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EvilBoris

Prophet of Truth - HDTVtest
Verified
Oct 29, 2017
16,678
This has been speculated for a while that it looked like the Xbox Series X/S expansion storage could have been a variant on CFexpress cards.

You can see in the image above how similar the shape of the card is and also how the layout and pins and number of pins appear to be shared between the 2 devices.
Jez Corden last night confirmed this is the case.


Now presumably Xbox's requirement to have a removable and portable storage media that is fast enough for next gen titles took them down the route of looking at CFexpress.
If you aren't familiar with Compact Flash, it is a long-standing storage format, most typically used by DSLR cameras, more recently it was phased out by SD cards in many instances, but as we rapidly approach the limit of speed within SD cards and the need for faster portable camera storage increases, due to 4K /8K/HDR video bandwidth, CFexpress has stepped in to offer a solution.

CFe cards would however be both prohibitively expensive - they are designed to be very small and to not generate as much heat.
This combination of factors means that even a card that falls short of what the Xbox Series S/X requires is currently significantly more expensive than it's physically larger cousins,
cvp.com

Buy - Angelbird AB-AVP2TBCFX (ABAVP2TBCFX) AV PRO CFexpress Type-B Card - 2TB - 1 Pack

We have the Angelbird AV PRO CFexpress Type B - 2TB (AB-AVP2TBCFX) IN STOCK now for immediate delivery and many other media & readers in stock. Expert advice and a full range of help and support services come as standard to all our customers. Speak to us today about your requirements.

1TB at 1700MBps is £922 here ($1203)

So it looks as if Microsoft has taken the basic CFexpress interface, encased it in a larger heatsink/shroud (which is thermally connected to the inside of the machine) which has opened the doors to faster/cheaper/larger NVME chips vs the type more commonly used within the CFexpress cards.

So what does this mean?
Hopefully, this should mean that due to the standard nature of the interface, adapters to use other types of storage can easily be produced by 3rd parties. (recently confirmed to be coming in the future)

It even means that you may be able to if you are so inclined. Use a homemade or purchased adapter to attach an M2 drive to your Xbox. Although this solution isn't significantly cheaper than the official devices, this should calm the thoughts of those concerned that this propriety device might mean that costs over time would be artificially inflated.
Like the PS5 however, a custom solution is going to need to be benchmarked for sustained and throttled speed to ensure it matches what the games are designed to use. However even you didn't choose to go this route for your next gen titles, this does open the door to a faster than USB 3.1 storage to be used, even for your BC "cold" storage.
 
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EvilBoris

EvilBoris

Prophet of Truth - HDTVtest
Verified
Oct 29, 2017
16,678
Return of the Flash Card?
Bring back SmartMedia cards I say

NaPEURGPPPrzQlRe9RoVhwtsNAurF1c8wj-M1JZqxRoMmv-Vcs9vCjVrH7vE2KaJz8YFPju6u8u190DXjoir3wUCKwjZl8RPuF8cZZo7WGjk
 
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EvilBoris

EvilBoris

Prophet of Truth - HDTVtest
Verified
Oct 29, 2017
16,678
Quoting me from another thread.



I guess this should be possible now.

yeah, I linked to a couple of options in the OP.
I'm not sure if the physical connector is the same shape at this point, but there are definitely electronics that allow this to happen.
 

wollywinka

Member
Feb 15, 2018
3,094
And there I was thinking the CF card had gone the way of the dodo. I remember my Akai MPC1000 had one back in 2003. Good times.
 

Jonnax

Member
Oct 26, 2017
4,919
This is Microsoft.
They would likely employ some security for this.
Such as a lockout chip or device whitelist.
 

CliveLH

Member
Jun 22, 2019
2,225
I don't see any solid proof here. As far as I know, CFExpress based on PCIe 4.0 doesn't exist yet. CFExpress 2.0 (the last version) uses PCIE3.0 and we know the SSD of the Xbox Series X aswell as the Seagated card both use PCIe 4.0.
 

Joo

Member
May 25, 2018
3,864
While this would be great, there's very little sense or chance that MS would go this far to have a proprietary expansion just for folks to have a workaround this easy.

There's almost bound to be some protection in place. Like wouldn't this be a bit too good and nonsensical to be true?
 

cyrribrae

Chicken Chaser
Member
Jan 21, 2019
12,723
Hmm interesting, Brad Sams did suggest that we could potentially see 3rd party adapters that would allow off the shelf drives (as we've seen with previous consoles - though, I feel that was more speculation than anything). With the recent DF video, it does seem that the limits of SSDs on the Xbox consoles (at least with BC games) come down to the software and USB interface. Bypassing those might or might not be locked by a customized connection, but if not, we might see some pretty simple ways to leverage this expansion tech.

Would be wild if we could eventually buy a 3rd party adapter that lets us actually hot swap off-the-shelf PCIE4.0 drives (or.. potentially even just PCIE3.0?). Might just come down to the software. IONO! We'll see :D
 
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EvilBoris

EvilBoris

Prophet of Truth - HDTVtest
Verified
Oct 29, 2017
16,678
Ah really?
So you can just replace the internal drive with a different drive?
Yeah, you just need to use
While this would be great, there's very little sense or chance that MS would go this far to have a proprietary expansion just for folks to have a workaround this easy.

There's almost bound to be some protection in place. Like wouldn't this be a bit too good and nonsensical to be true?

I guess you have to look at the reasons why they Have done it in the first place.

Size
Ease of Access
Plug and Play
Portability
Easy to support

Those factors explain why we have the solution we have now and this is in line with The Xbox's longstanding support for USB storage.

If you take the more cynical view that they wanted to make a few $ from licensing the Xbox brand to Seagate for each unit sold , then I'm sure there were even more inflexible ways they could have achieved this that were more beneficial, whilst using cheaper parts.

The reality of this is that any adapter realeased of hacked together by the community is not going to be a mainstream solution that sits in a retail box next to the games in Walmart.
It's kind of the antithesis of what a console is.

In the same way you'll have found very few people that have upgrade their Xbox internal drives to SSDs or faster devices which might give marginal , enthusiast increases in performance.
 
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Prine

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
15,724
Nice bit of detective work there Boris. Had no idea about CF cards.
 

Lobster Roll

signature-less, now and forever
Member
Sep 24, 2019
34,278
While this would be great, there's very little sense or chance that MS would go this far to have a proprietary expansion just for folks to have a workaround this easy.

There's almost bound to be some protection in place. Like wouldn't this be a bit too good and nonsensical to be true?
It's the equivalent of owning a car and paying somebody else to change your oil. It's an extremely easy thing to do as far as car maintenance goes, but people would rather just take it to an auto repair shop or a dealership or a friend to do instead. The average gamer, and not one on an enthusiast forum like Era, is very unlikely to open up either their PS5 / XSX to mess around with anything on the inside of it. Last-gen, USB plug-in SSDs are fine. You just jam it into a port and it's good to go. This proprietary SSD, while expensive, provides a solution of having a high-speed SSD that matches the same speed as the internal one that can also just be jammed in without thought. Trust me when I say that an overwhelming majority of players are more likely to delete and replace files on their PS5 than the ones willing to crack it open and use a screwdriver for any SSD storage increase.
 

neoak

Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,257
Hmm interesting, Brad Sams did suggest that we could potentially see 3rd party adapters that would allow off the shelf drives (as we've seen with previous consoles - though, I feel that was more speculation than anything). With the recent DF video, it does seem that the limits of SSDs on the Xbox consoles (at least with BC games) come down to the software and USB interface. Bypassing those might or might not be locked by a customized connection, but if not, we might see some pretty simple ways to leverage this expansion tech.

Would be wild if we could eventually buy a 3rd party adapter that lets us actually hot swap off-the-shelf PCIE4.0 drives (or.. potentially even just PCIE3.0?). Might just come down to the software. IONO! We'll see :D
Has to be PCIe 4.0
 
Oct 27, 2017
2,471
I don't remember it being that easy to upgrade the 360 HDD tbh. But this was the original model with the removable HDD casing.

Feel like I had to fuck around with hex values and stuff, and it only supported very certain hard drives.
 

dallow_bg

Member
Oct 28, 2017
10,623
texas
I'm ready to eat crow as I said there's no way XSX would be the first device to have PCIe 4.0 CFExpress cards essentially since they don't exist.

Closer to being confirmed now I suppose.

I don't remember it being that easy to upgrade the 360 HDD tbh. But this was the original model with the removable HDD casing.

Feel like I had to fuck around with hex values and stuff, and it only supported very certain hard drives.
Yup. I gave up and had to buy an official one
 

kradical

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
6,570
Yeah, my memory of unofficially upgrading the 360 HDD was that it was a pretty torturous process that involved trawling a list to find a compatible drive and then flashing something or formatting it in a special way from a PC.
 

Deleted member 9857

user requested account closure
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
2,977
I'm ready to eat crow as I said there's no way XSX would be the first device to have PCIe 4.0 CFExpress cards essentially since they don't exist.

Closer to being confirmed now I suppose.

yeah if this is accurate then $220 is a steal, but given Seagate/Xbox history with pricing on accessories I still highly doubt it
 

DopeyFish

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,783
Is the Xbox Series X not capped at 2 lanes for the expansion port? That's what I meant.

oh

if it's 2 SSD for one controller then I guess it could be 2 lanes per SSD

controller is still 4x4 but each SSD is 4x2...

i guess i should have thought that plugging in the SSD doesn't take priority over the controller
 

sangreal

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,890
This isn't really surprising since they look just like the CFExpress Seagate Lyve cards announced earlier this year, but is this the reason the internal SSD is limited to a speed much slower than its PCIE4.0 interface could support?
 

DarthWalden

Prophet of Truth
The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
6,030
Thanks for the write up.

I was hoping for a solution like this. It reminds me of when I bought the Xbox 360 hard drive adaptor and just put my own storage device in there.
 

Chippewa Barr

Member
Aug 8, 2020
3,948
CFe to NVME/PCI4 external adapters no doubt will start to pop up (if they aren't around already).

I assume either drives for this (and PS5's internal expansion bay) will either:

1) have strict whitelists for next gen games only or,
2) will be able to accommodate both next gen expansion (if meets spec) and storage/BC gaming (if below spec).

I hope for #2 and that it notifies you upon install if it meets/fails spec.
 
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EvilBoris

EvilBoris

Prophet of Truth - HDTVtest
Verified
Oct 29, 2017
16,678
CFe to NVME/PCI4 external adapters no doubt will start to pop up (if they aren't around already).

I assume either drives for this (and PS5's internal expansion bay) will either:

1) have strict whitelists for next gen games only or,
2) will be able to accommodate both next gen expansion (if meets spec) and storage/BC gaming (if below spec).

I hope for #2 and that it notifies you upon install if it meets/fails spec.

The diy adapter I posted in the OP is literally just joining wires at each end of the-device and 4 capacitors, so hopefully yeah!
That's if things are that straightforward
 

senj

Member
Nov 6, 2017
4,430
I got that. I just hadn't heard the name since I dunno, early 00s?
It's held on in high-end digital cameras because it was physically faster than SD – better for things like burst sports photography. It's only in the last couple of years starting to phase out in favour of XQD/CFExpress from the same standards group.