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Kor of Memory

Avenger
Oct 27, 2017
1,669
Except here it took people 5+ years to get tired of it and it wasn't the help that brought wow down, it was the crappy dungeons and raids of Cats and Mist. Wow at its heights in Wrath helped you along while still telling an amazing story, having fantastic dungeons and raid content.
See, funny enough I burned out towards the end of Burning Crusade (before the Kil'jaeden thingy) because my wife and I were playing everyday. Tuesday and Wednesday was the Vashj raid, Thursday Friday and Saturday was the Kael'Thas raid, Sunday and Monday was either working towards Illidan or killing the Giant Ogre and/or Pitlord guy. On top of doing dailies.

My wife didn't have a job at the time and spent all day farming for potions for herself, myself, and the guild main tank. We had responsibilities that constantly kept us engaged, but not in a fun way anymore.

Funny enough, when I look back on WoW and think of the good times, it's almost never to do with Raiding. I remember getting my Tier 0 helm from Scholo after the 27th run. I remember my very first Epic I ever got [Headmaster's Charge]. I remember all the random ganking in Hillsbrad. I remember playing my first Alterac Valley Battleground for over 6 hours before I absolutely had to go to sleep.

I DO remember exploring Outland, but that's about where my good memories stop.
 

Deleted member 31817

Nov 7, 2017
30,876
See, funny enough I burned out towards the end of Burning Crusade (before the Kil'jaeden thingy) because my wife and I were playing everyday. Tuesday and Wednesday was the Vashj raid, Thursday Friday and Saturday was the Kael'Thas raid, Sunday and Monday was either working towards Illidan or killing the Giant Ogre and/or Pitlord guy. On top of doing dailies.

My wife didn't have a job at the time and spent all day farming for potions for herself, myself, and the guild main tank. We had responsibilities that constantly kept us engaged, but not in a fun way anymore.

Funny enough, when I look back on WoW and think of the good times, it's almost never to do with Raiding. I remember getting my Tier 0 helm from Scholo after the 27th run. I remember my very first Epic I ever got [Headmaster's Charge]. I remember all the random ganking in Hillsbrad. I remember playing my first Alterac Valley Battleground for over 6 hours before I absolutely had to go to sleep.

I DO remember exploring Outland, but that's about where my good memories stop.
Yeah my best times were just random fuckery in the world, bgs, world pvp, questing and dungeons
 

thonerayman

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,801
See, funny enough I burned out towards the end of Burning Crusade (before the Kil'jaeden thingy) because my wife and I were playing everyday. Tuesday and Wednesday was the Vashj raid, Thursday Friday and Saturday was the Kael'Thas raid, Sunday and Monday was either working towards Illidan or killing the Giant Ogre and/or Pitlord guy. On top of doing dailies.

My wife didn't have a job at the time and spent all day farming for potions for herself, myself, and the guild main tank. We had responsibilities that constantly kept us engaged, but not in a fun way anymore.

Funny enough, when I look back on WoW and think of the good times, it's almost never to do with Raiding. I remember getting my Tier 0 helm from Scholo after the 27th run. I remember my very first Epic I ever got [Headmaster's Charge]. I remember all the random ganking in Hillsbrad. I remember playing my first Alterac Valley Battleground for over 6 hours before I absolutely had to go to sleep.

I DO remember exploring Outland, but that's about where my good memories stop.

Yeah, wows endgame isn't for everyone. It's not for me anymore. During tbc and wrath I was raiding 5 days a week and on my days off I was raid leading for other guilds. Teaching them the ropes because as guilds will be guilds will break up and when they did we would know who could raid. Now don't get me wrong, I never did anything to help break them up, but when they did I knew who was good to add to the team.
 

Kor of Memory

Avenger
Oct 27, 2017
1,669
Yeah, wows endgame isn't for everyone. It's not for me anymore. During tbc and wrath I was raiding 5 days a week and on my days off I was raid leading for other guilds. Teaching them the ropes because as guilds will be guilds will break up and when they did we would know who could raid. Now don't get me wrong, I never did anything to help break them up, but when they did I knew who was good to add to the team.

But I think that further illustrates my point.

WoW classic was about 80% Leveling experience. 10% Dungeons. 10% raiding. (By the end anyway. If you're talking about release, then raiding is like maybe 5%). But by the time Burning Crusade came out, you had Raids all over.

  • Karazan
  • Zul'Aman
  • Magtheredon
  • Grull
  • Vashj
  • Kael
  • Illidan
  • Hyjal
  • Sunwell
And while I admit I left before Wrath came out, I believe this trend continued. Where even though the games would come out with new Zones, those zones were just to chew through the new 5-10 levels so you could start working on them raids.

Compared to at the end:
  • Onyxia
  • Molten Core
  • Blackwing
  • Zul'Gurub
  • Ahn'Qiraj Ruins
  • Ahn'Qiraj Temple
  • Naxx
 

thonerayman

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,801
But I think that further illustrates my point.

WoW classic was about 80% Leveling experience. 10% Dungeons. 10% raiding. (By the end anyway. If you're talking about release, then raiding is like maybe 5%). But by the time Burning Crusade came out, you had Raids all over. Kara, Zul'Aman, Magtheron, Grull, Vashj, Kael, Illidan, Hyjal, Sunwell. And while I admit I left before Wrath came out, I believe this trend continued. Where even though the games would come out with new Zones, those zones were just to chew through the new 5-10 levels so you could start working on them raids.

There were a lot of raids in Vanilla too though. Everyone remembers the big 40s. Naxx MC BWL AQ but there were 10an dungeons that were basically mini raids like brd, strat and others. Maybe it's because of who I played with but we all wanted to get through the leveling to the big stuff. Even back then we saw leveling as the roadblock to the real game. I remember talking to people in my morning classes that "WoW really starts at 60"
 

Kor of Memory

Avenger
Oct 27, 2017
1,669
There were a lot of raids in Vanilla too though. Everyone remembers the big 40s. Naxx MC BWL AQ but there were 10an dungeons that were basically mini raids like brd, strat and others. Maybe it's because of who I played with but we all wanted to get through the leveling to the big stuff. Even back then we saw leveling as the roadblock to the real game. I remember talking to people in my morning classes that "WoW really starts at 60"

Hmm... I both agree and disagree with you.

Like, I remember having larger groups for UBRS. I can't remember if it was 10 or 15. And I remember doing 10 man groups for Stratholme. But I feel like those never required the same kind of mindset that actual raiding did. Like Zul'Gurub or the Ahn'Qiraj ruins required way more teamwork and concentration that something like UBRS ever did.
 

thonerayman

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,801
Hmm... I both agree and disagree with you.

Like, I remember having larger groups for UBRS. I can't remember if it was 10 or 15. And I remember doing 10 man groups for Stratholme. But I feel like those never required the same kind of mindset that actual raiding did. Like Zul'Gurub or the Ahn'Qiraj ruins required way more teamwork and concentration that something like UBRS ever did.

I never meant to imply they were as hard as the big raids. But they were super fun and still had a fair amount of challenge to them especially in certain spots.
 

Artdayne

Banned
Nov 7, 2017
5,015
It's not that classic WoW was especially good, it's that the modern WoW is especially bad.

Instead of cultivating what they had they just made it barren.

Eh, nah, Classic WoW is indeed incredibly good. There's a reason it blew the doors of the MMO genre.

WoW classic just does so many things right in terms of feedback loop, quest design promoting exploration, the feeling that every upgrade matters, bag space is an important resource, money is an important resource, classes all have a very unique flavor to them which makes them stand out from the others.
 

CountAntonio

Member
Oct 25, 2017
21,730
So did people really not want any of the new graphic changes? Not even those cool character models?

I could see the appeal of everything else but I would have wanted the new graphics with the classic gameplay.
 

Kor of Memory

Avenger
Oct 27, 2017
1,669
Ehh... kinda, but I spend so much time zoomed out (with my max camera distance set the highest) that my character takes up maybe 6% of my screen space. So it's not really crucial.
 
Oct 25, 2017
16,290
Cincinnati
Well I'm bothered by it, obviously. I have zero interest in regular WOW and would only be in it for Classic. Surely I'm not alone.

Sorry, I'm not saying it's not a problem at all, I'm sure there is a group of people that would play if it didn't have the fee, however going by the queue of thousands of people on every server at the moment it's just not something that is going to happen, unfortunately.
 
OP
OP
grmlin

grmlin

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,294
Germany
I subscribed for classic. I don't care for normal wow. I would actually love to pay upfront for games again or even subscribe for a service, if that means that games will be more like this one, again.
 

Dysun

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,975
Miami
WoW classic just reminds me that power creep ruins everything. No matter if they take away flying, the sense of exploration, community and the journey is not there.
 

Kyougar

Cute Animal Whisperer
Member
Nov 3, 2017
9,360
My issue with Classic being "harder" is that its difficult in all the wrong ways.

Enemies in the world don't have unique mechanics to fight you, they just hit you harder and require the player to eat/drink between quest mobs.

Even in raids, the bosses are disgustingly simple in terms of mechanics. The difficulty comes from finding/coordinating a raid group and getting gear with the correct resistances for a fight/instance.

That's not fun to me.

And 50 different mob types with a different strategy to kill is better? Those are TRASH MOBS! I don't want to memorize a stupid combo or timetable to fight trash mobs and then have to do another thing for another trash mob. The strategy began in the dungeons and massively in the raids.
 

CHC

Member
Oct 27, 2017
10,247
This is a key component that should be examined for future games. Part of what made Wow so amazing was that it forced you to work together and communicate. It made us use our brain nuggets on quests, instead of following way points and being handheld, which also meant we were more invested in the world. We shared information and worked together, built real life friendships and communities in our interactions. I feel like devs have started to forget about what made this game so special. I hope revisiting this will inspire a deeper look into what aspects should be considered for future games. WOW classic may be dated in many respects, but the things they got right made it one of the best games ever created. There is a reason so many wanted classic WOW to happen and whether we knew it or not, I don't think it wasn't just for nostalgia. This is a game that challenges it's players to actually be a part of the world they are playing in. To explore and experiment. Discover. So many magical things were born out of this philosophy.

So much of the design is just built around the idea that it is easier to group than it is to solo. Like, other players are right in front of you, you both are doing the same thing, and you are both worse off competing for whatever you're trying to get. It also squared well with the more heterogeneous classes - not everyone was good at everything, so you really felt the benefits of grouping more than it just being "more damage!"

I fully understand that a lot of the synergy between the community aspects and the class / world design were probably a happy accident, but it was a much more complete package than it is now in terms of engagement.

At the end of the day, players will always, always, always take the path of least resistance, and it just so happened in WoW that the path of least resistance was building a network of people that made reaching your in-game goals that much easier and more pleasant. Again, some of that ease of interaction was by design while other parts of it were surely happenstance, but it worked out.

For many years in retail WoW it's been much, much easier to do everything either alone or in randomly sorted, disposable groups, so social interaction with strangers is just gone from the game entirely now.
 
Feb 16, 2018
2,686
ironic thing is WoW is indirectly responsible for lots of the changes

i don't blame WoW. i think things would have gone in a similar direction anyways. but i liked online games a lot more before WoW's influence peaked rather than after WoW

i don't really mind when MMO devs try a bunch of different things, but trying to shove progression and leveling and quests and progression into non-MMO games did ruin a lot of what i liked about online play

i liked when the only thing you cared about was trying to win a match where everyone was on an even footing instead of caring about character/account progress and unlocking stuff
 

Acidote

Member
Oct 26, 2017
4,975
I still think a huge amount of people playing vanilla right right will stop doing so soon.

But the game is better and more enjoyable than I expected it to be. Specially if you have enough people to play with. And it certainly feels more rewarding in certain moments.
 

Slayven

Never read a comic in his life
Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
93,184
Handholding or game design learned to be more respectiful of player's time.

How many hours was wasted looking for that last mob to kill or worse it was a special one on a spawn timer and walked a path that was half a zone long?
 

Lothars

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
9,765
15 years ago developers wanted to make a good game first and foremost and be successful on that merit.

Today developers/publishers want to sell you additional shit and couldn't give a fuck about the actual quality of the game (obviously not everyone but certainly Activision Blizzard and many more like EA).

And the worst about all of that: people gobble that trash up nowadays.
This is a bad post because not only is it so far off the mark, it's not even close to accurate.
 

jotun?

Member
Oct 28, 2017
4,503
Yeah, the original WoW's overall design goal was basically, "Like Everquest, but for everyone"
 

Doc Kelso

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,165
NYC
So much of the design is just built around the idea that it is easier to group than it is to solo. Like, other players are right in front of you, you both are doing the same thing, and you are both worse off competing for whatever you're trying to get. It also squared well with the more heterogeneous classes - not everyone was good at everything, so you really felt the benefits of grouping more than it just being "more damage!"

I fully understand that a lot of the synergy between the community aspects and the class / world design were probably a happy accident, but it was a much more complete package than it is now in terms of engagement.

At the end of the day, players will always, always, always take the path of least resistance, and it just so happened in WoW that the path of least resistance was building a network of people that made reaching your in-game goals that much easier and more pleasant. Again, some of that ease of interaction was by design while other parts of it were surely happenstance, but it worked out.

For many years in retail WoW it's been much, much easier to do everything either alone or in randomly sorted, disposable groups, so social interaction with strangers is just gone from the game entirely now.
The game makes it more convenient to be friendly, or at the very least affable, by encouraging you to group up instead of fighting over spawns. Which I think is a pretty big part of the sense of community that forms around these older MMO designs.

It's not really for fear of being reported, it's just that everyone's life is easier if you're not a massive jackass and make those 5-minute friendships that spawn from grouping up for a single quest that has a limited number of mobs. Can you do it solo? Sure! But it's going to be easier to get your 30 kills if you group up with some other people, and there's no reason to keep you in the group of you're being nasty. Since the quest is simple, no single person's contribution is worth more than another person.

It's a bit different in dungeons, but they keep the same idea that it's just convenient to be nice.
 

Myself

Member
Nov 4, 2017
1,282
New WoW showed me how much things haven't changed. I was a massive WoW player back in the day (The time of level 60 cap) but after thousands of hours I came out of my haze and thought "this is just the same old shit again and again and again". About 6 months I went back to take a look and got to about level 20 ish and thought "this is the same old shit again and again and again" and uninstalled. It hasn't progressed much from "Kill X of Y". Sure they've put more stuff around it but the core game and mechanics (Like quests) are just the same old stuff.
 

Maccix

Member
Jan 10, 2018
1,251
Yeah classic WoW is more of a logistical challenge than a mechanical one. Anyone who says otherwise is delusional. It's a very different type of challenge and def not for everyone.

This is true,but this logistical challange was what created a sense of comunity. This is what made friendships that went far and above the game itself. Two guildmates met each through wow and later on married in real life. It was the struggle at times that created bonds between all of our pvp group for years to come. Maybe that sounds dumb, but that is what the game stood for at least for me.
 

blacklotus

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
2,028
The convenience features added over time really did make the game less fun. Your loop became just sit in main city and queue for dungeon, spam AOE, repeat instead of actually going out into the world, organizing the run, and all sorts of things. Like it was tough and you had a lot of bad experiences but at least there was some sort of attachment and work to put in. And through that a community was built.

Obviously. Made the world feel alive. Made you "hate" the other faction. Made servers have known people/gankers etc. It was fucking AWESOME.

Remember going in chat in Ashenvale just typing "PEOPLE; WE NEED TO ATTACK ASTRANAAR AND KILL THOSE FILTHY ALLIANCE". 5 minutes later there i was in a 40 man raid with people from different levels just traversing the map in direction of Astranaar only to wipe few seconds after reaching the city.

But during the ride, there was always 1 or 2 questing alliance guys that were basically swallowed by a sea of mad cows, crazy skeletons and smelly trolls. It was hilarious.

Some years ago i bought the game (was on a crazy sale on the store i work - Cataclysm) and i played it till end game (which was fast as fuck compared to Vanilla) and i just played the game solo questing. The first alliance i saw in the world was at level 47... game world was dead. (and yes, i obviously went and killed him.)

That year and half i played Wow is one of my fondest gaming memories. It was really fun.
 

Finaj

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,362
SWG now that was a game ahead of it's time and if it released today would be leaps abound other games.

Funny enough, J. Allen Brack (President of Blizzard/former producer on WoW) was actually a producer on Star Wars Galaxies. He was against the New Game Enhancements (NGE) that simplified the game.
 

Hucast

alt account
Banned
Mar 25, 2019
3,598
Getting stuck in games for having hard time to figure out something is one of those things that make games more memorable after you figure them out but sadly everyone complains about that sorta stuff nowadays. Absolutely awful

However Souls games and breath of the wild and now WOW classic being so popular does indicate that developers shouldnt be listening to the people that dont know what's the best for them. It is easy to complain
 

Grahf

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,664
I'm at my third character leveled to 10 between release and beta and nope, each time I reach that point it just stops being fun.
I played extensively back in Vanilla and I don't think I'm in the mood for repeating all those tedious grinds yet again.
WoW classic is still very good, I like the challenge and the fact that even 2 simple mobs can still wreck me if I don't play correctly. But I cant ignore all the QoL added, and now that I know of them, playing classic is just that : tedious.

I'll probably play some few more hours every now and then but really, all that downtime was tolerable at the time because no other choice, but I can't chose to spend so much time travelling now. A big part of my experience was running or taking a fly between things to actually do. Like 40% of playtime it's insane.
 

CountAntonio

Member
Oct 25, 2017
21,730
SWG now that was a game ahead of it's time and if it released today would be leaps abound other games.
The amount of stuff possible in the game was amazing. You could legit just be a politician or an architect if you wanted. It was my first MMO and when all my friends went to WoW I was like where is the player housing? Why do these professions suck? I was just so underwhelmed I never got far.
 

Slayven

Never read a comic in his life
Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
93,184
The amount of stuff possible in the game was amazing. You could legit just be a politician or an architect if you wanted. It was my first MMO and when all my friends went to WoW I was like where is the player housing? Why do these professions suck? I was just so underwhelmed I never got far.
I miss my little wind farm on Naboo.
 
Oct 26, 2017
7,968
South Carolina
Yeah, wows endgame isn't for everyone. It's not for me anymore. During tbc and wrath I was raiding 5 days a week and on my days off I was raid leading for other guilds. Teaching them the ropes because as guilds will be guilds will break up and when they did we would know who could raid. Now don't get me wrong, I never did anything to help break them up, but when they did I knew who was good to add to the team.

Yup. Bleeding edge guilds told guys like me that and I found it amusing.

Then I got there. Then others did. Dogs dont know what to do with a caught car and that 'ran out of new stuff to do' thing that only affected that infamous .001%...now effects a majority and has since Wrath.

Perspective is...tricky to get perspective on, and easy to lose.
 

Liyfda

Member
Oct 27, 2017
349
It's wild, a game that actually feels like there is community in the game itself. It feels good when you get a random buff from someone or someone invites you into a party or folks just help out even if they aren't in your party.
 

LaneDS

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,605
Weird question stemming from the OP- if you had the original Collector's Edition, do you get the pets (Diablo/Zergling/Panda) in Classic?
 

Scuffed

Member
Oct 28, 2017
10,901
I have been having a great time. It's so absorbing compared to retail. I thought it would be fun but I started to have my doubts after returning to retail recently. I was already bored of 8.2 and it killed my hype for classic but holy shit that WoW is crack feeling is back. Levelling is just so great in Classic.
 

Deleted member 18400

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
4,585
Watching Classic WoW reminds me that the Dungeon Finder was both the greatest and worst thing to ever happen to WoW at the same time haha.
 

Thorn

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
24,446
I really don't get the appeal of Classic WoW.

Its boring quests that are all "Collect 10 Bear Asses."

Maybe because I didn't have a fun time back in the day with Vanilla? I dunno.
 

Var

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
1,310
Funny thing is WoW was considered "babies first MMORPG" when it came out. Every arguement of dumbing down and handholding was levled at it. Gaming is a flat circle.

Yeah, that is definitely what I remember from playing EQ at the time.

"An MMO you can play without a group? Whats the point?"
 

Grahf

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,664
Weird question stemming from the OP- if you had the original Collector's Edition, do you get the pets (Diablo/Zergling/Panda) in Classic?

You do !
Problem is you're limited to one per toon (Mini Diablo, Panda or Zergling), they're not account-bound and they obviously occupy a bag slot.
Still was happy it was still there, especially since I encountered noone else with it so far : o
 
OP
OP
grmlin

grmlin

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,294
Germany
I really don't get the appeal of Classic WoW.

Its boring quests that are all "Collect 10 Bear Asses."

Maybe because I didn't have a fun time back in the day with Vanilla? I dunno.
I can't explain why, but it just works for me. It's a lot of running around, backtracking and doing nothing, but the next level is always around the corner...

I had a friend who played Star Wars Galaxy, holy shit I didn't understand how this was even possible back then lol. Way too complicated for me though, and I think I didn't even have an internet connection at home at the time
 

Tatsu91

Banned
Apr 7, 2019
3,147
Handholding or game design learned to be more respectiful of player's time.

How many hours was wasted looking for that last mob to kill or worse it was a special one on a spawn timer and walked a path that was half a zone long?
Pretty much I think quest markers are much better as i loathe wasting my time as its just not fun its tedium. Though some classic aspects do sound appealing to me but i rarely play on pc