At best, it's bordering on it. Although with the aim assist and the cost, I'd say it is.
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XIM Adapters on Console - Can Sony / MS Do anything?
- Thread starter 8byte
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At best, it's bordering on it. Although with the aim assist and the cost, I'd say it is.
it's bullshit that I wish didn't exist or at least entirely segregated. apex at higher ranks gets savage as hell because of it.
They should be matched with people who are also not very good with a regular controller.
If i am not good or comfortable with M&K (on PC) using cheats / aimbots / etc. would not be your solution for the problem, right?
... and then poeple buy aimbots, cheats, with your logic. Somewhere is a line crossed and it's no longer fair play and that is in no one's* interest.
* except people who like to harm others
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That's a bit out of date, unfortunately: XIM can issue a firmware update to bypass any attempts to detect a XIM. It's obvious companies don't have the desire to go into an arms race that they know they can't win.
Same goes for those saying console makers implicitly allow mouse and keyboard adapters: Developers/publishers consider it cheating. Hence attempts by Epic to block the XIM.
like I said in my earlier post, there are many ways you can pay to get an advantage. A PS4 pro is paying more to get an advantage. better displays with less input lag. Fight sticks. Elite controllers. Better headphones with surround sound. These are all things that cost extra money that give you a non-negligible advantage. Just because you can pay extra to get an advantage it's not cheating. That's just reality. You may think it's unfair, but it's definitely within the parameters of the ecosystem. And many of these things enable people who would otherwise not be able to play games. So you should think twice before calling for a blanket ban.
This, I have carvain syndrome (think carpal tunnel syndrome, but for the wrist and thumb instead of the other fingers), so using my thumbs for extended (sometimes even just a few minutes) amounts of time is an exercise in pain, if not agony, and using this is the only way I can enjoy Destiny 2 properly without having to keep massaging my wrists and base of the thumb every 10 minutes.
Once cross-save is a thing in Destiny 2, however, when soloing I'll likely be playing on PC and hop on PS4 when joining up with my friends for raids and so on.
In all honesty - we are at the point now where it should just be crossplay with ranked matchmaking for everything. If you want to use a controller thats fine just play at lower ranks. I really think it could be damaging to the growth of games going forwards if people still feel the need to segregate it up.
Apex devs are supposedly looking into ways of detecting it - https://www.polygon.com/xbox-one/20...eating-keyboard-and-mouse-xbox-one-console-pc
We're at a stage where devs should permanently ban players if they deem it cheating (OW being one of them).
We're at a stage where devs should permanently ban players if they deem it cheating (OW being one of them).
All roads lead to the Personal Computer & its preferred method of interface. Just a further indicator of technological consolidation.
Ban people for using something that the console makers support, nice.
If that were the case it would have happened by now.
I could just as easily say all roads lead to comfy couch.
Each dev has the right to decide what they deem acceptable or not.
For a lot of people, Mouse and Keyboard are an easier option to use. For accessibility, it would be horrible to ban xim. You would be taking away the ability for many people to game by doing so.
I know losing a match sucks, but people being able to actually game at all is much more important than your win/loss ratio.
I know losing a match sucks, but people being able to actually game at all is much more important than your win/loss ratio.
The problem with Xim isn't that you can play m&k it's the fact that you can play m&k while playing in a game pad only server with the perks of aim assist and in some games bullet magnetism which are added because controllers aren't as accurate as m&k.
The fact that Xim encourages and actively insures that cross-plat games can't detect them proves that they know it's cheating.
The fact that Xim encourages and actively insures that cross-plat games can't detect them proves that they know it's cheating.
Fight Sticks and Elite Controllers aren't cheating though. At least for the Elite Controllers, it's still in the same parameters of the Xbox controllers but it has more buttons that can just do the same effect as the ones on the standard. Fight Sticks are also similar in that regard. The enhanced consoles don't really change too much visually except increase resolution or clean up IQ a bit. Unless the game runs or looks atrocious on the base console and the enhanced one is miles better, it wouldn't generally affect too much.
The problem with XIM is that those players have the benefit of keyboard and mouse with the combined benefit of controller in aim assist. It'd be great in having segregation in control schemes or at the least, disable aim assist for those users.
As an example, I thought Black Ops 3 PC handled it somewhat decently. Controller users got aim assist to help compensate the inaccuracy of the analog sticks but KB/M was still used albeit without that assist. That at least makes it a little more fair for controller users since any good PC player or controller user can kill each other.
I imagine its already been said in the thread but devs could easily implement checks for people moving beyond specific bounds of speed and apply timeouts, suspensions or bans for their specific services if they catch people doing this stuff.
They just don't implement this because they don't think its worth it.
They just don't implement this because they don't think its worth it.
Mouse+kb gameplay predates dual stick controllers for shooters and never were considered cheat for obvious reasons. Not even Sony and MS consider them cheats like aimbots. What is next? Paddle controllers also being cheats?
How do you even know these players were using XIM? Nothing I saw in the video was even that crazy. Just looks like someone playing with low sens and maybe an elite controller or something for the jump shots.
Maybe they were using smurf accounts, sure, but no idea what anyone is going to do about that. It just looks like they were rolling your team which sucks and is made worse in overwatch if no one plays as a team.
I'm sorry your team got beat up; there's always the next game.
E: high sens, whoops
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I understand the accessibility concerns, but Microsoft has the Xbox Adaptive controller and not to mention PCs can let you play m&k with no issue.
False equivalency. No one is saying m&k in and of itself is cheating. It's the fact that it's emulating controllers and playing against controller players that makes it cheating.
False equivalency. No one is saying m&k in and of itself is cheating. It's the fact that it's emulating controllers and playing against controller players that makes it cheating.
Honestly, using OW as an example, XIM users shouldn't be the reason you're losing. At least not usually. I say this as someone who used a XIM4 for OW on PS4 for a couple of months. I'm a PC player and my friends all only played on PS4. I tried using the controller and it felt genuinely terrible. XIM let me play with my friends with a control setup I preferred. It's definitely an advantage but I can't really say our groups success in masters was due to me having a XIM.
I can definitely see why people would prefer to know if someone is using one, I don't think outright banning them is the right answer.
I can definitely see why people would prefer to know if someone is using one, I don't think outright banning them is the right answer.
So a native support for m+kb would solve all the "problems", right? And there is people choosing to play with controller on pc vs m+kb. They are making others cheaters because of their choice, right?
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I guess that's more of a design choice. Native support would certainly mean a lot more people would be able to level the playing field (a M/KB combo goes for what? 15-20 bucks?) instead of having to plop $100+ if they want to have a competitive match that wont put them at a massive disadvantage.
As others have said, input based matching, pool xim and KB&M supported games together. Wont help For older games unless it's something that could be patched easily but going forward its a seemingly rather easy fix. No need to ban anyone and no gets accused of cheating.
The only exception would be the adaptive controller, if I remember correctly you cant use a mouse to control the analog sticks, someone correct me if that is wrong.
The only exception would be the adaptive controller, if I remember correctly you cant use a mouse to control the analog sticks, someone correct me if that is wrong.
I hope people here mentioning arcade sticks realise that it's an alternate control method of preference, not because it gives any unfair advantage over using a controller (some of the best players and most well-known tournament champions in the popular fighting games are pad players).
If these devices are tricking the systems into thinking KBM setup is a controller then I can't see how devs can keep up when firmware patches are a thing without platform holders having a system wide ban on 3rd party peripherals
If a game allows KBM setup to be used natively... that's fair game, but hopefully there's some sort of segregation between pad players and KBM users.
If these devices are tricking the systems into thinking KBM setup is a controller then I can't see how devs can keep up when firmware patches are a thing without platform holders having a system wide ban on 3rd party peripherals
If a game allows KBM setup to be used natively... that's fair game, but hopefully there's some sort of segregation between pad players and KBM users.
You are one of the most obtuse posters I've seen.
I'm almost interested in hearing your twisted views on everything else.
Almost.
But definitely not.
Controller support is built natively into games like that. If a game natively supports mixed lobbies I have no problem with it.
The problem with Xim is that it bypasses any native support on console games to pretend like it's a controller when the devs haven't intended m&k to be used in their games/controller-only lobbies
You can game on PC and not also ruin the matches of everyone else. This whole "I need to cheat for accessibility" thing is such bullshit, you just want an unfair advantage.
And anyone who would say using a mouse/keyboard vs. controllers isn't cheating obviously isn't very capable with a mouse and keyboard. It's like racing in a Lambo vs. a bunch of Kia Fortes. Yea, good job man you won!
they could always just officially support keyboard and mouse so you can just use your 20 dollar generic usb whatever to play.
Damn XIM is down to $100ish now? I'm seriously thinking about picking one up.
I far prefer using KB+Mouse over controller for shooters. I just can't get comfortable shooting with controllers.
I won't feel bad about it either because I don't play online games on PS4. All my online friends play PC so we game there.
I far prefer using KB+Mouse over controller for shooters. I just can't get comfortable shooting with controllers.
I won't feel bad about it either because I don't play online games on PS4. All my online friends play PC so we game there.
Why does it matter if it's native or not? Native would be even worse for controller players disadvantage.
I bet you are an aim assist lover.
I've been playing games for ~30 years of my life, and I watch a lot of OWL (and have been playing OW for 3 years on console). That is 100% keyboard and mouse movement.
I'd greatly prefer it being supported and separated by input type, as opposed to what we have now, which is inconsistently balances experiences.
Native + separate lobbies is what I'm arguing for.
Which is what Fortnite implemented, but then Xim released a firmware update within 24 hours to put Xim users back into controller lobbies. Which is what I'm against.
I just watched that video and didn't see any aim movement in kill cams that resembled intense mouse-aim movement. I've watched a lot of gamepad players on Twitch who put webcams above their controllers (NiceWigg is a fave) and this looks on par with their FPS performance. Am I missing something?
I don't think you understand this.
PS4 and XBO both do support the usage of Mouse and Keyboard.
However it only works for games that support it.
XIM cheats the system into thinking your using a regular PS4 or XBO controller when your using a M&K on games that do not support it.
So no, they would not be banning what the console makers support.
What about people who already posted in the forum that they play with controller and don't see a problem vs people using XIM? Screw them?
The HORI TAC Pro isn't the same thing as how FFXIV operates. The PS4 supports KB/M native, but the game has to support it as an input method. the TAC Pro is actually a controller and masquerades as one, like the XIM or Brook Sniper, but is a licensed product. If the developers wanted to support KBM native and thus wall people off they could.
You're going to have a hard time convincing me that getting sniped while rez'ing as Mercy, standing still as Zen or in turret mode as bastion must mean they were so accurate they had to be using XIM. But what do I know, I haven't been gaming for 30 years.
I do know using an elite controller with high sens you can absolutely move like that.
For what it's worth, I'm completely against using XIM, I just don't think this is an example of using it.
No, you don't understand this.
Look up the Hori Tac Pro KB/M that has both an official Sony and a Microsoft licensed versions. It does literally the exact same thing as the XIM, but it has official logos on the hardware.
You load up whatever game your heart desires and you play it. The HUD displays native controller prompts, but you're using the hardware to imitate the controller and happily play with keyboard buttons and (emulated) mouse aiming.
e: here they are
Well then that is just stupid.
What the fuck Sony?
What a bunch of morons.
Well at least from googling people say it's generally pretty shit so at least there's that.
To be fair, it doesn't always look just like normal PC movement because the devices still map the aimlook to the right stick in the system, so there are limitations. There were one or two moments of the kill cam showing things that, while not impossible on a pad, aren't all that easy even for higher level players. The amount of delay in the head aim and the shot a few times makes it a little clearer. That being said, the video kind of sucks because half the kill cam feeds were being covered by the team makeup overlay. OP sucks at taking videos for evidence of supposed foul play.
I've been on the receiving end of some very obvious mouse aiming, but what I saw in the video earlier didn't seem particularly egregious. I've had some McCree player pop me awfully fast, while moving and it was infuriating.
Very few console players are downing 4/6 players solo with headshots in a span of 5 seconds on a controller.
Even fewer are pinning teams in mystery heroes in spawn for 5 minutes. I already stated I checked out competitively as soon as I saw the Widow go off on 3 people in 3 seconds. Watch the kill feed. This happens for the whole match, lol.
It's unquestionably someone using XiM. Especially if they're getting headshots while airborne as Widow.
Why is this always the parity hill that console gamers want to die on? That ship sailed away over a decade ago, when things like latency, TV response time, TV resolution, widespread use of alternate controllers, etc entered the scene.
I get it. I used to be a big advocate of parity myself when it came to multiplayer. I thought WoW Classic was ruined by the forced use of third-party tools in order to even join a relevant guild. I used to think netdecking was one of the worst things to happen to TCGs. But the pre-Internet days are over, there's no such thing as parity anymore.
Even consoles themselves come in multiple SKUs with varying resolutions and framerates per game. The guy playing Overwatch on his PS4 with a CRT and a 200 ping because the nearest server is 4000 miles away, using satellite internet with an ISP modem/router is never going to perform as well as the girl playing Overwatch on her PS4 Pro on the East Coast on 15 ping with a high-response monitor or HDTV with a M+KB emulating controller inputs on a fiber optic gigabit connection with a nice wired ASUS modem/router.
The real complaint here is about smurfing/alts and how prevalent they are in Overwatch because buying the game once on console means infinite smurf accounts. This is rampant even on PC where the typical smurf account costs $15. Its a failing of the matchmaking system that is more concerned about aspects other than creating a roughly fair match. Remember the Activision Blizzard patent about matchmaking based on what skins a player owned, about matchmaking them against players who owned skins they didn't and then matching them against easier opponents when they bought said skin?
Smurfing is the real problem without a clear solution. Giving someone tools to up their performance simply means they'll be in a higher matchmaking bracket than you, all other things being equal. You won't see them, and they won't see you. There isn't some big rewarding scene for going pro on console.
Even if smurfing was somehow dealt with, you still have the problem of matchmaking players who are not putting in equal amounts of investment. On PC, going to Quick Play is a death sentence for me. I'm a lifetime Platinum player who always plays to win, over things like practicing mechanics or trying to set a new headshot record with Widow. As a result, my typical Quick Play experience is being the only Platinum in the room that is generally 50% Diamond and 50% Master/GM. My mechanics are already below-average by Platinum standards, so this basically means I'm getting outplayed by the entire room if they're giving a damn that particular match.
I get it. I used to be a big advocate of parity myself when it came to multiplayer. I thought WoW Classic was ruined by the forced use of third-party tools in order to even join a relevant guild. I used to think netdecking was one of the worst things to happen to TCGs. But the pre-Internet days are over, there's no such thing as parity anymore.
Even consoles themselves come in multiple SKUs with varying resolutions and framerates per game. The guy playing Overwatch on his PS4 with a CRT and a 200 ping because the nearest server is 4000 miles away, using satellite internet with an ISP modem/router is never going to perform as well as the girl playing Overwatch on her PS4 Pro on the East Coast on 15 ping with a high-response monitor or HDTV with a M+KB emulating controller inputs on a fiber optic gigabit connection with a nice wired ASUS modem/router.
The real complaint here is about smurfing/alts and how prevalent they are in Overwatch because buying the game once on console means infinite smurf accounts. This is rampant even on PC where the typical smurf account costs $15. Its a failing of the matchmaking system that is more concerned about aspects other than creating a roughly fair match. Remember the Activision Blizzard patent about matchmaking based on what skins a player owned, about matchmaking them against players who owned skins they didn't and then matching them against easier opponents when they bought said skin?
Smurfing is the real problem without a clear solution. Giving someone tools to up their performance simply means they'll be in a higher matchmaking bracket than you, all other things being equal. You won't see them, and they won't see you. There isn't some big rewarding scene for going pro on console.
Even if smurfing was somehow dealt with, you still have the problem of matchmaking players who are not putting in equal amounts of investment. On PC, going to Quick Play is a death sentence for me. I'm a lifetime Platinum player who always plays to win, over things like practicing mechanics or trying to set a new headshot record with Widow. As a result, my typical Quick Play experience is being the only Platinum in the room that is generally 50% Diamond and 50% Master/GM. My mechanics are already below-average by Platinum standards, so this basically means I'm getting outplayed by the entire room if they're giving a damn that particular match.
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That's not the same thing. A different controller still requires 100% of the input be from the player. It's not some cheat that automates things.
They already do, but it's up to the developer to allow it in their games. This is the thing that kind of annoyed me when Blizzard devs were bitching about people using these a while back, they were trying to put it onto the platform holders to fix it when the PS4 already supported mouse and keyboard and the Xbone had it coming in beta.