Nvidia has one (Optix) but it's not for realtime renders. yet
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"Xbox Series X Hot Chips 2020 Deep Dive"
- Thread starter chris 1515
- Start date
It's quite obvious that they do. 🤣
With all of this machine learning I wonder how much work it will take the BC team to add these features to existing games for more free upgrades.
So, 8MB of L3 cache for the CPU, that's a lot for a console.
Did the CPU in the Scorpio Engine SoC for Xbox One Xbox really have 1MB L3 cache or is this (and PS5) the first time that consoles have had any L3 cache at all?
Did the CPU in the Scorpio Engine SoC for Xbox One Xbox really have 1MB L3 cache or is this (and PS5) the first time that consoles have had any L3 cache at all?
First time they had L3.
Should help with lowering CPU's need to hit main memory.
In the low KB range for each instance.
As I said in a different post, I think it's the coherency and hw acceleration blocks responsible for most of it.
Their SSD is very small, I thought they use something like BG4, but in a PCIe v4 version
Not Found | KIOXIA
BG4 is a integrated controller and NAND into one chip
Can this fit with four NAND chips on that small board used both internal and external?PHISON Electronics Corp. - PS5019-E19T
www.phison.com
they use this as their controller
Found this that kind of confirms it, but it could have changed from prototype to release HW...
Microsoft Xbox Series X får SSD-lagring över PCI Express 4.0
Innan Microsoft avtäcker detaljerna runt Xbox Series X visar läckta bilder utbud av portar och SSD-lagring över PCI Express 4.0.
www.sweclockers.com
Guess they could put controller on one side and 4xNAND on the other to keep it small.
Where this 17% RT number came from?
Also, even at more than 10GB for games the XSX RAM BW will still be higher than the PS5.
They make most of their money from the Xbox store sales: DLC, digital games, etc. Of course they still want to sell as many consoles as they can.
Has it been updated? I vaguely remember the Digital Foundry rt analysis of this game but I don't remember the rt being a home run and there was plenty of slowdown.
u can play control with all RT effects and DLSS at 60fps on a 2080ti.
What I've been saying still stands: those who think Microsoft wants to aggressively undercut sony with the series X will be dissapointed. They will be competitive and probably be a little lower.
Ah I forgot DLSS 2.0 was not a thing when rt first debuted in Control.
It should definitely prevent the CPUs from stalling as much compared to the Jaguars. I was hoping for 16MB but I knew that would be a stretch when Microsoft revealed the size of the die earlier this year.
For AMD the RT tech is in the CU's. MS has more CU's so they will have more RT grunt. However it's comparable to the difference in GPU power so the PS5 will probably have a lower resolution on both sides and perform pretty much the same.
Their SSD is very small, I thought they use something like BG4, but in a PCIe v4 version
Not Found | KIOXIA
business.kioxia.com
BG4 is a integrated controller and NAND into one chip
Can this fit with four NAND chips on that small board used both internal and external?
Found this that kind of confirms it, but it could have changed from prototype to release HW...
Microsoft Xbox Series X får SSD-lagring över PCI Express 4.0
Innan Microsoft avtäcker detaljerna runt Xbox Series X visar läckta bilder utbud av portar och SSD-lagring över PCI Express 4.0.
Guess they could put controller on one side and 4xNAND on the other to keep it small.
The more recent NAND packages can feed 2 or even 4 channels from a single chip, they're BGA with a very high pin count, and can have stacked dies. So I wouldn't be surprised both the internal and external implementations are effectively the 5019T controller with only 1 or 2 NAND chips.
It's likely that anything more than 8MB is in diminishing returns territory for gaming. Otherwise we would have seen 16mb and a 370mm2 chip.
if that's the case how long will it take for savings to kick in with mass producing the chips? i forsee both the ps5 and one x staying at the price they launch at for a really long time. well except if one is more expensive than the other then we might see black friday sales to match it.
DirectX-Graphics-Samples/Samples/Desktop/D3D12Raytracing/src/D3D12RaytracingRealTimeDenoisedAmbientOcclusion at master · microsoft/DirectX-Graphics-Samples
This repo contains the DirectX Graphics samples that demonstrate how to build graphics intensive applications on Windows. - microsoft/DirectX-Graphics-Samples
github.com
Though I think that I was mistaken about the denoiser being ML based.
Possibly, although the desktop equivalents have 32MB, which to be fair is enormous. The benefits might have been there but costs probably came into it.
In any case it's a massive improvement on Jaguar, as I said.
The FP32 and RT performance will not scale in a similar way. RT will have a significant advantage when compare to FP32 from the 44% more CUs.
A lot of people are saying 599 is too much given the BOM. But this time around it seems to be that both manufacturers have spent a lot of money on R and D and development of the architecture. Sony in particular with their cooling solution and all custom SSD solution, they have to recoup that money somehow the BOM might be 450-500$ but there is an untold amount that will be from all this work they are doing.
Sorry not a dev didn't realize you were. Why did you ask then if you know the specs and how it works? Why not just correct the person?
This is objectively wrong.
First, they don't only sell games on Windows Store, they also support Steam.
Second, they get 0% of revenue for third party games sold on Windows.
Finally, they get no revenue from Gold on Windows (this may be going away, but it is still true right now).
Really a beast of a console. Surely won't be cheap. 499 is minimum for this.
I think very slightly higher if we compare raw numbers
Which slide is that?
I think very slightly higher if we compare raw numbers
Which slide is that?
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OP
OP
RT scale with CU and frequency
It is 18% more Tflops and 18% more power for RT. 4 Texture or ray ops per clock and per CU.
I have no idea about hardware. I understand more CU's = higher ray tracing performance, but how does the clock frequency affect ray tracing hardware in RDNA2?
I think im leaning towards $599 on this...........xbox is going for an ecosystem not most systems sold. If the lower end model is true they have no need to have it be insanely cheap as they would have something that does that already for entering the ecosystem.
I am not knowledgeable in this area, but here would be the math:
xbox is at 1825 mhz, 52 CUs
playstation is at 2230 mhz, 36 CUs
4 ray ops per clock per CU
for xbox:
1825*52*4=379600
for playstation:
2230*36*4=321120
xbox over playstation = 379600/321120 x 100 = 118.2%
So, all said and done assuming real life performance follows theoretical, xbox is 18% faster in RT performance. Again, I am not an expert at all in this, but the math seems simple enough.
There are so many of these small memories, and the blocks they are included in get multiply instantiated. I think you'd be surprised at how it all adds up.
And yes, I expect there's a bunch of it in the blocks you mention, as well.
In another slide they sound like bandwidth is a bigger limitation factor for RT performance than the amount of hardware, though I imagine the extra count will help load balance texture/ray ops too.RT scale with CU and frequency
It is 18% more Tflops and 18% more power for RT. 4 Texture or ray ops per clock and per CU.
No, it isn't.
The SoC has 2.5 the amount of transistors the X SoC has.
If you use that factor for the size you come out @ >900mm², that is a huge chip, ofc such a monster would be far more costly.
Reread what i wrote.
The thing is that with AMD RT performance gets affected by other things besides the clock frequency. In RDNA2 the TMUs either do texture work or BVH checking and ray intersections so besides the clock frequency it will depends on which TMUs are free to do the RT calculations, therefore in a perfect scenario 18% will very likely the minimum difference you will see and the difference will vary depending on the application.
OP
OP
At the end the most important things the SOC cost more than the one in Xbox One X at release. It was 367 mm2 and here it is 360.4 mm2. What is interesting is the cost by mm2 and it is higher on 7nm than 16nm. RAM cost a bit more too, Storage cost much more, double motherboad cost more. At the end the Xbox Series X cost much more to produce than Xbox one X and maybe the MSRP will be 599 dollars.
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$599 looking more and more likely for both next gen IMO.
I even wouldn't be totally shocked to see like 649 PS5, 549 PS5 DE (599 xsx)
also, series x is a beast!
I'm sure we'll see plenty of it but looks to more like it'll be targeted. The games wont just be bathing in ray tracing. Instead certain key things might be, and we'll love it.
Based on the bus XSX has most probably 5MB of L2 cache. If they had more they would have claimed it like they did with XBX.
it will be the biggest surprise of the gen if ps5 is more expensive
yeah, that was expected from the start. some rt effects, not fully raytraced complex games
Microsoft takes a 30% cut of all game sales on the xbox/windows store game store on pc.
Apps sold on the windows store, microsoft takes a 5% cut. Look it up.
Again people keep trying to equate series X cost with what Sony is doing. Everything on the ps5 screams cost savings (the controller BOM should not be that more expensive than the DualShock), even the I/O controller, shit Cerny even hinted at the cost savings when mentioning the reason they went with the ssd final number. XSX will definitely be expensive, the series S will be the cheaper model, not sure why that's being argued or why ppl keep trying to drag the ps5 to be 600 too
That's pretty much irrelevant, third party games don't sell on Windows Store. You're like really grasping at straws here. It is easy to see how Microsoft makes more gaming money on consoles than PC. And it's exactly what insiders have spoken about.
The cost per mm² never went down with a new fab process, what went down was the cost per transistor, because you could cram more of them into those mm².
And yes the the cost per mm² keeps going up, because it gets more and more complex, but i already said that in my OG post, that's why i asked you to reread it:
"The difference now is that the process is more complicated and thus more expensive than 16nm was, meaning you don't have the same cost reduction as before."
