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Is there life on Europa, Titan, Enceladus, and etc?

  • Yes

    Votes: 79 51.0%
  • No

    Votes: 18 11.6%
  • ayy lmao

    Votes: 58 37.4%

  • Total voters
    155

Forerunner

Resetufologist
The Fallen
Oct 30, 2017
14,575
scitechdaily.com

Worlds With Underground Oceans – Like Europa, Titan, and Enceladus – May Be More Conducive to Supporting Life Than Earth

Layers of ice and rock obviate the need for "habitable zone" and shield life against threats. SwRI researcher theorizes worlds with underground oceans may be more conducive to life than worlds with surface oceans like Earth. One of the most profound discoveries in planetary science over the pa



Enceladus-Interior-Water-Ocean-World-777x722.jpg


One of the most profound discoveries in planetary science over the past 25 years is that worlds with oceans beneath layers of rock and ice are common in our solar system. Such worlds include the icy satellites of the giant planets, like Europa, Titan, and Enceladus, and distant planets like Pluto.

In a report presented at the 52nd annual Lunar and Planetary Science Conference (LPSC 52) this week, Southwest Research Institute planetary scientist S. Alan Stern writes that the prevalence of interior water ocean worlds (IWOWs) in our solar system suggests they may be prevalent in other star systems as well, vastly expanding the conditions for planetary habitability and biological survival over time.

Worlds like Earth, with oceans on their exterior, are also subject to many kinds of threats to life, ranging from asteroid and comet impacts, to stellar flares with dangerous radiation, to nearby supernova explosions and more. Stern's paper points out that IWOWs are impervious to such threats because their oceans are protected by a roof of ice and rock, typically several to many tens of kilometers thick, that overlie their oceans.

"Interior water ocean worlds are better suited to provide many kinds of environmental stability, and are less likely to suffer threats to life from their own atmosphere, their star, their solar system, and the galaxy, than are worlds like Earth, which have their oceans on the outside," said Stern.

"The same protective layer of ice and rock that creates stable environments for life also sequesters that life from easy detection," said Stern.

In 2015, NASA created the Ocean Worlds Exploration Program, which seeks to explore an ocean world to determine habitability and seek life. Moons that harbor oceans under a shell of ice, such as Europa and Titan, are already the targets of NASA missions to study the habitability of these worlds.

The paper, "Some Implications for Both Life and Civilizations Regarding Interior Water Ocean Worlds" at LPSC 52 is available here (PDF).
 

julia crawford

Took the red AND the blue pills
Member
Oct 27, 2017
35,166
Can you imagine how dark it must be beneath the ice in Europa... it must be so scary.

We need to visit these places asap.
 

Ariakon44

Prophet of Truth
Member
Nov 17, 2020
10,173
I wouldn't be surprised, but it'd be hard to see how intelligent life could develop on those moons and planets, at least intelligent life that could build much of anything. Probably be a bunch of gorgeous/terrifying sea monsters.
 

KamenSenshi

Member
Nov 27, 2017
1,861
This is what I want to see. Go explore a water world. I wish there could be a mission that took a submersible of some sort. I would love to see what an ocean on another planet has in it.
 

samyy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
430
I wouldn't be surprised, but it'd be hard to see how intelligent life could develop on those moons and planets, at least intelligent life that could build much of anything. Probably be a bunch of gorgeous/terrifying sea monsters.

I mean, if we find any kind of life at all the implications would be massive. It would logical to then conclude life is plentiful, and that if you could have multiple variations of complex lifeforms within one solar system (ie. Earth-style based + IWOWS), then a Universe full of life is given.
 

Ariakon44

Prophet of Truth
Member
Nov 17, 2020
10,173
I mean, if we find any kind of life at all the implications would be massive. It would logical to then conclude life is plentiful, and that if you could have multiple variations of complex lifeforms within one solar system (ie. Earth-style based + IWOWS), then a Universe full of life is given.

Oh, absolutely, I didn't mean to make it sound unworthy of investigation or that finding any sort of life would be anything short of monumental, I was just thinking about what kind of life it would actually be.
 

Kinthey

Avenger
Oct 27, 2017
22,273
I guess it'd be filled with the same kind of horror creatures as the deep sea or deep underground caves
 

Ariakon44

Prophet of Truth
Member
Nov 17, 2020
10,173
Aren't octopuses pretty smart?

They are, and octopuses can use tools, but I think creatures from an underground ocean would have a hard time building the sort of technology that would allow them to communicate with us. I guess Arrival did have the heptapods that lived in some sort of gas or liquid, but generally it's hard to make certain types of objects without hands or thumbs. Also, it's really hard to use fire as a tool underwater.

So yeah, there could absolutely be intelligent sea life, I just doubt they would have the sort of civilization we're used to.
 
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Netherscourge

Member
Oct 25, 2017
18,904
I think the next NASA remote "rovers" should be mini-subs. Just gotta figure out how to get them under the ice on those moons and how to get them to come back up to transmit back to Earth at regular intervals.
 

Barbarossa

Member
Oct 30, 2017
1,267
I say we build giant drills with nukes just to be sure. This is OUR solar system. I'm not sharing it with some squid monsters on Europa.
 

thefit

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,243
Makes sense since early earth life was ocean based with land based life evolving from it.
 

Prinz Eugn

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,393
Some thoughts: Do the temperatures and pressures in those oceans support complex organic molecules like kind you'd need for life similar to Earth's? They've found microbes hundreds of meters into the crust under the ocean, but I assume there are some limits.

The next big question is similar, but for complex life, which at least on Earth have a much narrower range of potential conditions (e.g., there are probably no vertebrates in the deepest parts of the Marianas Trench).

Then, I wonder if there's an issue with the origin of life, where the conditions for life to arise are waaay narrower than where it can eventually survive.
 

Djalminha

Alt-Account
Banned
Sep 22, 2020
2,103
They are, and octopuses can use tools, but I think creatures from an underground ocean would have a hard time building the sort of technology that would allow them to communicate with us. I guess Arrival did have the heptapods that lived in some sort of gas or liquid, but generally it's hard to make certain types of objects without hands or thumbs. Also, it's really hard to use fire as a tool underwater.

So yeah, there could absolutely be intelligent sea life, I just doubt they would have the sort of civilization we're used to.
This is very relative, there are many kinds of intelligence. We are very smart yet we continue to indulge in behaviors that can lead to our destruction (nuclear weapons, climate change, war, extreme capitalism...). In this regard, I think of those ants that fight floods by making a massive ball and rotating around so that nobody is underwater for too long, ensuring nobody drawns and they all survive. Humans, in the same situation, would become desperate and try to save themselves even if they knew that could lead to everyone's destruction, which is what would happen if the ants fought to be on top like we would. I'm not saying they are smarter than us of course, I just mean they are arguably socially intelligent, with a lack of individualism that makes them brilliant in some ways. I personally think that intelligence is much more complex than we think and it doesn't need to correlate to what we assume, like being able to build complex things. Humans build lots of complex things that contribute to climate change and don't achieve anything meaningful, just make some idiot richer, we compete when we should cooperate, we often enjoy portrayals of violence towards other humans... We are very smart and very dumb at the same time.

In the case of octopuses, they spend their lives alone and only live about one year, which is very interesting because they learn all of their behaviour through experimentation, making them very unique. Imagine octopuses living decades and being able to learn from each other, they could evolve in ways we can't imagine, and I have no doubt they'd be brilliantly smart, but maybe not in ways we can recognize. A sea creature wouldn't want to use electricity or combustion energy, and maybe they see no need to cook their food, so maybe they are ultra smart and have deep philosophical conversations but because they see no need to build iPads, they just seem dumb to us who can't understand them.

Something I often think about is how capitalist societies usually consider themselves smarter than preindustrial indigenous cultures. The thing is, we are all just as intelligent when we are born. They don't have what we have but, my point is, they also don't feel the need to have it and, seeing the impact it's having in the world and society, maybe they have a point...
 
Oct 27, 2017
2,030
I don't believe there is, but think it should be investigated. Those locations are too cold that you would need the right amount of geothermal vents/warmth in the right areas for the right amount of time to even have the slightest chance of something developing.
 

Ariakon44

Prophet of Truth
Member
Nov 17, 2020
10,173
This is very relative, there are many kinds of intelligence. We are very smart yet we continue to indulge in behaviors that can lead to our destruction (nuclear weapons, climate change, war, extreme capitalism...). In this regard, I think of those ants that fight floods by making a massive ball and rotating around so that nobody is underwater for too long, ensuring nobody drawns and they all survive. Humans, in the same situation, would become desperate and try to save themselves even if they knew that could lead to everyone's destruction, which is what would happen if the ants fought to be on top like we would. I'm not saying they are smarter than us of course, I just mean they are arguably socially intelligent, with a lack of individualism that makes them brilliant in some ways. I personally think that intelligence is much more complex than we think and it doesn't need to correlate to what we assume, like being able to build complex things. Humans build lots of complex things that contribute to climate change and don't achieve anything meaningful, just make some idiot richer, we compete when we should cooperate, we often enjoy portrayals of violence towards other humans... We are very smart and very dumb at the same time.

In the case of octopuses, they spend their lives alone and only live about one year, which is very interesting because they learn all of their behaviour through experimentation, making them very unique. Imagine octopuses living decades and being able to learn from each other, they could evolve in ways we can't imagine, and I have no doubt they'd be brilliantly smart, but maybe not in ways we can recognize. A sea creature wouldn't want to use electricity or combustion energy, and maybe they see no need to cook their food, so maybe they are ultra smart and have deep philosophical conversations but because they see no need to build iPads, they just seem dumb to us who can't understand them.

Something I often think about is how capitalist societies usually consider themselves smarter than preindustrial indigenous cultures. The thing is, we are all just as intelligent when we are born. They don't have what we have but, my point is, they also don't feel the need to have it and, seeing the impact it's having in the world and society, maybe they have a point...

I agree, and I wasn't arguing against any of that. I wasn't judging forms of intelligence, I was just saying the intelligence we would encounter on an underground ocean world would be very different from ours, not better or worse.
 
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Djalminha

Alt-Account
Banned
Sep 22, 2020
2,103
I agree, and I wasn't arguing against any of that. I wasn't judging forms of intelligence, I was just saying the intelligence we would encounter on an underground ocean world would be very different from ours, not necessarily worse, maybe even better.
Sorry, I realize maybe it came across as that, but o was just expressing what your comment made me think of.

I was just thinking, if they developed energy sources, they'd probably engineer ways to take advantage of ocean currents, particularly if light doesn't reach their world. Just think of how weird that civilization could look.
 

Ariakon44

Prophet of Truth
Member
Nov 17, 2020
10,173
Sorry, I realize maybe it came across as that, but o was just expressing what your comment made me think of.

I was just thinking, if they developed energy sources, they'd probably engineer ways to take advantage of ocean currents, particularly if light doesn't reach their world. Just think of how weird that civilization could look.

Yeah, it would be fascinating to see what sort of world a species could build under such disparate conditions from ours.
 

nitewulf

Member
Nov 29, 2017
7,195
Sorry, I realize maybe it came across as that, but o was just expressing what your comment made me think of.

I was just thinking, if they developed energy sources, they'd probably engineer ways to take advantage of ocean currents, particularly if light doesn't reach their world. Just think of how weird that civilization could look.
Yeah, it would be fascinating to see what sort of world a species could build under such disparate conditions from ours.
Both of you should read this book: https://www.amazon.com/Vacuum-Diagrams-Stephen-Baxter/dp/0061059048

He has a fantastic imagination, and he does write hard sci-fi, not fantasy sci-fi. In these stories he describes absolutely fantastic life forms that could exist in our solar system, as well their different forms of intelligence.
 

Tuck

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,579
Great, so humans are alone in the universe except for terrifying fucking sea monsters on every other planet.
 

Eoin

Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,103
It would not greatly surprise me if, eventually, the percentage of interior-oceaned worlds that produced life was considerably higher than the percentage of rocky, open-oceaned planets that produced life.

Like, the geological record of Earth seems to suggest that long-term life was only just a borderline-viable proposition and that there were several occasions when things could have gone either very wrong (from the perspective of the eventual development of complex life) or very differently.

I do have to wonder though - in a lot of cases these worlds must be like those little self-contained, self-sustained ecosystems that people sometimes make in glass jars, where everything works fine as long as there's an ecological balance, and balances might even be long-term stable, but any kind of upset can cause the entire ecosystem to fall apart rapidly. As much as it wouldn't surprise me to find that a high percentage of these worlds produced life, it also wouldn't surprise me if a high percentage of them turned out to have oceans full of dead organic gunk that was the leftover result of a cascading ecological catastrophe.

I wouldn't be surprised, but it'd be hard to see how intelligent life could develop on those moons and planets, at least intelligent life that could build much of anything. Probably be a bunch of gorgeous/terrifying sea monsters.
Yeah, some tough challenges for anything developing underwater. Their whole technological outlook would start out different to ours and some of the limitations would be really severe (metalworking would be an absolute nightmare to figure out - it took millennia for humans and we had tons of advantages over underwater creatures). There's probably some scope for skipping or rearranging technological progress and I'm sure there's some advantages to starting off underwater too, but I think any intelligent life that started off underwater would probably take more time to progress than a land-based species of similar intelligence.

I think the next NASA remote "rovers" should be mini-subs. Just gotta figure out how to get them under the ice on those moons and how to get them to come back up to transmit back to Earth at regular intervals.
They're not getting back up, not a hope. Ice is going to refreeze over them. The current thinking is that any submersible would need to relay back to the surface. Maybe via cable, maybe via buoys dropped at intervals in the ice that was (somehow) melted on the way down. Those kind of options are challenging but shouldn't actually be too far-fetched if someone manages to solve the main problem of how to melt through kilometres of ice autonomously on another world.

Some thoughts: Do the temperatures and pressures in those oceans support complex organic molecules like kind you'd need for life similar to Earth's?
Yeah, it should be possible. There's estimates of Europa's ice covering that go to 30km (maybe - and likely - more in places). With gravity a bit less than a seventh of Earth's, "surface" pressure (at the top of the ocean where it met the ice covering) would be about the equivalent of the pressure that would be caused by 4km of ice on Earth, or a depth of ~3.7km of water. Plenty of life at those kinds of depths on Earth. If 30km turns out to be an overestimate (and there's estimates as low as 10km) then "surface" pressure would be significantly lower (by linear proportions, so 15km of ice would result in "surface" pressure equivalent to an ocean depth of ~1.85km on Earth.

You'd get different figures for other worlds, varying by their gravity and depth of their ice covering, but unless they were significantly bigger than Europa or had significantly thicker ice sheets, pressure should be within viable ranges for life.

The next big question is similar, but for complex life, which at least on Earth have a much narrower range of potential conditions (e.g., there are probably no vertebrates in the deepest parts of the Marianas Trench).
This little trooper isn't quite from the deepest parts of the Marianas, but close enough.
 

Djalminha

Alt-Account
Banned
Sep 22, 2020
2,103