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X-Men #7: "Show them who you really are." (SPOILERS)
- Thread starter MadLaughter
- Start date
Which, again, is not so much even the death and resurrection part, but the fact they MUST suffer, horribly, for it. As I said, there is no room for pacifists in their utopia. No room for those with low pain tolerance. No room for those that abhor violence. No such thing as a quick death.
Even those that don't "remember" the trauma, it is still done PUBLICLY, not privately. It's an event. There are those that SEE the beating and butchering of loved ones. Mental images of pain and death they live with of friends and family. Sorry, kids, grandma's missing half her face, but she'll be better soon!
This is a harrowing, grueling death ritual. It is VERY similar to old-timey religious crucibles that put their members through agonizing suffering to "purify" them of their sins and make them holy or spiritually awakened. "You want to be considered holy? You want to be accepted by the Church? Endure the lash. Shed your blood. Eat dust and drink poisons. Carry your cross. If your eye causes you to sin, gouge it out. Do you want forgiveness and to be a part of our parish again? Then suffer for your rebirth!"
"Purification through Pain" has long been a barbaric form of societal acceptance among religious extremism.
The parallels are obvious.
Same kind of set up that Hickman did with his secret wars. I can see charles going along with this, but Erik? This is a man who ran a mutant nation of his own at one point, who lost important people to Apokolips, it is very hard for me to honestly believe that a man who still has the backstory of being connected to
the holocaust would become okay with ritual death and resurrection like this in any way. Especially if Sinister is involved.
Which, again, is not so much even the death and resurrection part, but the fact they MUST suffer, horribly, for it. As I said, there is no room for pacifists in their utopia. No room for those with low pain tolerance. No room for those that abhor violence. No such thing as a quick death.
Even those that don't "remember" the trauma, it is still done PUBLICLY, not privately. It's an event. There are those that SEE the beating and butchering of loved ones. Mental images of pain and death they live with of friends and family. Sorry, kids, grandma's missing half her face, but she'll be better soon!
This is a harrowing, grueling death ritual. It is VERY similar to old-timey religious crucibles that put their members through agonizing suffering to "purify" them of their sins and make them holy or spiritually awakened. "You want to be considered holy? You want to be accepted by the Church? Endure the lash. Shed your blood. Eat dust and drink poisons. Carry your cross. If your eye causes you to sin, gouge it out. Do you want forgiveness and to be a part of our parish again? Then suffer for your rebirth!"
"Purification through Pain" has long been a barbaric form of societal acceptance among religious extremism.
The parallels are obvious.
No one is saying they must suffer? Like, that's literally only your interpretation, and only related to people who CHOOSE to take part in the Crucible, for a priority ressurrection to get their powers back. Is it supposed to feel a little cultish and off? Yeah, it is, but you're spinning it farther along than the narrative has ever touched it.
Again, you don't HAVE to go through the Crucible. The Crucible is your CHOICE, no one is being forced to do it.
It's not an "event", it's a purposefully tribalistic ritual and a rite of passage. Yes, it ends in death, but to mutants death is now meaningless. That's the point.
Pain is never the point of the Crucible, displaying the will and earning a priority resurrection and power restoration is the point.
In the end, it's entirely up to interpretation. I, for one, believe that Hickman has explicitly been asking us to accept that our "human" morals don't apply to the new mutantkind. They're beyond them, they're their own society. That feels off to us, and is supposed feel off. But that doesn't mean it's supposed to say "the X-Men are bad guys now".
I went back to Issue #6 after reading the first 4 or 5 pages of this issue to see if I somehow missed an issue. Then I realized nope, Hickman was just diving in to the whole Crucible with no back story.
For sure my favorite issue of the series thus far, and that is a pretty big statement as overall this series has been pretty damn on point.
For sure my favorite issue of the series thus far, and that is a pretty big statement as overall this series has been pretty damn on point.
I think that's the author's intent. The slippery-slope is so damn slippery because, as "new" as the mutant nation is, their actions have a firm foot in real-life history. HORRIBLE history.
That's part of the "Cult" aspect. Many people weren't "forced" to undergo "purity through pain" religious torture, but when your options were to be excommunicated from the church (some considered that a fate worse than death), separated from your friends and family for the rest of your life, or endure the pain and suffering and be welcomed back into the community, many chose the pain - not because it was good for them but because it was the only path to reconciliation the church provided.
It's a tribalistic ritual event. It's a public display of murder and surrogate suicide. The "death" may be meaningless, but the ritual goes further and demands that we accept that the KILLING and the DYING are meaningless as well. After all, they won't remember it, right? That is something our heroes clearly are having trouble accepting (as should the reader).
... Through pain. There are thousands of other methods they could use to "earn" it. Just like many foreign immigrants have methods of earning citizenship in a country - by displaying years of service to that country, providing a necessary service like health care or construction, or proving mastery of that nation's history, culture, language, or customs through high-quality-candidate assessment tests.
The fact that they determined "display the will for priority resurrection" MUST be to physically fight to the death for it is, again, a barbaric extension of the beliefs that Apocalypse always espoused... and which the X-men once fought him for.
That is a very regressive, narrow determination of "displaying the will" to have your powers back.
The X-men themselves feel that this is "off". And I know enough of Hickman's writing to know he's playing a long game. The way the art is rendered, the way the story is paced, the way it intercuts with examples mimicking real-life cult indoctrination pulled from real-life historical examples... it's deliberate.
The beat of the story has been to accept that the "humanity" in them has held them back, made them weak. That human notions of peaceful coexistence aren't possible, that mutants are NOT an offshoot of humanity.
But that's precisely what I love about Hickman's story... knowing it IS going to crash and burn. And they'll ask, why? Everything was perfect! We had everything! We had peace! Power! We conquered death itself! We transcended humanity into godhood!
... And I'll happily predict it'll be because of someone making a very "human" action. (I'll have to see if it's who I suspect...)
The whole run has been like that. Every issue introduces an event and then moves on to the next. We haven't seen a conclusion to the Children of the Vault plotline yet, either.
It's intriguing to say the least.
Is this new run a good jumping in point? I love the X-Men as characters but only really know them from the movies. Kind of tempted to check this new stuff out though, so long as I'm not overwhelmed by all the pre-established lore
This storyline sounds genuinely compelling. It's been a very, very long time since I've read X-Men, but I may have to start reading this run
Yeah, everything about this is something you'd see a C-tier villain cult doing. Having the heroes do it instead is interesting.
I haven't read the run yet but you couldn't do anything described in the OP if you had like, even a shred of ethics.
The Crucible may have been Apocalypse's idea originally, but the rest of the Quiet Council gave their blessing on it. It is the entire Council stating that, if you have the will, you have a home. They are starting this thing from scratch, so they are going for big statements while they figure out just how the hell they are going to keep it going long-term.
I'm thinking it will be left to Nightcrawler, Storm, Apocalypse, and whoever else helps create their "religion" to fill out the societal framework, because a religion will really codify what it means to be "mutant". As it stands right now, there are extremely few actual laws.
EDIT: also it could be argued that The Crucible violates one of Krakoa's few laws: no killing a human. So they are already twisting and side-stepping what few boundaries they have set.
I'm thinking it will be left to Nightcrawler, Storm, Apocalypse, and whoever else helps create their "religion" to fill out the societal framework, because a religion will really codify what it means to be "mutant". As it stands right now, there are extremely few actual laws.
EDIT: also it could be argued that The Crucible violates one of Krakoa's few laws: no killing a human. So they are already twisting and side-stepping what few boundaries they have set.
I was never a huge X-Men fan and I am now completely obsessed with this series. Cannot recommend it enough, all the praise is warranted.
Of course Hickman is playing the long game. But I refuse to apply a black and white filter to this. That would be lazy on Hickman's terms.
Apologies for not addressing everything, but writing essays is a bit exhausting right now. You do have a point with the parallels, but I feel like that's just too easy, and too much of a low hanging fruit.
I feel like the Crucible isn't even supposed to be about "killing", and more about ascending. Yeah, mincing words, but in a society where death is meaningless and the "victim" is set to return to begin with, what is murder? What is killing? It's a wholly new level of morals and the "let's turn morals on their head" is a very common trope in Utopian/Dystopian writings.
I feel that that's also something the suicide dialogue between Colossus and Domino is alluding to. Suicide you can wake up from as salvation from your scars. It's twisted and fucked up, but that's their world now. Death means nothing.
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She's currently dead
As in it actually might not be back for a long time actually dead
I'm fucking pissed
As in it actually might not be back for a long time actually dead
I'm fucking pissed
Apoc is all about "survival of the fittest".
Remember this lovely exchange.
So, does this mean that the Chimeras we saw in HoX/PoX are actually just reincarnated X-Men? Meaning the priest is actually Kurt Wagner but with a triple power-set?
I genuinely love the angle of what it means for the X-Men to actually work with, and get along with Apocalypse. It's been the most interesting he has been in ages, and I love the certain vibe of twisted regality they're giving him.
No, they're engineered, and not resurrected old characters. Pretty sure PoX spells that out. The discussion Scott and Kurt are having alludes to the Chimera, as does the white tower business, but it's just a hint to the possibilities of mixed and matched powersets.
No, they're engineered, and not resurrected old characters. Pretty sure PoX spells that out. The discussion Scott and Kurt are having alludes to the Chimera, as does the white tower business, but it's just a hint to the possibilities of mixed and matched powersets.
I love this storyline, because there's just so much going on under the surface, like the scene above.As this is happening, we witness a former(?) villain named Exodus, telling the tale of the 'pretender', Scarlet Witch, and how she ripped the gifts from mutant kind. He's preaching this parable to a group of mutant children around a campfire. It's -very- culty.
Yes, it's cult-like and deeply unsettling. But it also is an interesting example of radicalizing kids using what is both the truth of events but not the CONTEXT of those same events.
The infamous M-Day event that Scarlet Witch caused was at a point where the "pretender" believed herself to be BE a Mutant, acting what she felt was in the best interest of her kind. Not just a Mutant, but also the daughter of council leader Magneto, a former freedom fighter for mutantkind in Magneto's own Brotherhood of Mutants. And it ignores the preceding event, House of M, where she created a mutant-utopia reality, with mutants ruling the world over humanity... and that it was the mutant Wolverine who rejected this new world and brought it crashing down.
-A- has been an absolute highlight during this run. Wolverine has been handled exceptionally well, too, in my opinion. Wolverine #1 was insanely good.
Yeah I am all in on this X-men run, haven't been this invested in comics since......Secret Wars/Time Runs Out. Hickman is too good.
Its ridiculous how many story seeds have been planted.
The looming phalanx with Doug and Warlock. Remember Doug has already infected Krakoa with the virus, it was a blink and you miss it moment in HoX/PoX.
Sinister being Sinister, he betrayed them once already in another timeline. He also gave hints of a mutant who may not actually be a mutant.
Moira, Mystique, Destiny, and the danger of pre cogs who could bring the house of cards crashing down.
The various villains on the island who could fuck things up, like what the hell is Selene currently doing, she is beyond dangerous.
The original 4 Horsemen of Apocalypse.
Beast fucking around with things he shouldn't like usual and inadvertently creating a Bio Sentinel(Nimrod)
Children of the Vault returning.
So much more shit.
Its ridiculous how many story seeds have been planted.
The looming phalanx with Doug and Warlock. Remember Doug has already infected Krakoa with the virus, it was a blink and you miss it moment in HoX/PoX.
Sinister being Sinister, he betrayed them once already in another timeline. He also gave hints of a mutant who may not actually be a mutant.
Moira, Mystique, Destiny, and the danger of pre cogs who could bring the house of cards crashing down.
The various villains on the island who could fuck things up, like what the hell is Selene currently doing, she is beyond dangerous.
The original 4 Horsemen of Apocalypse.
Beast fucking around with things he shouldn't like usual and inadvertently creating a Bio Sentinel(Nimrod)
Children of the Vault returning.
So much more shit.
Since they're busy resurrecting dead mutants/giving mutants their powers back and all, can they bring back Dust's screen time? :(
She looks just like Molly sans the forehead thing. Weird. Well, happy to be wrong if so.
She looks just like Molly sans the forehead thing. Weird. Well, happy to be wrong if so.
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Because Xavier is preserving minds and consciousness with Cerebro. Clones, presumably, even with the same memories, don't have the same consciousness.
It's why Joseph and Magneto are two different people. It's why the Yelena Boliva clones in the second most recent Black Widow run weren't Yelena sans one, even though they all had the implanted memories. Only one had the full suite of memories and consciousness, hence her revival.
They're resurrected into clone bodies, but they're not clones. As a matter of fact, most of the death/rebirths in comics, except for Superman, Bruce Banner, and Cyclops --the only three I can think of ATM beyond everyone who came back to life in Blackest Night -- are essentially in cloned bodies.
I'm sure it'll be more substantial than a parody character that retconned themselves into being a mutant in order to remain relevant in continuity.
I came across an article on CBR last week that I found rather interesting in regards to the Krakoan resurrection protocols and the question of whether or not those being brought back have a soul.
www.cbr.com
One Mutant Could Reveal the High Cost of the X-Men's Resurrection Protocols
The X-Men's resurrection protocols have no way of replicating a soul, but does that matter? One iconic X-Men run suggests it does.
www.cbr.com
That could very will simply be a limitation on how her powers work, and not the process in general. After all, she's not a world class telepath with experience jumping into the astral plane to commune with spirits.I came across an article on CBR last week that I found rather interesting in regards to the Krakoan resurrection protocols and the question of whether or not those being brought back have a soul.
One Mutant Could Reveal the High Cost of the X-Men's Resurrection Protocols
The X-Men's resurrection protocols have no way of replicating a soul, but does that matter? One iconic X-Men run suggests it does.
And this:I came across an article on CBR last week that I found rather interesting in regards to the Krakoan resurrection protocols and the question of whether or not those being brought back have a soul.
One Mutant Could Reveal the High Cost of the X-Men's Resurrection Protocols
The X-Men's resurrection protocols have no way of replicating a soul, but does that matter? One iconic X-Men run suggests it does.
Is how you know the author is just disregarding what's actually on the page to try to figure out some twist that isn't there.
Guido came back without emotions, meanwhile you can't go five pages in any of these books without someone who has already been brought back trying to figure out how they feel about the whole thing.
Hell, they do resurrection in cohorts now because one of their earliest revivals was becoming increasingly depressed about how the world seemed to move on without him while he was dead, until they brought someone back he knew and who died around the time he did.
A lack of emotional depth was a key marker to Guido's soulessness, and no one in these books is lacking emotional depth.
CBR's articles as of late, especially with the X-Men stuff, have all been like that. It's to the point where the site isn't even worth looking at anymore.
Not to mention all of their DBZ stuff that seems to touch on actual series information but is actually written about fan art and fan fiction.
I'm talking more about the metaphysical aspect. The process itself isn't really of much interest.
The point is that that article provides no evidence that there's anything wrong in regards to the metaphysical aspect. In fact, quite the opposite. It provides a metric to measure the absence of a soul and by that metric those who have come back on Krakoa all pass. There's the question of whether it's the old soul or a new one, but there is no question that they are ensouled.
Also, the aforementioned report:
No, the X-Men want Franklin on Krakoa immediately cause he's currently experiencing a loss of his powers and they don't want to lose such a powerful omega mutant. The F4 don't want him on Krakoa cause they feel he's too young to make that decision and they got into a fight with the X-Men over it.
Reed does Reed shit and masks Franklin's mutant gene so he can't use the Krakoan gates which angers Franklin. He then runs away(with Valeria tagging along) to go to Krakoa with Kate Pryde and her crew via boat but they all got kidnapped by Doom who says he can help recover Franklin's powers. That's the current situation.
When does the new Avengers event take place? Cause in that he's still with the FF and his powers are still going away.
Ah. Here was the preview incase anything can be discern from it.
Wake Up Tony, Here Are All Your Preview Pages From Marvel's Empyre #0, #1 and #2...
Empyre #0 is coming in two flavours, Avengers Empyre #0 with a touch of Al Ewing and Pepe Larraz and Fantastic Four Empyre #0, garnished with Dan Slott
www.bleedingcool.com
DC in a nutshell, I loved them so much for like 20 years and they've just wittled me down and witttled me down to where I can't even be bothered.
This X-Men stuff though, this is my jam.
Oh it's definitely a combustible situation, if one member of the 5 goes down or wants out for any reason the whole Crucible falls apart. It's all under the guise of what's best for Mutant kind and it is awesome to actually have almost everyone together and actually in it together. But yes, no doubt one of the main characters likely a former bad guy like Sinister, Apoc, or Magneto get tired of the situation at some point and take action to try to make it the way they want it to be.
As with all things, events happen concurrently until they resolve and cement their place within the timeline.Ah. Here was the preview incase anything can be discern from it.
Wake Up Tony, Here Are All Your Preview Pages From Marvel's Empyre #0, #1 and #2...
Empyre #0 is coming in two flavours, Avengers Empyre #0 with a touch of Al Ewing and Pepe Larraz and Fantastic Four Empyre #0, garnished with Dan Slottwww.bleedingcool.com
More than likely, Franklin's situation will be unresolved in this crossover and will carry on until it's resolved in the main FF book.
This is really fucked up.
A clone of you isn't you.
You're dead and another you took your place, that's it.
A clone of you isn't you.
You're dead and another you took your place, that's it.
It's their soul placed into a clone body.
It's the original them in a new body, which is something that's been done for years. hell, Xavier's second most recent body was literally another person's body he put his mind and soul into; Psylocke/Captain Britain's current body is the same.
They're not dead.
This is no different than Nightcrawler dying and the X-Men pulling him out of heaven with a brand new body when his original body is still in a grave somewhere. The only difference now is that they don't have to break into the afterlife to do it since that part is circumvented by psychics and alien technology.
That's the mystery though, you can argue that a cerebro backup of your mind isn't your immortal soul. I think Hickman is going there.