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Oct 26, 2017
20,440
I was advised to take a look at CS Lewis's Trilemma as an argument in favor of Christianity and folks, this is some barely coherent shit.

CS Lewis said:
I am trying here to prevent anyone saying the really foolish thing that people often say about Him: I'm ready to accept Jesus as a great moral teacher, but I don't accept his claim to be God. That is the one thing we must not say. A man who was merely a man and said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher. He would either be a lunatic — on the level with the man who says he is a poached egg — or else he would be the Devil of Hell. You must make your choice. Either this man was, and is, the Son of God, or else a madman or something worse. You can shut him up for a fool, you can spit at him and kill him as a demon or you can fall at his feet and call him Lord and God, but let us not come with any patronizing nonsense about his being a great human teacher. He has not left that open to us. He did not intend to. ... Now it seems to me obvious that He was neither a lunatic nor a fiend: and consequently, however strange or terrifying or unlikely it may seem, I have to accept the view that He was and is God.[SUP][15][/SUP]


The Wikipedia article does a good job summarizing that the arguments against, but "you cannot be a good teacher of some morals and also be a liar or wrongly believe you are God" just seems........ extremely not compatible about real life.

This argument is done even worse in his books.

A version of this argument appears in Lewis' book The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe. When Lucy and Edmund return from Narnia (her second visit and his first), Edmund tells Peter and Susan that he was playing along with Lucy and pretending they went to Narnia. Peter and Susan believe Edmund and are worried that Lucy might be mentally ill, so they seek out the Professor whose house they are living in. After listening to them explain the situation and asking them some questions, he responds:


"Logic!" said the Professor half to himself. "Why don't they teach logic at these schools? There are only three possibilities. Either your sister is telling lies, or she is mad, or she is telling the truth. You know she doesn't tell lies and it is obvious she is not mad. For the moment then, and unless any further evidence turns up, we must assume she is telling the truth.

It is obvious that she is not mad or lying about anything? Really? No one can be mistaken or lie about some things?

It's especially odd as it's an argument for Christianity, and yet Muslims could make the exact argument about Muhammad (except with talking to God instead of being God).

Anyway, I'm shocked at how popular this argument is as it's so bad.
 

Kinthey

Avenger
Oct 27, 2017
22,270
noH1pg4.jpg


A strong argument at first glance but it's actually a bit of a non sequitur
 

chiller

Member
Apr 23, 2021
2,777
"But there are even worse things in the world than the bad thing you are critiquing!"
 

Lobster Roll

signature-less, now and forever
Member
Sep 24, 2019
34,305
Does the bodybuilding forum 7 days in a week argument fall under the heading of "famous"?
 
Oct 25, 2017
8,565
I was advised to take a look at CS Lewis's Trilemma as an argument in favor of Christianity and folks, this is some barely coherent shit.




The Wikipedia article does a good job summarizing that the arguments against, but "you cannot be a good teacher of some morals and also be a liar or wrongly believe you are God" just seems........ extremely not compatible about real life.

This argument is done even worse in his books.



It is obvious that she is not mad or lying about anything? Really? No one can be mistaken or lie about some things?

It's especially odd as it's an argument for Christianity, and yet Muslims could make the exact argument about Muhammad (except with talking to God instead of being God).

Anyway, I'm shocked at how popular this argument is as it's so bad.

TBF in the book, the professor knowns of Narnia and wants the kids to discover it so obviously he's going to side with Lucy, but yes the overall argument is dumb.
 

blame space

Resettlement Advisor
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
15,420
comparatively, it is kind of insane that alcohol is legal and you can buy it at stores on every corner.
 

Toumari

Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,300
England

Was about Sony pulling out of PAX which then turned into an argument that deaths from Covid would be no worst than car crashes or the seasonal flu. Let me find it.

Edit:
www.resetera.com

PlayStation cancels planned PAX East appearance due to increasing concerns related to Coronavirus [See Staff Post]

https://blog.us.playstation.com/2020/02/13/playstation-at-pax-east-play-the-last-of-us-part-ii-final-fantasy-vii-remake-more/
 

Biggersmaller

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
4,966
Minneapolis
C.S. Lewis was making a valid point. What is a bad argument is believing the non-God Jesus said what he did in the Christian Bible, but also regarding him as a good man with valuable moral teachings. His point that Jesus under those parameters would either be a con artist who lied about being a deity or a true lunatic whose mental illness led to the creation of a 2000 year cult makes sense to me.
 

pauljeremiah

Member
Oct 28, 2017
997
Ireland
I was at Dublin Comic Con a few years ago and I was walking down a hallway I heard someone shout as they banged their hand on a table "I've told you before, Guy Gardner can beat up the Flash!!"
 
OP
OP
ItWasMeantToBe19
Oct 26, 2017
20,440
There's plenty of nuclear grade bad takes that you've had. Wanting to restrict people enjoying alcohol and arguing people of color shouldn't buy a gun because "you don't want to murder people with depression"

My argument there is not that black people shouldn't buy a gun but that no one should buy a gun.

My last post (that I got banned for) was very flippant which is not good, but there was just no evidence produced at all by the pro-gun side that the ecological effect was at play. Meanwhile, people do kill themselves a lot with guns and mostly enjoy few to no safety benefits from owning a gun (though there is the one anecdote in the thread) on average.
 

captainmal01

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,339
Enoch Powell's Rivers of Blood speech

A shite diatribe criticising new racial equality laws in the UK and demanding immigration be introduced to a negligible amount, and to prevent multiculturalism from sprouting. Playing on the unfounded fears that the working white family will be a minority soon enough. Saying that there will be violent uprisings if this continues.
"As I look ahead, I am filled with foreboding. Like the Roman, I seem to see "the River Tiber foaming with much blood"

Textbook definition of playing on emotion and being a dog whistle with no facts or evidence.

It was so significant the Tories probably won the election for tapping into that far right rhetoric and emboldened the gammons to spew more hateful bile, while still being referenced 50 years on, from politicians to the Tommy ghouls.


I also dislike "It is what it is", because it seems so defeatist in nature and that you're resigned to the outcome, so nothing shoulf be done to change it.
 

shnurgleton

Member
Oct 27, 2017
15,864
Boston

The Albatross

Member
Oct 25, 2017
38,958
I'm an atheist but I've always appreciated CS Lewis' and GK Chesterton's writings on Christianity and Orthodoxy, and I don't think it's a bad argument in the right context. I don't think the argument from Lewis is that nobody can be a great moral teacher and not be god, but that Jesus specifically as he's described in all four gospels. If you take the Gospel of John being as legitimate as the other Gospels, no more or less true than the others, the Jesus does certainly allude to himself as being God or having some unique relationship with God which starts to resemble the Trinity. For the early Church at least, the words attributed to Jesus by John make a strong argument for the divinity of Jesus. I think Lewis' argument in Mere Christianity is if you place weight in Jesus as a moral teacher, that you think there's some foundation there and that he's not a raving madman, then you can't separate Jesus in Matthew, Mark, and Luke from Christ in the Gospel of John.

I think Lewis is best when he follows Chesterton, making an argument from Orthodoxy to other Christians, not with -- say -- atheists or humanists. The audience he was usually speaking to was a Christian-friendly secular audience, where you saw this trend of moving away from the divinity of Christ and more to the idea that Jesus is like Aristotle. I think Lewis is right that Jesus cannot be Aristotle, Jesus didn't seek his moral authority through reason, but through faith, so in the 20s and 30s when Christian-adjacent humanists were reconsidering the divinity of Christ while still preserving the teachings of Jesus, as long as you take the the four gospels as co-equally legitimate, then challenging Christ's divinity challenges faith in Christ which ultimately challenges Jesus' moral teaching.

It's not that Lewis is arguing that "one can't be a good moral teacher without being god," but that for a Christian, Jesus specifically cannot be a "good moral teacher" and not be god. If you take the words of the gospels as all legitimate, then Jesus must be mad or he must be god. The most compelling argument against this, of course, is that the four gospels shouldn't be read as co-equal and they can't be interpreted as the literal word of god, that they're a product of the communities that they were written in, and in the ensuing ~70 years after Jesus' death (or whatever the latest historicity timelines of the gospels are), that some communities came to develop different theories of Jesus and Christ based on what was important to them at that time. To me, an atheist, this seems like the most reasonable and historically accurate way to read the gospels and still find a lot of value in them, but for an Orthodox Christian, Catholic, Eastern, etc (or even probably Anglican), Lewis would argue, y'know, you're rreally not supposed to pick and choose which "word of god" is the "word of god."

When reading St. Thomas, Chesterton, and C.S. Lewis, they all sort of start from the same precept: "These things all being true... (...) ...These things must follow." So coming to them without agreeing with that first part then the second part becomes flimsy. I don't believe in god, and so I don't believe those first things are true, but if I did believe those first things are true, then I think there's a simple logic. I think Lewis was right in limiting the scope of Mere Christianity, especially for the context: He was giving the lectures to counter English-language Nazi propaganda that was over-taking British airwaves whenever there wasn't something else being broadcast. Chesterton didn't limit his scope in the same way that Lewis did early on, and which is what makes Chesterton so fun, but also much more flawed and subsequently less well known... unless you're really into Christian apologetics or early 20th century humorists/satirists.
 

meowdi gras

Member
Feb 24, 2018
12,611
C.S. Lewis was making a valid point. What is a bad argument is believing the non-God Jesus said what he did in the Christian Bible, but also regarding him as a good man with valuable moral teachings. His point that Jesus under those parameters would either be a con artist who lied about being a deity or a true lunatic whose mental illness led to the creation of a 2000 year cult makes sense to me.
Or--bear with me--Jesus of Nazareth was a remarkably enlightened mortal whom did indeed espouse many of the great humanistic teachings attributed to him in the Bible, but all those claims of him being the Son of God and all that were made up by many of his followers at a later date?

You don't have to throw out Jesus and his valuable example with the bath water if you're open to this likelihood.
 

Kmonk

#TeamThierry
Member
Oct 30, 2017
3,683
US
I'm an atheist but I've always appreciated CS Lewis' and GK Chesterton's writings on Christianity and Orthodoxy, and I don't think it's a bad argument in the right context. I don't think the argument from Lewis is that nobody can be a great moral teacher and not be god, but that Jesus specifically as he's described in all four gospels. If you take the Gospel of John being as legitimate as the other Gospels, no more or less true than the others, the Jesus does certainly allude to himself as being God or having some unique relationship with God which starts to resemble the Trinity. For the early Church at least, the words attributed to Jesus by John make a strong argument for the divinity of Jesus. I think Lewis' argument in Mere Christianity is if you place weight in Jesus as a moral teacher, that you think there's some foundation there and that he's not a raving madman, then you can't separate Jesus in Matthew, Mark, and Luke from Christ in the Gospel of John.

I think Lewis is best when he follows Chesterton, making an argument from Orthodoxy to other Christians, not with -- say -- atheists or humanists. The audience he was usually speaking to was a Christian-friendly secular audience, where you saw this trend of moving away from the divinity of Christ and more to the idea that Jesus is like Aristotle. I think Lewis is right that Jesus cannot be Aristotle, Jesus didn't seek his moral authority through reason, but through faith, so in the 20s and 30s when Christian-adjacent humanists were reconsidering the divinity of Christ while still preserving the teachings of Jesus, as long as you take the the four gospels as co-equally legitimate, then challenging Christ's divinity challenges faith in Christ which ultimately challenges Jesus' moral teaching.

It's not that Lewis is arguing that "one can't be a good moral teacher without being god," but that for a Christian, Jesus specifically cannot be a "good moral teacher" and not be god. If you take the words of the gospels as all legitimate, then Jesus must be mad or he must be god. The most compelling argument against this, of course, is that the four gospels shouldn't be read as co-equal and they can't be interpreted as the literal word of god, that they're a product of the communities that they were written in, and in the ensuing ~70 years after Jesus' death (or whatever the latest historicity timelines of the gospels are), that some communities came to develop different theories of Jesus and Christ based on what was important to them at that time. To me, an atheist, this seems like the most reasonable and historically accurate way to read the gospels and still find a lot of value in them, but for an Orthodox Christian, Catholic, Eastern, etc (or even probably Anglican), Lewis would argue, y'know, you're rreally not supposed to pick and choose which "word of god" is the "word of god."

When reading St. Thomas, Chesterton, and C.S. Lewis, they all sort of start from the same precept: "These things all being true... (...) ...These things must follow." So coming to them without agreeing with that first part then the second part becomes flimsy. I don't believe in god, and so I don't believe those first things are true, but if I did believe those first things are true, then I think there's a simple logic. I think Lewis was right in limiting the scope of Mere Christianity, especially for the context: He was giving the lectures to counter English-language Nazi propaganda that was over-taking British airwaves whenever there wasn't something else being broadcast. Chesterton didn't limit his scope in the same way that Lewis did early on, and which is what makes Chesterton so fun, but also much more flawed and subsequently less well known... unless you're really into Christian apologetics or early 20th century humorists/satirists.


Feels like the crux of your statement is that if a person is not already a believer in the Christian Orthodoxy, then they can safely regard Lewis' argument as dogshit.
 

diakyu

Member
Dec 15, 2018
17,525
What I've learned in college is that a lot of historical arguments for anything is usually leaving out some controversial bit or some moment where the speaker barrels off the side of the cliff argument-wise.
 

The Albatross

Member
Oct 25, 2017
38,958
Feels like the crux of your statement is that if a person is not already a believer in the Christian Orthodoxy, then they can safely regard Lewis' argument as dogshit.

Yeah, exactly. If you're an atheist or don't believe in Christ, then an argument tying the divinity of christ to the value of Jesus' moral lessons probably doesn't mean shit to you and it's not even worth thinking about.
 
Oct 27, 2017
21,514
There was someone that was arguing tomatoes are poisonous and shouldn't be eaten. I know Europeans a couple hundred years ago commonly believed that, but in this day and age? I mean don't eat a tomato plant, but why would you do that.
 

Gorger

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,628
Norway
Pascal's wager was the first thing that came to mind.

Pascal argues that a rational person should live as though (the Christian) God exists and seek to believe in God. If God does not actually exist, such a person will have only a finite loss (some pleasures, luxury, etc.), whereas if God does exist, he stands to receive infinite gains (as represented by eternity in Heaven) and avoid infinite losses (eternity in Hell).

There is so many wrongs with that argument I don't even know where to start.
 

Deleted member 85465

User-requested account closure
Banned
Nov 12, 2020
976
I am not sure if its even an argument but the "some people just discovered "company" is not their friend" any time a company makes a bad decision/ anticonsumer decision.

I have never seen anyone here or in any other site say that they think a company is their friend, worse than that the phrase is said when people here or in other sites are criticizing a company for a bad decision, it just doesn´t add anything to the discussion.

Is it supposed to justify the bad decision or defend it? I don´t even know.
 

Chikor

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
14,239
Pascal's wager was the first thing that came to mind.

Pascal argues that a rational person should live as though (the Christian) God exists and seek to believe in God. If God does not actually exist, such a person will have only a finite loss (some pleasures, luxury, etc.), whereas if God does exist, he stands to receive infinite gains (as represented by eternity in Heaven) and avoid infinite losses (eternity in Hell).

There is so many wrongs with that argument I don't even know where to start.
And yet somehow people managed to take this shit and turn it into something even dumber in Roko's basilisk.
It's amazing when you think about it.
 

andymcc

Member
Oct 25, 2017
26,271
Columbus, OH
As someone who lives in Virginia, it's wild to see state-run liquor monopolies presented as some ludicrous proposal. That's already how it's done in a quarter of the states!

we have state run liquor agencies in Ohio too. they aren't calculating the volume of liquor I buy.

can you imagine if a restaurant had to ID check a database to see if you're exceeding an allotted amount when ordering a cocktail? lol
 
OP
OP
ItWasMeantToBe19
Oct 26, 2017
20,440
Definitely going to need something more nuanced than this, since people with disabilities need to be able to get around too. Electric cars seem pretty good tbh

This caveat depends on the disability. Buses could still exist (they take up little space and aren't huge safety risks compared to cars) and they can accommodate people with mobility issues. Extreme social anxiety seems like it could be handled well with bicycles if someone does not like riding a bus. Mobility issues combined with extreme social anxiety could be an issue, however.
 

Pau

Self-Appointed Godmother of Bruce Wayne's Children
Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,838
C.S. Lewis was making a valid point. What is a bad argument is believing the non-God Jesus said what he did in the Christian Bible, but also regarding him as a good man with valuable moral teachings. His point that Jesus under those parameters would either be a con artist who lied about being a deity or a true lunatic whose mental illness led to the creation of a 2000 year cult makes sense to me.
I don't see why it's impossible to take the position that the guy was wrong about being a god, but otherwise made some good moral points. Also weird to equate being mentally ill with being immoral. Alternatively, someone could lie about this on purpose to try to spread their other ideas. Not exactly ethical, but an understandable tactic. It's not like the people claiming these things are holding Jesus as he's presented in the Bible up as infallible. Just saying that they recognize worth in some of his teachings.
 

TAJ

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
12,446
That cars have massively damaged society in the United States and should be heavily discouraged with cities rebuilt to not be driveable to encourage more walking and e-bikes.

Ignoring the issue of bankrupting cities for something no one but you wants, how would cities run without delivery trucks in 2021?