specifially about gyro are starting to use degrees, which is 1:1, as you don't slide your controller over, you rotate it, and your in game character rotates too. This is 1:1 mapping, I rotate controller 30 degrees, character rotates 30 degrees (or 45 or whatever).
Whatever sensitivity you use, you very quickly map it and don't need to wait to see where the cursor is to know where you have pointed yourself.
But the sensitivity would change that. That's actually quite a large movement to get the desired move. That's definitely a no go for a lot of people. Especially at an ergonomic level. Having to twist a controller that much for that movement, I could see the appeal but nooo thanks.

At the end of the day thinking about your gaming in inches and degrees seems like far more work than most people want to think about with gaming. I'm sure that gyro is better for dual sticks for accuracy, but with the learning curve and the extra motions required to use it, it's definitely not for everyone.

Edit: like just for shits and giggles I started moving my controller around like I would if I was gyro aiming and man almost instantly discomfort in the wrists.
 
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Arthands

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
8,039
There's definitely a learning curve, much like when we first moved to an analog stick (and then dual sticks). Or earlier with added shoulder buttons or even earlier with the dpad rather than a joystick. I had issues with all these initially too.

I didn't have any issue in BOTW but then also I've been playing Zeldas with gyro since 2011. It was wonky initially in OOT 3D though but after getting accustomed it's tough going back. Now it's infuriating when I have to aim a bow with just the clunky clumsy analog stick (like in Dragon's Dogma).

I agree with you. This is rather similar to moving from the original Playstation controller to the first DualShock controller.

To motion control with gyro, the developer will need to learn how to properly implement it so that it is an additive feature to aiming with analog.
 
Oct 28, 2017
1,951
It's superior to even m+kb, because I can sit on my comfy couch and still aim well. God, how much I hate playing on my Pc.

That's an exaggeration and grossly incorrect, It can never be superior to mouse at a fundamental level because the controller itself isn't at a fixed Z-Axis while using the gyro controls and will result in jitter/imprecise aiming without resorting to smoothing or lower sensitivity.

Part of making/developing Gyro aiming better is to start understanding its current shortcomings and not blatantly ignoring them.
 

Deleted member 5491

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
5,249
You're just gonna ignore the like 6 different variables that change how much "until you need to" is I guess then.

2 inches is 2 inches with gyro/mouse.
2 inches could be 1 second, 1.2 seconds, .2 seconds, it could be literally fucking anything just depending on how the game changes it. Where the acceleration curves start and stop. It's inherently less predictable.

Like, maybe you like just taking your sweet ass time to sit there and visually just watch your cursor, drag its sweet way over to the thing, so you can visually tell your thumb to stop, but like, I just want to move 2 inches and be done with it. With gyro and mouse I can fire without seeing that I've lined it up right cuz I know it was two inches off when I did see it. And it's the same way in every damn game.


Like, does it not point out a deficiency with analog stick aiming, that like, it's the only control method where the game has to do 50% of the pointing for you? Like, that doesn't raise any alarms that the game directly has to take control, *specifically because you do not have enough control*?
Funny how I turn my mouse sensitivity down when playing a Shooter so that I get more accurate with my aiming.
A mouse, a device that is larger and has to be moved more than a tiny stick with a dead zone.
 

Hasney

One Winged Slayer
The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
18,589
It's superior to even m+kb, because I can sit on my comfy couch and still aim well. God, how much I hate playing on my Pc.

I have a lapboard so I can play PC games from a comfy couch. Although I do like my comfy desk chair too. Depends on my mood.
 

Kwyjibo

Member
Oct 31, 2017
378
The lack of Gyro aiming in games in 2021 is absolutely pathetic.

It's so obviously superior than twin sticks in aiming situations and any general precision situations.
 

Kittenz

Member
Oct 28, 2017
3,156
Minneapolis
I hate it. Turned off immediately.

I play inverted and it's just broken in the way my brain processes movement.Absolutely awful. If it were only the X plane exclusively I could live Any Y axis component and it breaks the game for me. Absolutely first thing I do for Switch and DualSense is turn off any motion and invert controls (and now the DualSense sound on controller because no.).

I've been gaming for over 4 decades. My brain is not changing that pattern at this point.
 

Lakeside

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,212
I'm glad that people enjoy gyro gaming but I'd rather not game at all. I'd be done if gyro was the only way forward, backlog!
 

Necromanti

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,546
Well, it is clear that developers need to lead the initiative here. Once having the option of gyro aiming or gyro-assisted aiming is standard, people will eventually get used to it like they did with dual analogue sticks.
 

Twig

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,486
Remember when people hated mouse aiming.

Imagine if those closed-minded old fogeys had gotten their way. OOF.
 

Stowaway Silfer

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 27, 2017
32,819
Man, next time a pro-gyro aiming thread is made, address it to developers instead of users. And move the "obviously gyro isn't for everyone" to the top adding "if you dislike it, move along, you don't need to bother posting, no one's asking for it to replace your dual-stick aiming". That'll save us the drive-bys and useless, time-wasting replies to them.
(And don't be cheeky at all in the OP cause they can't tell)

If someone comes in like "I don't wanna move my arms" or whatever, there's no need to say "no it's small adjustments" or "you just move your wrist a little" or whatever else to make them understand.

It doesn't matter if "Internet Nerd #4459" understands how I use gyro aiming or why I like it. I will not enjoy games more if they do. What matters to me is being given the option to use gyro aiming built into my controller in Ratchet and Clank, Returnal, Horizon, God of War and whatever else Sony publishes that has some form of cursor aiming. What matters to people who also play multiplatform games on console is that those games have gyro aim. And that the implementation in those titles is good. When those games come out and don't have gyro or implement it incorrectly, make threads addressing their devs and publishers.

Cause then those of us who want to use it will have it on, those who want to learn or adapt will try it and maybe ask for tips and those who aren't interested will leave it off.

Let's reach the point where developers have standardized gyro aiming as option and are implementing it correctly first, before worrying about people unwilling to learn the control method. That'll save us the meaningless debates from two groups of people that ultimately should be able to enjoy the same games if the option for gyro becomes standard.
 

medyej

Member
Oct 26, 2017
6,419
Remember when people hated mouse aiming.

Imagine if those closed-minded old fogeys had gotten their way. OOF.

Basically what happened, but with an even worse fate where they invented aimbots to take the place of the mouse and then got so used to them that they never saw the need for it once it was available.
 

Pargon

Member
Oct 27, 2017
11,990
I think it's more like: if that person relaxes their thumb, the stick will not move on its own—they can move their thumb without touching the stick to avoid inadvertent inputs. However, if they shift their hand positions with control pad gyro, it can register as an input

does that make sense?
This is one of the reasons why I configure it to activate when I pull the left trigger, rather than being active at all times.

Is it more effort to disengage gyro or to take your thumbs off the sticks?
With the Steam Controller you can set the gyro to activate only when touching the right pad.
Capacitive analog sticks, like those used in VR controllers, could do the same thing.

Every time I've ever tried to aim using a gyroscope, I've hated it honestly. You sacrifice tactile sensation for more "precision" and even then I don't think it's a great trade and I never found gyro aiming to be that easy to be precise with.
This is solved with the Steam Controller's haptics, where you feel a 'tick' in the controller as it moves a set distance; e.g. every 1cm or so.
That really helps it feel like a mechanical input, rather than a free-floating controller.
It should be possible to do this with the DuslSense or Switch controllers too.

What do you mean? Do you carry on moving your mouse or controller after making contact?
Analog sticks are an abstracted, reaction-based input for aiming.
You hold the stick, wait for the view to turn and accelerate, then release when the crosshair eventually lands on your target - and hope you don't over-shoot.
Auto-aim often takes care of most of that for you though, by slowing down over targets, using bullet magnetism, and snapping when you hit the ADS button.

With a mouse or gyro, aiming is absolute (when properly implemented).
If I move the mouse/controller X distance, the view turns Y degrees every time.
If I see a target, I can hit it instinctively because enough practice builds up the muscle memory to know that I have to move a set distance to hit the target. I'm not holding a stick and waiting for the view to update.
A skilled player could hit the target blindfolded because it's not a reaction to watching the view turn based on the sensitivity and acceleration curve placed on the analog inputs, combined with how far the stick has been pushed.

That's definitely a no go for a lot of people. Especially at an ergonomic level. Having to twist a controller that much for that movement, I could see the appeal but nooo thanks.
I move the controller in an arc using my arms, I don't twist my wrists.

Translation:


Rather than rotation:


You can do large movements with motion controls with barely moving. I do it all the time since I used motion controls for big movements like a mouse and the sticks are for minor adjustments. You just have to tinker with the sensitivity.
Oh, I know. But the larger the input distance is, for the same turning radius in-game, the finer control you have over it.
That's one of the reasons mice are better than touchpads for gaming: you can have a much larger mousing area than the limited touchpad size.
You can configure a mouse so that 1cm of movement does a 360° turn - and many people new to using a mouse seem to start out like that; but you'll do much better if it takes 25cm.
All of that applies to gyro aiming too. I like gyro aiming because it can be used like a mouse. It's very intuitive to me as a PC gamer.
 

BlueManifest

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,313
I don't like waving my hands around to play and I'm too old to adapt. As someone already said, I also don't care if it is there as an option or not and that's that.

What a thread to start a new year.
What I don't like is that it's definitely more accurate, which means if it becomes and option in every game we will be at big disadvantage when playing online
 

Richter1887

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
39,146
I keep trying to get used to gyro and I just can't. A mouse or a controller is good enough for me, especially because I don't play MP games anyway.
 

maouvin

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,757
Blumenau - Brazil
At the end of the day thinking about your gaming in inches and degrees seems like far more work than most people want to think about with gaming.

Well, you don't need to "think", you mess with the settings until they get comfortable, then it becomes instinctive, just like setting your sens with a mouse or controller.

It's about not wanting to face a new learning curve for a genre you're already proficient, really.
But whenever gyro catches on, the option to turn it off will be there, so everything's fine.
 

beansontoast

One Winged Slayer
Member
Jan 5, 2020
949
What I don't like is that it's definitely more accurate, which means if it becomes and option in every game we will be at big disadvantage when playing online
If you think it's more accurate and you don't like the idea of being at a disadvantage then use it? If you're able to use it, but don't want to, then that surely implies that you consider analogue sticks to be better for you. So I'm not sure what there is to complain about?
 

ChemicalWorld

Member
Dec 6, 2017
1,739
If I'm using a controller for long periods of time count me in the camp that can do without motion controls. I need to give my arms a rest damnit! :P

Also if I'm playing a fps game 9 times out of 10 it'll be on PC anyways with far superior mouse and keyboard controls. *shrug*
 
Oct 25, 2017
3,722
Funny how I turn my mouse sensitivity down when playing a Shooter so that I get more accurate with my aiming.
A mouse, a device that is larger and has to be moved more than a tiny stick with a dead zone.

I mean, sure, I guess if you only ever want to move your mouse with your fingertips by a small amount, I guess you could do that.
But plenty of people, especially people who play games like CounterStrike professionally, use an extremely low sensitivity, and a large mousepad.
There's no limit to how fast you can move, you can do an instant 180 at extremely low DPI's, you're just going to be moving your arm a large distance. Which you can do because you aren't bound by a 1cm circle.

But the sensitivity would change that. That's actually quite a large movement to get the desired move. That's definitely a no go for a lot of people. Especially at an ergonomic level. Having to twist a controller that much for that movement, I could see the appeal but nooo thanks.

At the end of the day thinking about your gaming in inches and degrees seems like far more work than most people want to think about with gaming. I'm sure that gyro is better for dual sticks for accuracy, but with the learning curve and the extra motions required to use it, it's definitely not for everyone.

Edit: like just for shits and giggles I started moving my controller around like I would if I was gyro aiming and man almost instantly discomfort in the wrists.
Are you just trying to pivot the controller around a single point or something?


If you play the same game at two locked frame-rates, one at 30fps and the other at 60, do you adjust your calculations or is it exactly the same across both performance profiles?
I literally can't understand why you think FPS would change how my sensitivity behaves. Whether it's 30 or 144hz nothing about my gyro sensitivity changes. FPS has nothing to do with how far I move my controller, because it's not a time/velocity calculation. FPS also *shouldn't* affect thumbstick either, but that's not impossible I guess.
Okay.

Your preference is accomodating, I get it.

Here's the thing though, analogue sticks are more precise than gyro in everything I've tried. Do take into account that we process the act of playing through contrasting control schemes, differently.
*you personally are more comfortable with thumbsticks*. Which is okay. I don't care.
This is not the same as them being more precise.

At this point, you're better of with a M&KB.
M/KB actually has some ergonomic disadvantages that I personally never overcome, and Gyro actually has me performing better; but that's an entirely separate conversation, and entirely down to my personal preferences and how I game. But, despite my strong preference for Gyro over M/KB, I certainly would think it ridiculous if a game dev released a PC game that didn't have function M/KB controls, and would blast them for it.

Are you absolutely certain one can't learn to fire without seeing if they've lined it up right on a controller?

Yeah, I've seen a video or two on this flick shot technique. I think Linus posted one about the dualshock.
You're responding to something completely different here.

I'm saying that due to how a control stick works, it is impossible for it to have precision and speed through a large range of movements, both small and large.
You respond by saying someone could do a flick shot, which sure, after 80 playthroughs of RE4, I can make flick shots with the Rifle, but that's one single game that I can do that in and that flick shot skill doesn't translate to any other game, because every other game will respond to that input in a completely different way.

Additionally, a flick shot is an aiming technique. FlickSTICK is a controller configuration (and a really fucking sweet one at that, that I hope devs start paying attention to). Entirely different things.

Well if what you say is true, devs should include an option to turn off the entire thing, or allow some form of customisation.
Game devs typically don't want their game to control like QWOP so no, I think they should just allow for better control schemes for players that want it.

True. I get it, one is objectively more precise for some because of its qualities. But that doesn't mean it's objectively better for all players.
Objectively better =/= subjectively preferred.

Prefer the stick all you want, IDGAF, but just like color blind options we should all be pushing for gyro to be more adopted. I've got an Xbox that I'll probably never play any games on, and a PS4 that exists only for Bloodborne, because I can't stand to play shooters on either box... Even though I spend a lot of time playing shooters, on PC, with a Dualshock 4.
 
Oct 28, 2017
1,951


To be fair its pretty good, but just not very comfortable.

Following is my super cheese gameplay which I captured just now, I haven't spent a lot of time with Gyro/Flickstick and my DS4 v1 controller is insanely jittery with LS/RS/Gyro/Triggers (its as old as PS4 console generation).


Edit: People siding the Pro-Gyro/Flickstick discussion should provide their own gameplay videos, because I don't see any..
 
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Grue

Member
Sep 7, 2018
4,884
I can't believe the heat this topic generates (though thread titles using words like 'lying' certainly don't help).

It's an ADDITIONAL control option. Why would you want to remove it?

It's an additional control OPTION. Why would you want to mandate it?

Basically, I agree with this:

Man, next time a pro-gyro aiming thread is made, address it to developers instead of users. And move the "obviously gyro isn't for everyone" to the top adding "if you dislike it, move along, you don't need to bother posting, no one's asking for it to replace your dual-stick aiming". That'll save us the drive-bys and useless, time-wasting replies to them.
(And don't be cheeky at all in the OP cause they can't tell)

If someone comes in like "I don't wanna move my arms" or whatever, there's no need to say "no it's small adjustments" or "you just move your wrist a little" or whatever else to make them understand.

It doesn't matter if "Internet Nerd #4459" understands how I use gyro aiming or why I like it. I will not enjoy games more if they do. What matters to me is being given the option to use gyro aiming built into my controller in Ratchet and Clank, Returnal, Horizon, God of War and whatever else Sony publishes that has some form of cursor aiming. What matters to people who also play multiplatform games on console is that those games have gyro aim. And that the implementation in those titles is good. When those games come out and don't have gyro or implement it incorrectly, make threads addressing their devs and publishers.

Cause then those of us who want to use it will have it on, those who want to learn or adapt will try it and maybe ask for tips and those who aren't interested will leave it off.

Let's reach the point where developers have standardized gyro aiming as option and are implementing it correctly first, before worrying about people unwilling to learn the control method. That'll save us the meaningless debates from two groups of people that ultimately should be able to enjoy the same games if the option for gyro becomes standard.


Also basically, this (and every super-serious reply after it) made me snigger like a child:

Except 2 inches isn't 2 inches.
 

SrirachaX

Member
Apr 12, 2019
236
To be fair its pretty good, but just not very comfortable.

Following is my super cheese gameplay which I captured just now, I haven't spent a lot of time with Gyro/Flickstick and my DS4 v1 controller is insanely jittery with LS/RS/Gyro/Triggers (its as old as PS4 console generation).


Edit: People siding the Pro-Gyro/Flickstick discussion should provide their own gameplay videos, because I don't see any..

Take a look through the thread...some folks have posted their own or other gameplay vids, me included
 
Oct 27, 2017
3,665
I can't believe the heat this topic generates (though thread titles using words like 'lying' certainly don't help).

It's an ADDITIONAL control option. Why would you want to remove it?

It's an additional control OPTION. Why would you want to mandate it?
Because the key thrust of the thread isn't about whether gyroscopic controls should be an option (although the final statement does hope for more implementation), it's arguing that people who dislike gyroscopic controls do so because they're ignorant of the advantages it can bring with regards to accuracy, which totally misses why people dislike it in the first place for a factor which is largely irrelevant to most console players and is highly condescending in its dismissiveness.

Pretty unwaveringly throughout the thread people who dislike it have not suggested it should be removed and are fine with it as an option so it's facetious to try and portray that expressing a dislike of gyro controls is equivalent to wanting it removed as an alternative (it's, at worst, an apathy).

EDIT: Ironically, the closest argument I've seen about giving a reason for it not to be concluded has come from some of the people arguing most fervently in favour of it: if it gives such an advantage accuracy that not using it puts you at a significant disadvantage, and lobbies aren't separated based on using/not using gyro, then that gives a strong reason to actively not want it included when I've no interest in gyro controls. That isn't an opinion I personally have, but ironically those arguing most strongly about how people don't just 'get it' are making the best argument on why maybe it would be good to actively want it excluded from some games.
 
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KeRaSh

I left my heart on Atropos
Member
Oct 26, 2017
10,246
I'd love to try it without having to fiddle with drivers and tools on the PC.
Do any consoles games natively support flick stick right now?
 

Entryhazard

One Winged Slayer
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
2,843
The more read this thread more it's cllear some self-touted "core games" were scarred by the wii
 

mogwai00

Member
Mar 24, 2018
1,248
To be fair its pretty good, but just not very comfortable.

Following is my super cheese gameplay which I captured just now, I haven't spent a lot of time with Gyro/Flickstick and my DS4 v1 controller is insanely jittery with LS/RS/Gyro/Triggers (its as old as PS4 console generation).


Edit: People siding the Pro-Gyro/Flickstick discussion should provide their own gameplay videos, because I don't see any..


This is my gameplay


K+M

I know, gyro is a better aiming system than sticks only.
But here's the issue: FPS are not just about aiming.

FPS like Doom are more about performing several actions at once.

And I still have to see some Doom gyro gameplay that can match a classic gamepad situation with jump on L1 or on a backbutton.
Because aiming monsters in a (supposed) more accurate way while barely jump here and there is not playing Doom, is just an embarassing proof of concept.
 
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Cyclonesweep

Banned
Oct 29, 2017
7,690
I will end my time in this topic with the following

1. To everyone saying that gyro is objectively better and all the arguments against it are wrong: it literally doesn't matter. If gamers wanted the best input method, everything else be damned, they would be begging for KB+M to be usable on consoles, or just play on PC.

2. To people saying gyro objectively sucks: well this is wrong too. Gyro can be objectively more accurate

3. To everyone: options are good and options are great. It's absolutely fine to not like a certain method. If someone doesn't personally like an input method it isn't a god darn attack on you as a person. They don't need to be convinced they are wrong or stupid for not liking it