• Ever wanted an RSS feed of all your favorite gaming news sites? Go check out our new Gaming Headlines feed! Read more about it here.
  • We have made minor adjustments to how the search bar works on ResetEra. You can read about the changes here.

litebrite

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
21,832
I'm curious to see this thing of " doubling the framerate " , to me is impossible but BC team are known as wizard ....so let see !

last tweet about BC from Jason Ronald ( kind of chief of the BC team and also Xbox Series X )

twitter.com

Jason Ronald on Twitter

“@Logmey92 Appreciate the continued push and support. We are always listening and we know there are still some favorites the community would like to see added to the program. Some have very challenging licensing issues, but keep asking and maybe we will be able to find a solution.”
If it was impossible than the BC team wouldn't suggest it was possible. LOL
 

Dimajjio

Member
Oct 13, 2019
782
I have faith they'll find a way to overcome hard locked 30fps limits using DirectML. They've managed to emulate an entire console, the framerate thing should be a walk in the park.
 
Apr 4, 2018
4,513
Vancouver, BC
I have faith they'll find a way to overcome hard locked 30fps limits using DirectML. They've managed to emulate an entire console, the framerate thing should be a walk in the park.

I'm not sure why you believe DirectML would have an effect on this?

I have no doubt the BC can can find ways to uncap/ unlock the framerate on many, if not most games. The concern is that doing so could break logic in the game (the game running at double speed, some animations and effects running at double speed while the rest runs normal, cutscene not lining up with camera cuts, causing a game to break for example). It could require a lot of testing to ensure the standard level of quality.

I really look forward to this though. It would be amazing to see them uncap framerates on all generations of Xbox games. That could lead to many games maybe even running at 120fps. Could you imagine Ninja Gaiden 2 or Ninja Gaiden Black at 120fps? That would be Incredible.

I also wonder if there are X360 games that had 4k patches in the works but were dropped due to performance issues. Perhaps those could be reinstated for XSX.
 

Gatsbits

Member
Oct 28, 2018
795
Also, I think that to turn a locked 30fps game to 60fps ( if it s technically possible) requires the publisher/studio's agreement ... not easy to get .Some are very conservative lol
i think that it could happen on first party games like FH 1 , the 3 gears of war and some Rare games .
 

speedomodel

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,167
I thought they always said they paused the program to make sure games worked properly for next gen before adding more. I understood it as they were always going to return to adding games once next gen was solid.

I'd imagine we'll see more original Xbox titles, as they barely tapped into that well.
 

Nacery

Member
Jul 11, 2018
1,479
I'm curious to see this thing of " doubling the framerate " , to me is impossible but BC team are known as wizard ....so let see !

last tweet about BC from Jason Ronald ( kind of chief of the BC team and also Xbox Series X )

twitter.com

Jason Ronald on Twitter

“@Logmey92 Appreciate the continued push and support. We are always listening and we know there are still some favorites the community would like to see added to the program. Some have very challenging licensing issues, but keep asking and maybe we will be able to find a solution.”
It really depend on the game. But some games in PC only require a single line of code to unlock the framerrate. If the BC team can have access to the game source files maybe they can tweak this setting safely
 

Edward850

Software & Netcode Engineer at Nightdive Studios
Verified
Apr 5, 2019
992
New Zealand
It really depend on the game. But some games in PC only require a single line of code to unlock the framerrate. If the BC team can have access to the game source files maybe they can tweak this setting safely
Aside from the frankly strange situation that would be (you don't just hand source code over to a platform holder), just having source code doesn't allow you to make arbitrary changes. You need to compile source code into a brand new binary for it to do anything, that's a whole development process that wouldn't be remotely in the scope of their BC team. The only real chance the Xbox BC team would have is if there's some plaintext config file they'd be lucky enough to hijack or some weird quirk in how a games vsync worked (this happened exactly once).

If 60FPS patches were to happen on that scope, it'd be far more likely it'd be up to the original studio to submit patches for with some kind of alternative SKU or an OS environment detection added to the API for the studio to added to their code. However even if that happened adoption would be super low, these are ancient codebases with equally ancient Middleware licenses, there would be a non-zero number of games that would need to renew licences just to compile a new build, assuming they even still had working project files, tools, or even source code that hasn't suffered substantial archival rot.
 
Last edited:

Irrotational

Prophet of Truth
Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,155
Aside from the frankly strange situation that would be (you don't just hand source code over to a platform holder), just having source code doesn't allow you to make arbitrary changes. You need to compile source code into a brand new binary for it to do anything, that's a whole development process that wouldn't be remotely in the scope of their BC team. The only real chance the Xbox BC team would have is if there's some plaintext config file they'd be lucky enough to hijack or some weird quirk in how a games vsync worked (this happened exactly once).

If 60FPS patches were to happen on that scope, it'd be far more likely it'd be up to the original studio to submit patches for with some kind of alternative SKU or an OS environment detection added to the API for the studio to added to their code. However even if that happened adoption would be super low, these are ancient codebases with equally ancient Middleware licenses, there would be a non-zero number of games that would need to renew licences just to compile a new build, assuming they even still had working project files, tools, or even source code that hasn't suffered substantial archival rot.
Licencing and permission wise, if the devs/publisher have given permission for the game to go into the 360 BC emulation program, then are MS OK to run frame interpolation in the emulator (somehow!?) and interpolate out a 60 FPS version as opposed to 30 FPS?

I've no idea what signal Xbox'es currently send to TV's when the game is running at 30. Do they send a 30 signal so the TV just matches the frame rate? or do they send 60 FPS and just double whatever frames theyve got from a 30 FPS game.

I'm trying to figure out if the emulator could somehow generate a better "proxy" 60 FPS than whatever scalar/video encoder works on the game output (e.g. to downscale it to 1080p or upscale it to 4k).

It's really handy to have actual industry people on this forum - sorry for the questions!
 

Edward850

Software & Netcode Engineer at Nightdive Studios
Verified
Apr 5, 2019
992
New Zealand
You're thinking of motion interpolation, which is currently a "popular" post processing effect on HDTVs. Microsoft wouldn't need anyone's permission to add that, but it's also not a great effect when used in games given the unnatural combination of static and dynamic imagery. I could see it being quite unlikely they'd introduce that without substantial break throughs in the technology first.

As for what the video signal is doing, I can't be quite sure if the Xbox is changing anything when it's finally output, but 30FPS games will only typically swap buffers at 30Hz, so the Xbox itself would at least be aware that it's 30.
 

Kida

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,899
Where did you get that Rockstar didn't allow the BC team to enhance ,I assume, GTA IV ?
Because they let them do RDR1 but not GTAIV. They run on the same engine and would have been a big PR coup so I assume Rockstar said no, presumably to not to take any attention away from GTAV or to make it look inferior for never getting a patch on Xbox or PS4 pro.
 

litebrite

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
21,832
Because they let them do RDR1 but not GTAIV. They run on the same engine and would have been a big PR coup so I assume Rockstar said no, presumably to not to take any attention away from GTAV or to make it look inferior for never getting a patch on Xbox or PS4 pro.
Yeah, you're assuming wrong and worst of all asserting it as fact in your previous post.
 

Kida

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,899
Yeah, you're assuming wrong and worst of all asserting it as fact in your previous post.
Maybe it isn't the case that GTA IV was denied. Maybe it was a technical reason (though unlikely given that they enhanced a game running on the same engine).

But it's pretty obvious that MS asked permission before releasing an enhanced version of a game which is what the original post was about. If they didn't they could end up in a situation similar to Nvidia's streaming service with publishers being upset.
 

litebrite

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
21,832
And you're assuming that I'm wrong. Maybe it isn't the case that GTA IV was denied. Maybe it was a technical reason (though unlikely given that they enhanced a game running on the same engine).

But it's pretty obvious that MS asked permission before releasing an enhanced version of a game which is what the original post was about. If they didn't they could end up in a situation similar to Nvidia's streaming service with publishers being upset.
My issue was how you stated it in your original post as if it's fact based on nothing. If anything due to Rockstar allowing MS to enhance RDR means the publisher is open to it on BC 360 games, just because GTA IV wasn't; doesn't necessarily mean anything yet alone assuming that Rockstar didn't let them. That's silly.
 

Kida

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,899
My issue was how you stated it in your original post as if it's fact based on nothing. If anything due to Rockstar allowing MS to enhance RDR means the publisher is open to it on BC 360 games, just because GTA IV wasn't; doesn't necessarily mean anything yet alone assuming that Rockstar didn't let them. That's silly.
Yes I will admit it was presumptious. But there was a lot of discussion at the time why they didn't enhance IV. It's an obvious game to enhance and it's likely it was technically possible given RDR. It also would have been a standout title and big news like 4K RDR.

RDR had good reason to be enhanced as it's story was very important to what was at the time the forthcoming RDR2 and people would want to play/buy an enhanced version.

A 4K GTAIV wouldn't have the same benefit forRockstar. All their focus was on keeping players in GTA Online.
 

litebrite

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
21,832
Yes I will admit it was presumptious. But there was a lot of discussion at the time why they didn't enhance IV. It's an obvious game to enhance and it's likely it was technically possible given RDR. It also would have been a standout title and big news like 4K RDR.

RDR had good reason to be enhanced as it's story was very important to what was at the time the forthcoming RDR2 and people would want to play/buy an enhanced version.

A 4K GTAIV wouldn't have the same benefit forRockstar. All their focus was on keeping players in GTA Online.
Once again you're basing all of this off of nothing. LOL We don't know and there's no indication one way or the other. It could've simply been the BC team didn't have time to even try it, or they encountered heavy technical issues preventing it from happening. It's weird you don't consider these as reasonable possibilities but instead jump to Rockstar must've not let them. Enhancing GTA IV would've had very little impact on GTA Online, because people play GTA Online for the online multiplayer experience on current gen so I don't even get how you make the correlation between the two.
 

krg

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,901
Maybe it isn't the case that GTA IV was denied. Maybe it was a technical reason (though unlikely given that they enhanced a game running on the same engine).

But it's pretty obvious that MS asked permission before releasing an enhanced version of a game which is what the original post was about. If they didn't they could end up in a situation similar to Nvidia's streaming service with publishers being upset.
well Ninja Gaiden 2 was enhanced but 3 wasn't. I think these games require a lot of testing and it's not as simple as editing a .txt file.
 

Kida

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,899
Once again you're basing all of this off of nothing. LOL We don't know and there's no indication one way or the other. It could've simply been the BC team didn't have time to even try it, or they encountered heavy technical issues preventing it from happening. It's weird you don't consider these as reasonable possibilities but instead jump to Rockstar must've not let them. Enhancing GTA IV would've had very little impact on GTA Online, because people play GTA Online for the online multiplayer experience on current gen so I don't even get how you make the correlation between the two.
It's a forum for discussing and speculating.

Your two points were the exact two that I did consider and respond to.

GTA IV would have been at the top of the list for a 4k enhancement. The BC team would have made time.

RDR was enhanced so we know the engine in theory supported the method. Of course there could have been a technical issue. It's certainly a possibility.

It's fun to speculate.

Anyway, all of this is distracting from the main point. Of course Microsoft will ask before releasing an enhanced game.
 

litebrite

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
21,832
It's a forum for discussing and speculating.

Your two points were the exact two that I did consider and respond to.

GTA IV would have been at the top of the list for a 4k enhancement. The BC team would have made time.

RDR was enhanced so we know the engine in theory supported the method. Of course there could have been a technical issue. It's certainly a possibility.

It's fun to speculate.

Anyway, all of this is distracting from the main point. Of course Microsoft will ask before releasing an enhanced game.
We don't know what would've been on top of the list for a 4k enhancement. The BC team only had but so much time and resources, and prioritized getting as many games BC than 4k enhancing them. However I agree that GTA IV would've definitely been a huge 4k enhancement that I hope still happens on XSX because BC GTA IV is likely to be a locked 60fps on it. If we could also get it in 4k, along with machine learning HDR then the game will look and perform amazingly.

Now you got me hyped just thinking about it. LOL
 
Last edited:

krg

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,901
Does Gears of War still work on PC? I remember playing it but it used Game for Windows Live and we all know how that turned out...some games just never removed it and barely work, like Mortal Kombat Collection.
 

Patitoloco

Member
Oct 27, 2017
23,690
Does Gears of War still work on PC? I remember playing it but it used Game for Windows Live and we all know how that turned out...some games just never removed it and barely work, like Mortal Kombat Collection.
The original? It still has GFWL, maybe you can use some of the GFWL removers out there to make it work.

The Ultimate Edition remastered from years ago is on PC though, not reason why not to play that.
 

severianb

Banned
Nov 9, 2017
957
Could you imagine Ninja Gaiden 2 or Ninja Gaiden Black at 120fps? That would be Incredible.

I also wonder if there are X360 games that had 4k patches in the works but were dropped due to performance issues. Perhaps those could be reinstated for XSX.

This glorious future is why I'm waiting for TVs that support Variable Refresh Rate at 4K/120Hz. I suspect there are going to be a LOT more games that support 4K/120Hz than people suspect. I also think many of them will have a hard time keeping 120fps stable so VRR will help a lot.
 

Pancakes R Us

Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,344
Is there a thread on this board on how to buy on the Xbox marketplace from a different region? I can't remember if it was here or GAF that I saw it on, back in the day.
 

Pancakes R Us

Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,344
This will not work on Xbox 360 titles. You will have to use a VPN and its region bound to your account so its a giant mess. I would strongly advise not to do it.
You sure? I went via the Xbox account settings page on the web interface and changed my region to US. I should be able to buy some US credit and then redeem against US titles, right? Or is this blocked?
 

Gorion's Ward

Member
Apr 6, 2019
495
Israel <3
You sure? I went via the Xbox account settings page on the web interface and changed my region to US. I should be able to buy some US credit and then redeem against US titles, right? Or is this blocked?
You can do it with One titles but you have to have a valid payment method when it comes to 360. I have lots of BC games I want to buy (like Daytona right now) but just can't because they're not available in my country's 360 store. Sucks but that's how it is. You can only get them through an actual 360.
 

Pancakes R Us

Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,344
You can do it with One titles but you have to have a valid payment method when it comes to 360. I have lots of BC games I want to buy (like Daytona right now) but just can't because they're not available in my country's 360 store. Sucks but that's how it is. You can only get them through an actual 360.
Oh, how annoying. Do you know if it's possible to apply a Paypal account as a valid payment method, even if it's registered to another country? Also, when you say you can only get them through an actual 360, do you mean that you can only buy 360 games via a 360 and can't buy any online?
You can change your 360 but IIRC you can only do this once every 3 months and there are some other caveats involved. I did it because I actually moved country but I think it's a fudge on their backend and that's why it's not like the current store where you can switch to any region whenever you feel like it.

Check in your Microsoft account settings and look up the FAQ on there.
Thanks, I'll have a look. How sad.
 

Pancakes R Us

Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,344
Unless they've changed this, no, it'll reject PayPal as a method if the accounts don't match regions.
Alright, thanks! I was hoping to buy Xbox digital credit but looks like that's gonna be a no-go. I'm going to try to switch back to a UK location so I can buy some games.

EDIT: looks like I can't switch location until three months have passed. Oh well, stuck for now. I think I'll stick to home turf of the UK after three months as at least this way I'd be able to add codes etc. It seems like it's not possible for me to buy 360 games by adding credit online :(
 
Last edited:
OP
OP
MauroNL

MauroNL

What Are Ya' Buying?
Member
Oct 26, 2017
3,253
The Netherlands
The team also continues to listen to feedback from the community on additional titles you would like to see added to the compatibility program. Resurrecting titles from history often presents a complex mix of technical and licensing challenges, but the team is committed to doing everything we can to continue to preserve our collective gaming legacy.
news.xbox.com

Xbox Series X: The Most Powerful and Compatible Next-Gen Console with Thousands of Games at Launch - Xbox Wire

[Update 9/14/20: We’re happy to share that backward compatible titles will be coming to Xbox Series S as well as Xbox Series X. To deliver the highest quality backwards compatible experience consistent with the developer’s original intent, the Xbox Series S runs the Xbox One S version of...

I guess this is confirmation that new Original Xbox and Xbox 360 BC titles are not out of the question. :)
 
Feb 27, 2019
1,350
news.xbox.com

Xbox Series X: The Most Powerful and Compatible Next-Gen Console with Thousands of Games at Launch - Xbox Wire

[Update 9/14/20: We’re happy to share that backward compatible titles will be coming to Xbox Series S as well as Xbox Series X. To deliver the highest quality backwards compatible experience consistent with the developer’s original intent, the Xbox Series S runs the Xbox One S version of...

I guess this is confirmation that new Original Xbox and Xbox 360 BC titles are not out of the question. :)

Yes!
 

Pancakes R Us

Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,344
news.xbox.com

Xbox Series X: The Most Powerful and Compatible Next-Gen Console with Thousands of Games at Launch - Xbox Wire

[Update 9/14/20: We’re happy to share that backward compatible titles will be coming to Xbox Series S as well as Xbox Series X. To deliver the highest quality backwards compatible experience consistent with the developer’s original intent, the Xbox Series S runs the Xbox One S version of...

I guess this is confirmation that new Original Xbox and Xbox 360 BC titles are not out of the question. :)
Burnout 3 please.
 

TheChits

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,164
news.xbox.com

Xbox Series X: The Most Powerful and Compatible Next-Gen Console with Thousands of Games at Launch - Xbox Wire

[Update 9/14/20: We’re happy to share that backward compatible titles will be coming to Xbox Series S as well as Xbox Series X. To deliver the highest quality backwards compatible experience consistent with the developer’s original intent, the Xbox Series S runs the Xbox One S version of...

I guess this is confirmation that new Original Xbox and Xbox 360 BC titles are not out of the question. :)
This is such wonderful news. My random niche games still have a chance <3