WSJ: Hiring Is Hard Enough. Now New Workers Are Vanishing Before They Even Start.

[shadowsdarknes]

does this even hurt employers? The gap left will just have to be filled in by some current employee doing overtime until the position is filled.

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For sure. Over worked employees get burnt out and then become disgruntled.

If a company fails to take care of its people, it's likely to face issues.

Also, if can be frustrating as an employee to spend time training someone new and trying to build rapport with them only for them to quit shortly afterward.

 

[show me your skeleton]

The most hilarious thing is that in the UK, basically every low-paid role is hired under what's called a 'zero hours contract'. Which is exactly what it sounds like: a worker (note 'worker', not 'employee' - an important legal distinction) is hired by a company to work zero hours for zero pay, and whenever they work on top of that is entirely at the discretion of the company. And yet these same companies, who have been crowing about the 'flexibility' these contracts offer people, are now grumbling about struggling to fill roles and being 'ghosted' by their employees workers.

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when this was implemented (or being pushed hard, i can't remember how it became a 'thing') my manager at the time said 'oh i think they're a great idea, means the employee can decide whether or not they want to work that week etc' as if people lived in some kind of utopia where nothing cost money. utter imbecile.

 

[bonch00ski]

love seeing the employees have so much of the power these days i hope it continues.

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It's definitely having an impact, we started offering sign on bonuses where i work and increased starting pay. Also for active employees we've bumped up their pay too it's a beautiful thing.

Companies taking in billions upon billions starting to realize they need to be competitive is a beautiful thing to see.

 

[Soundscream]

Karma is a bitch.

 

[RedMercury]

I'm concerned a bit that this will just lead more companies to not let someone know when they did not get a position and leave people hanging, for my part I know I've let a potential employer know hey, this job is not for me so they don't waste any more resources on me but I understand why people are frustrated with employers and would not do that. I've also found you run into some of the same people on the road there and the road back so I've always tried to be as professional as possible.

 

[subpar spatula]

Ghosting employers is fun. I kind of want to waste people's time with fake resumes and stuff. Gotta have something to do on the weekdays.

 

[Deleted member 93841]

Also, companies need to stop using external recruiters. External recruiters are cancer. The worst experiences I have is always with external recruiters. It's one thing that they ghost you, but external recruiters will often follow up with you months or years later because they have you in their database and want to put you forward for roles.

I bypass external recruiters every chance that I get.

 

[whytemyke]

They've done everything in their power to stop employees from gaining power, from union busting to supporting regressive legislation (stopping any changes to minimum wage) to reducing the hours of most of their staff so that they can get around the health care laws that were set up to take care of people. And now they want to complain about how employees aren't showing them proper respect? Fuck 'em. Let 'em riot.

Companies that value their employees aren't the ones out here selling a sob story about how they can't find people to help.

And also, let's not forget that a lot of these companies probably shouldn't be in business to begin with. If the only way to sustain a business model is through regressive employment practices designed to capitalize on society stepping on the boots of the poorest people out there, then fuck you, you're bad at business and shouldn't succeed. I can't tell you how many diners around me are ALWAYS complaining about staffing shortages. But the one awesome diner near me? Not a peep. And now that they have to account for their hiring practices, lo and behold the FREE FUCKIN MARKET is saying that maybe we don't need 3 McDonalds in any given 5 mile radius on a map.

 

[krazen]

I dunno, like others said this is literally what employers do: waste a bunch of peoples time with shitty communication to wait until the 'perfect' candidate rolls up to still go through a bunch more interviews and then give em an offer but still retain the right to fire em quickly during a probationary period and still pretty quickly in an at will employment world.

As an employee I gotta pound the pavement hard, hopefully get feedback (which I don't) and when it comes to weighing the good and the bad of a position the window is -tight- or else they move onto a new candidate thus making it even hard to leverage multiple offers or hold out for the job I want.

This is a "I learned it from watching you" moment and not mad at it particularly from industries that laid off millions with a Thanos snap in the beginning of the pandemic.

 

[DrWangerBanger]

I dunno, like others said this is literally what employers do: waste a bunch of peoples time with shitty communication to wait until the 'perfect' candidate rolls up to still go through a bunch more interviews and then give em an offer but still retain the right to fire em quickly during a probationary period and still pretty quickly in an at will employment world.

As an employee I gotta pound the pavement hard, hopefully get feedback (which I don't) and when it comes to weighing the good and the bad of a position the window is -tight- or else they move onto a new candidate thus making it even hard to leverage multiple offers or hold out for the job I want.

This is a "I learned it from watching you" moment and not mad at it particularly from industries that laid off millions with a Thanos snap in the beginning of the pandemic.

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Yeah this article is incredibly frustrating to read. Employers spent decades and decades wasting peoples time with overly long interview processes then never reaching out with a result or feedback and no one ever applied a term to that - it was just "the way it is." But now that employees have finally turned the tables for this fleeting period of history and these people are coming out of the woodwork complaining about ghosting. Shut the fuck up already and pay people more and treat them like human beings and maybe you'll actually get some people to work for you.

 

[Thordinson]

I'm concerned a bit that this will just lead more companies to not let someone know when they did not get a position and leave people hanging

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This is literally what a ton of companies do now. I never got a call back when they told me "We'll let you know by the end of the week". I've literally never had them call or email.

Hiring processes for minimum wage jobs are insane. I remember having three rounds of interviews at Target. Two at Best Buy (with the second person being a manager who informed me they were extremely sick after shaking my hand). And of course this is after the online application screening where an algorithm will decide if a human should even look at your application based on how heavily you agree a person who takes a pencil from work should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law.

Then drug tests and insane background checks. For $12 an hour!

I also remember my first job interview for McDonalds back in highschool. Dude asked me one question, which I answered horribly, and then I started work the next day. I was one of their best workers, 'cause it turns out 99% of dipshits can be taught how to flip burgers and we don't need to waste resources on goofy ass hiring processes for minimum wage jobs!

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This.

I had to jump through hoops to get the two jobs I'm leaving for a much better position next week. They were a local market and serving position. Several interviews to find out if I can lift and move boxes...

When I was a case manager, it was one interview before I got the job. A case manager working for those with severe mental illnesses was an easier hiring process than a position stocking at a market.

 

[Deleted member 18179]

I work for an all remote company with good pay. We've had >400 applicants for every role we've posted, it's actually a problem lol. It's easy to hire when you offer people what they want

 

[Tavernade]

For sure. Over worked employees get burnt out and then become disgruntled.

If a company fails to take care of its people, it's likely to face issues.

Also, if can be frustrating as an employee to spend time training someone new and trying to build rapport with them only for them to quit shortly afterward.

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I think about half my work's few new hires this year quit/stopped showing up immediately after their two days of training. Management went from desperate to get staffed up to preferring to just work with what we had outside a few cases where availability was too good to pass up.

 

[krazen]

Yeah this article is incredibly frustrating to read. Employers spent decades and decades wasting peoples time with overly long interview processes then never reaching out with a result or feedback and no one ever applied a term to that - it was just "the way it is." But now that employees have finally turned the tables for this fleeting period of history and these people are coming out of the woodwork complaining about ghosting. Shut the fuck up already and pay people more and treat them like human beings and maybe you'll actually get some people to work for you.

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Yup. And what gets me is the period of the 'offer' if we need to play this game at least say "Hey, this job is here if you want it, think about it for a week".

But its gonna be an HR person on the phone randomly (could be a day after your final interview or weeks) with pressure to accept on the spot or close to it. So why would a candidate not lie knowing it buys em a few weeks of paperwork while still weighing other options?

Like you said its frustrating because it also screams out "Why aren't you being dumb motherfuckers as usual and letting us take advantage like we've been doing☹️" Its insulting.

 

[RedMercury]

This is literally what a ton of companies do now. I never got a call back when they told me "We'll let you know by the end of the week". I've literally never had them call or email.

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Ya I would say most companies don't let you know though I feel like these days you are more apt to be kept in the loop than 20 years ago, I'm just saying like if there was a renaissance to be had here I think it would be more likely to have a greater net positive effect if it was one of all parties letting people know what is going on.

It could be the case however that because companies know workers may just stop responding at the drop of a hat, that they become super communicative to compensate to try to suss out where someone stands.

 

[MercuryLS]

this is the real reason why. employers can suck it.

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Yeah, they're not just doing it for the lulz

 

[Thordinson]

Ya I would say most companies don't let you know though I feel like these days you are more apt to be kept in the loop than 20 years ago, I'm just saying like if there was a renaissance to be had here I think it would be more likely to have a greater net positive effect if it was one of all parties letting people know what is going on.

It could be the case however that because companies know workers may just stop responding at the drop of a hat, that they become super communicative to compensate to try to suss out where someone stands.

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If you had companies letting folks know, you'd have much more folks willing to let companies know. Not only that, companies have to stop lying about what the job entails, benefits, pay, etc. Companies brought this on themselves.

 

[NearingZero]

If you had companies letting folks know, you'd have much more folks willing to let companies know. Not only that, companies have to stop lying about what the job entails, benefits, pay, etc. Companies brought this on themselves.

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The problem is no individual company can counteract it by being as communicative to prospective employees as they should be. Sure, they should change (if needed) for the sake of being better, but that won't impact them being ghosted anytime soon. Better jobs and better up-front incentives are the solution to that.

 

[Thordinson]

The problem is no individual company can counteract it by being as communicative to prospective employees as they should be. Sure, they should change (if needed) for the sake of being better, but that won't impact them being ghosted anytime soon. Better jobs and better up-front incentives are the solution to that.

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I agree.

Be honest about the benefits and such would be a big help too.

 

[Deleted member 93841]

This.

I had to jump through hoops to get the two jobs I'm leaving for a much better position next week. They were a local market and serving position. Several interviews to find out if I can lift and move boxes...

When I was a case manager, it was one interview before I got the job. A case manager working for those with severe mental illnesses was an easier hiring process than a position stocking at a market.

Click to shrink...

Sadly it's not just minimum wage jobs that have these ridiculous interview processes. There's been growing disgruntlement in the software industry in the last decade because people are sick of doing whiteboard challenges, hours-long coding projects or even trial days just to get turned down anyway.

When I was a fresh CompSci grad I had so much of my time wasted on nonsense like that. The job I eventually got required me to develop a rudimentary CRM system with documentation, and I had 24 hours to deliver it. And this was before I even got to the first interview. And then we're not even getting to those ridiculous coding challenges that have no relation to the day-to-day work I would be doing.

At one point I started getting picky. If a company told me I had to build a project or complete online coding challenges, I thanked them for their time and told them that I was no longer interested. But for juniors fresh out of college or people with limited options, they can't always afford to be picky. When my husband started looking for jobs abroad, one company expected him to devote a whole weekend to developing an app that mocked tracking rental scooters on google maps.

 

[tokkun]

If you had companies letting folks know, you'd have much more folks willing to let companies know.

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I sincerely doubt that. The main reason people ghost - whether we are talking about a job or a romantic relationship - is fear of conflict. I don't think getting more prompt rejection notices is going to change that.

 

[Thordinson]

I sincerely doubt that. The main reason people ghost - whether we are talking about a job or a romantic relationship - is fear of conflict. I don't think getting more prompt rejection notices is going to change that.

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I think it would. I've worked for a company that was very communicative during the hiring process and folks were always letting us know why they were leaving. Anecdotal, sure. But people differently are more willing to communicate when companies are.

Sadly it's not just minimum wage jobs that have these ridiculous interview processes. There's been growing disgruntlement in the software industry in the last decade because people are sick of doing whiteboard challenges, hours-long coding projects or even trial days just to get turned down anyway.

When I was a fresh CompSci grad I had so much of my time wasted on nonsense like that. The job I eventually got required me to develop a rudimentary CRM system with documentation, and I had 24 hours to deliver it. And this was before I even got to the first interview. And then we're not even getting to those ridiculous coding challenges that have no relation to the day-to-day work I would be doing.

At one point I started getting picky. If a company told me I had to build a project or complete online coding challenges, I thanked them for their time and told them that I was no longer interested. But for juniors fresh out of college or people with limited options, they can't always afford to be picky. When my husband started looking for jobs abroad, one company expected him to devote a whole weekend to developing an app that mocked tracking rental scooters on google maps.

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That sounds absolutely terrible. No wonder folks are ghosting. And most of those coding projects are unpaid, yeah?

 

[Deleted member 93841]

That sounds absolutely terrible. No wonder folks are ghosting. And most of those coding projects are unpaid, yeah?

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It might have started changing in recent years with some more progressive companies compensating people for them (or scrapping the idea entirely), but for the most part, that kind of thing is unpaid.

 

[Davey Cakes]

Should be a surprise to no one after many years of shitty hiring and labor practices by these companies. People are fed up not only with being exploited on the job, but with companies wasting their time during applications and interviews.

 

[MrChocolate]

In my many years looking up for jobs in US, it is the first time that in my particular field of work, companies are sponsoring working (H1B I believe?) visas for non-us based workers. Market must be really desperate if they are willing to do that.

 

[scitek]

It's definitely having an impact, we started offering sign on bonuses where i work and increased starting pay. Also for active employees we've bumped up their pay too it's a beautiful thing.

Companies taking in billions upon billions starting to realize they need to be competitive is a beautiful thing to see.

Click to shrink...

Yep, at the company I work for, if you recommend someone for a job, and that person ends up getting hired, you get a $1000 bonus.

 

[Deleted member 21469]

In my many years looking up for jobs in US, it is the first time that in my particular field of work, companies are sponsoring working (H1B I believe?) visas for non-us based workers. Market must be really desperate if they are willing to do that.

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The H1-B process sounds like hell for the worker, I'd never volunteer to interact with it

 

[tokkun]

I think it would. I've worked for a company that was very communicative during the hiring process and folks were always letting us know why they were leaving. Anecdotal, sure. But people differently are more willing to communicate when companies are.

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The article is about people who are ghosting after having received and accepted offers from companies. I think we can reasonably assume that in those specific cases the companies must have been communicating with the applicant, because they had to do so in order to extend the offer, provide details on starting, etc.

So your theory of it being based on the specific company's behavior doesn't seem that strong to me.

 

[HStallion]

What happened to "You should call them to show prerogative and that you actually want the job"? I was taught to not depend on them calling me.

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Those companies don't take your calls or do and blow smoke up your ass.

 

[Mesoian]

Yeah, no sympathy, I was ghosted by 6 companies earlier in the year.

Go with the better deal, full stop. You owe prospects nothing.

 

[Thordinson]

The article is about people who are ghosting after having received and accepted offers from companies. I think we can reasonably assume that in those specific cases the companies must have been communicating with the applicant, because they had to do so in order to extend the offer, provide details on starting, etc.

So your theory of it being based on the specific company's behavior doesn't seem that strong to me.

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I was speaking to a poster talking about companies not letting folks know during the hiring process. I'm not saying it is a specific companies behavior. I'm saying that if companies, in general, were more communicative you wouldn't have so many people ghosting.

As far as folks getting hired then leaving, companies need to stop lying about workplace conditions and pay/benefits if they don't want folks to leave. They can also offer more pay/better benefits as well.

 

[WonderingRogue]

It's also probably just people throwing their resumes around to a lot of places and holding out to the last minute for the better offer.

That offer co.es after the interview process from another offer and they ghost it for the better place.

 

[Thordinson]

It's also probably just people throwing their resumes around to a lot of places and holding out to the last minute for the better offer.

That offer co.es after the interview process from another offer and they ghost it for the better place.

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This too. Shotgunning resumes is the only way to get a job now anyway.

 

[Charizard]

I showed up to my new job and like it, but if they keep giving me part time hours when I was hired on as full-time I will absolutely continue looking and leave as soon as I find an actual full time job jesus christ.

 

[Apathy]

Fuck these companies. They ghost as well.

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First post nails it again. We've had situations of never hearing from a company we apply for. Fuck them

 

[ghostemoji]

We've been hit by this problem as well in our local office (engineering/consulting). We have only have budget to fill one (1) position and we've had three (3) people ghost us after signing an offer letter (salary job with good benefits), or tell us the day they negotiated their start date that they've accepted a job somewhere else instead. It's been frustrating because we kind of have to stop looking for someone to fill that role when a candidate accepts the offer, and then we have to start over once they ghost.

It's a real bummer because we'll move schedules around to have someone available for training, and then... nothing. It's been frustrating for a lot of people. We had another person leave the company from a field office about 10 hours away because we couldn't replace a person who left on their team fast enough. They were in a position where they were doing the job of two people for months as we went through the ghost/reneg train with 5-6 people, and we were constantly flying in people from other offices across the country to try and fill in for them when they couldn't keep up, he quit last week (who wouldn't?), and now it's worse than ever. We finally just hired a person to help him and now it's training a new person and trying to fill another position for that team. It's brutal out there.

We offer good pay and benefits, it's just a rough market. I wonder if that signed offer letter is a "pay me $10k more than this" card.

 

[MrChocolate]

The H1-B process sounds like hell for the worker, I'd never volunteer to interact with it

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It is? Damn 🥲 Oh well… my first choice it's actually Hong Kong, but so many jobs ask for Cantonese (or is it Mandarin, sorry I don't actually know) as a mandatory language so I'm fucked up either way :(

 

[Soda]

Honestly it's a great market for job seekers. I got a promotion in my company and negotiated the salary even higher than what they first offered me even without having an external offer.

I'm glad folks aren't settling.

 

[Deleted member 21469]

We've been hit by this problem as well in our local office (engineering/consulting). We have only have budget to fill one (1) position and we've had three (3) people ghost us after signing an offer letter (salary job with good benefits), or tell us the day they negotiated their start date that they've accepted a job somewhere else instead. It's been frustrating because we kind of have to stop looking for someone to fill that role when a candidate accepts the offer, and then we have to start over once they ghost.

It's a real bummer because we'll move schedules around to have someone available for training, and then... nothing. It's been frustrating for a lot of people. We had another person leave the company from a field office about 10 hours away because we couldn't replace a person who left on their team fast enough. They were in a position where they were doing the job of two people for months as we went through the ghost/reneg train with 5-6 people, and we were constantly flying in people from other offices across the country to try and fill in for them when they couldn't keep up, he quit last week (who wouldn't?), and now it's worse than ever. We finally just hired a person to help him and now it's training a new person and trying to fill another position for that team. It's brutal out there.

We offer good pay and benefits, it's just a rough market. I wonder if that signed offer letter is a "pay me $10k more than this" card.

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Now imagine how the other side who relies on a wage for food and shelter feels.

 

[Deleted member 21469]

It is? Damn 🥲 Oh well… my first choice it's actually Hong Kong, but so many jobs ask for Cantonese (or is it Mandarin, sorry I don't actually know) as a mandatory language so I'm fucked up either way :(

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I mean if you're fired you get a short period of time to find another job then out of the country you go.
Plus despite being dual intent (meaning it can turn into permanent residency) that requires the employer to willingly sponsor you for a green card and lose leverage.

 

[ghostemoji]

Now imagine how the other side who relies on a wage for food and shelter feels.

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I... am on that side? Not sure what point you're making here.

 

[lorddarkflare]

I am curious: how do you lie about benifits/pay?

My company just outlines all that out in the offer letter. I just assumed this was required by law.

 

[Deleted member 21469]

I... am on that side? Not sure what point you're making here.

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Point: companies can pound sand.

 

[Davey Cakes]

I showed up to my new job and like it, but if they keep giving me part time hours when I was hired on as full-time I will absolutely continue looking and leave as soon as I find an actual full time job jesus christ.

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This is why the antiwork movement exists. Companies either mislead or straight up lie about pay, hours, and benefits.

 

[btags]

Also, companies need to stop using external recruiters. External recruiters are cancer. The worst experiences I have is always with external recruiters. It's one thing that they ghost you, but external recruiters will often follow up with you months or years later because they have you in their database and want to put you forward for roles.

I bypass external recruiters every chance that I get.

Click to shrink...

I love how ridiculous external recruiters are on LinkedIn. I always just respond with where is the position, what company is the position with, and what is the expected salary range? It is amazing how many times they are like, "well we cannot give you that info unless you talk to us." If you are going to waste my time on a position that could potentially be lower paying than my current one, I am not wasting any time with you.

 

[ghostemoji]

Point: companies can pound sand.

Click to shrink...

Well reasoned.

 

[Lobster Roll]

Hiring is not hard at all. I roll my eyes when I hear LinkedIn commercials like, "having trouble finding good candidates?", like you assholes just aren't making your job attractive enough. It's about time these companies got a taste of their own medicine as well. They're allowed to ghost candidates and then they cry foul when it happens to them? Cry me a river.

 

[btags]

When the current employees get fed up with having to do 1,5 or 2 peoples' jobs for their normal pay and they start looking for new work, it definitely hurts the company.

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I am in this position now. I have been saying my team needs more people to do the work that we have and we haven't been able to hire anyone new for maybe half a year, while our work just continues to grow. I don't know if I will actually switch to a new job (I already have an interview elsewhere that hopefully goes well) but doing more work than is reasonable due to low staffing certainly has taken its toll at my company and has resulted in mass turnover.

I don't blame workers who do this kind of stuff though, in fact I encourage it. If employers think that they can treat their (potential) employees like shit, the opposite is equally valid.

 

[Deleted member 21469]

Well reasoned.

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My friend, they lie, mislead, overwork, fight against unionisation, ghost candidates... And we should feel bad for them when they get back 1% of the number of ghosting they do? Why exactly?

 

[Genesius]

I gave my last job a week notice and they were incredibly lucky to get it