World Wide Web inventor Tim Berners-Lee says "internet is not working for women and girls"

Persephone · Mar 12, 2020

The inventor of the world wide web said the "dangerous trend" in online abuse was forcing women out of jobs, causing girls to skip school, damaging relationships and silencing female opinions, prompting him to conclude that "the web is not working for women and girls".

"The world has made important progress on gender equality thanks to the unceasing drive of committed champions everywhere," Berners-Lee wrote in an open letter to mark the web's 31st birthday on Thursday. "But I am seriously concerned that online harms facing women and girls – especially those of colour, from LGBTQ+ communities and other marginalised groups – threaten that progress."

Second is online safety: according to a survey by Berners-Lee's Web Foundation, more than half of young women have experienced violence online, including sexual harassment, threatening messages and having private images shared without consent. The vast majority believe the problem is getting worse.

"If they are talking about issues that are pressing in the country, questioning the status quo, or denouncing what the state is doing, they will receive a lot of attacks, and there are more and more coordinated attacks from trolls, attacking their bodies, their families or relationships, and insulting how they look," said Toledo. "Their opinions are not even discussed."

He called on companies and governments to tackle online abuse as a top priority this year. More data needs to be collected and published on women's experiences online, while products, polices and services should all be designed based on data and feedback from women of all backgrounds, he said.

Finally, he urged governments to strengthen laws that hold online abusers to account, and the public to speak up whenever they witnessed abuse online.

Article is pretty short, I recommend reading it. Even here on ResetEra, a supposedly liberal community, women and women-aligned NBs are spoken over and silenced. Needless to say, it's a thousand times worse elsewhere. The internet has done a lot of good, but it's also a tool for perpetuating oppression and silencing marginalised groups.

HotHamBoy · Mar 12, 2020

i'm pretty sure real life isn't working great for women either

hateradio · Mar 12, 2020

HotHamBoy said:
i'm pretty sure real life isn't working great for women either

Even still, the web is severely skewed male because of the tech workers (mostly male) end up not caring about bias.

Oinone · Mar 12, 2020

To this day, I prefer to hide my gender everywhere. In my experience, it is always better to let them assume you are male – even if that means, they suspect you to be gay in the process – than being openly female.
Era would be a place, where I don't really see this fear necessary, but after all this time, I still don't fell comfortable with displaying my gender and prefer to keep it ambiguous.

Isilia · Mar 12, 2020

"My wife says that it doesn't bothers her..."

The one line I see the most. Damn monoliths.

Lord Fagan · Mar 12, 2020

Good thing Melania Trump is all over this.

But honestly, this sucks. Just can't catch a break, even in cyberspace.

Kthulhu · Mar 12, 2020

I can't see anything happening without government action. You could at least reduce how much of this happens between people in the same country by treating harassment online like we do in real life.

Chopchop · Mar 12, 2020

It's true, and it's good that he's drawing attention to this.

The internet doesn't just normalize casual sexism, which then goes back to harm women, but the shittier corners of it also serve as a breeding ground for the type of people who have nothing better to do with their lives than look for women to harass.

Women have learned to be far more guarded online than men, and it makes sense for them to do so in the current age of the Internet because because so many more people are out to get them. But it shouldn't be this way.

kmfdmpig · Mar 12, 2020

HotHamBoy said:
i'm pretty sure real life isn't working great for women either

A creep or misogynist will feel less empowered face to face and will also have fewer opportunities to cause harm. Online they feel safer to be a dick and can reach many more people

Shining Star · Mar 12, 2020

He is right, a lot of this hits very close to home. I don't know what we can really do about it though.

Snake Eater · Mar 12, 2020

HotHamBoy said:
i'm pretty sure real life isn't working great for women either

and we're done

Deleted member 13101 · Mar 12, 2020

kmfdmpig said:
A creep or misogynist will feel less empowered face to face and will also have fewer opportunities to cause harm. Online they feel safer to be a dick and can reach many more people

If only this was true. Face-to-face forms of misogyny flourish to this day.

Terra Torment · Mar 12, 2020

This is definitely true for me. I've been subject to an online harassment campaign for being an SJW that went into overdrive when I came out as a transgender woman.

Shining Star · Mar 12, 2020

kmfdmpig said:
A creep or misogynist will feel less empowered face to face and will also have fewer opportunities to cause harm. Online they feel safer to be a dick and can reach many more people

This is true but offline is still a huge problem and can be a lot more insidious and hard to deal with too. It's easier to ignore stuff online.

Terra Torment said:
This is definitely true for me. I've been subject to an online harassment campaign for being an SJW that went into overdrive when I came out as a transgender woman.

So sorry to hear that! No one should have to deal with harassment like that. Don't let them shake your beliefs.

Weltall Zero · Mar 12, 2020

HotHamBoy said:
i'm pretty sure real life isn't working great for women either

Sorry but this is doesn't help the discussion. It's nothing more than a drive-by low-hanging truism that deflects from the specific topic at hand. At worst it's a whataboutism, and also a self-demonstrating example: do you really think Persephone needs to be told this?

Snake Eater said:
and we're done

No, we're not.

meowdi gras · Mar 12, 2020

Persephone said:
Even here on ResetEra, a supposedly liberal community, women and women-aligned NBs are spoken over and silenced.

.

Chopchop · Mar 12, 2020

Weltall Zero said:
Sorry but this is doesn't help the discussion. It's nothing more than a drive-by low-hanging truism that deflects from the specific topic at hand. At worst it's a whataboutism, and also a self-demonstrating example: do you really think Persephone needs to be told this?

No, we're not.

Yeah, it's kind of an "all lives matter" counterargument.

While true, it distracts from the main point that's trying to be made here.

Ashlette · Mar 12, 2020

Nothing better than to see "and were done here" before actual women share their input.

Weltall Zero · Mar 12, 2020

Chopchop said:
Yeah, it's kind of an "all lives matter" counterargument.

While true, it distracts from the main point that's trying to be made here.

It's horrendously common from men in supposedly progressive communities like Era. You can almost picture them smirking while they post their five-second drive-by, then closing the tab and never coming back. Literally the least conceivable amount of mental effort to engage with the topic.

I seriously can't get over the monumental irony of textbook mansplaining on a topic about men talking over women. :/

Isilia · Mar 12, 2020

Almost as "good" to see as "Women in X country have it MUCH worse than in yours!"

antispin · Mar 12, 2020

I used to be so optimistic about globalisation and the internet. No longer.

20 years ago, never did I imagine we would be where we find ourselves today in 2020.

Jraphics Horse · Mar 12, 2020

Wonderment said:
If only this was true. Face-to-face forms of misogyny flourish to this day.

whatever the intentions, I don't think posts saying 'but real life too!' are helpful to topics about online harassment. We're talking about a medium where people can be sent threats from 1000s of people.

Yasuke · Mar 12, 2020

Who is it working for?

Deleted member 13101 · Mar 12, 2020

Jraphics Horse said:
whatever the intentions, I don't think posts saying 'but real life too!' are helpful to topics about online harassment. We're talking about a medium where people can be sent threats from 1000s of people.

The input into that medium comes from real life. Gamergate started from a real-life relationship.

I'm also referring to my wife's real-life experiences with things being brought on-line, and how she has had to protect herself and her family's business from harassment. I'm sorry you don't find this helpful.

Deleted member 9035 · Mar 12, 2020

Shining Star said:
He is right, a lot of this hits very close to home. I don't know what we can really do about it though.

Have there been any long term studies on the effects of differences in male education from a young age?

Weltall Zero · Mar 12, 2020

Isilia said:
Almost as "good" to see as "Women in X country have it MUCH worse than in yours!"

Fortunately that one is so obvious that at least here it gets a quick ban (not that it stops people from doing it!). I feel like "well don't you know this happens in real life too?" flies under the radar much more often.

rras1994 · Mar 12, 2020

Wonderment said:
The input into that medium comes from real life. Gamergate started from a real-life relationship.

I'm also referring to my wife's real-life experiences with things being brought on-line, and how she has had to protect herself and her family's business from harassment. I'm sorry you don't find this helpful.

I mean this in the nicest possible way, but using "But my wife's experiences..." comes off terrible. And yes, women are aware that life can be terrible in the real world too. The topic was deliberately about the internet. You are talking over us. You may not mean to, but that's what comments like that do.

Fiction · Mar 12, 2020

Ashlette said:
Nothing better than to see "and were done here" before actual women share their input.

Yeeep

Shining Star · Mar 12, 2020

efyu_lemonardo said:
Have there been any long term studies on the effects of differences in male education from a young age?

I don't know if schools teach about stuff like this. I think they just go online and think that everything happening there is ok and normal.

Deleted member 8861 · Mar 12, 2020

Everyone deserves better than that.

What a fucking depressing article.

rras1994 · Mar 12, 2020

Shining Star said:
I don't know if schools teach about stuff like this. I think they just go online and think that everything happening there is ok and normal.

The only thing I remember being taught about the internet was basically stranger danger. But I wasn't really taught about sexism in general tbh.

Superbly Superlative · Mar 12, 2020

Oinone said:
To this day, I prefer to hide my gender everywhere. In my experience, it is always better to let them assume you are male – even if that means, they suspect you to be gay in the process – than being openly female.
Era would be a place, where I don't really see this fear necessary, but after all this time, I still don't fell comfortable with displaying my gender and prefer to keep it ambiguous.

I feel you there. At work I'm "the unicorns and rainbows guy" and everyone thinks I'm being ironic about it. If I was totally fearless, I would show up the next day as female-presenting. But I'm not fearless, I am incredibly fearful about it.

On Era I'm more open about it if only because the account is siloed from the rest of my online presence save for a few Discord servers I belong to.

Weltall Zero · Mar 12, 2020

Wonderment said:
The input into that medium comes from real life. Gamergate started from a real-life relationship.

I'm also referring to my wife's real-life experiences with things being brought on-line, and how she has had to protect herself and her family's business from harassment. I'm sorry you don't find this helpful.

So we're not just getting dudes mansplaining away the actual topic with "well it happens in real life too", but mods doing the same and speaking for their wives while being passive-aggressive to anyone that points it out.

I just fucking can't.

Deleted member 9035 · Mar 12, 2020

Shining Star said:
I don't know if schools teach about stuff like this. I think they just go online and think that everything happening there is ok and normal.

I don't know either, and I suspect they don't do anything.
It's extremely angering that more attempts aren't being made in education to address this. Even if those attempts lead to no change in behavior, discovering what doesn't work is still (slightly) better than doing nothing, and hopefully leads to approaches that do yeild positive results.

Adventureracing · Mar 12, 2020

Wonderment said:
If only this was true. Face-to-face forms of misogyny flourish to this day.

I think you're off base here. Online and social media allows far more people to harass women who otherwise wouldn't in person and allows them to do it on a large scale. It's reached the point where a lot of women avoid things that will make them the target of public scrutiny lest they put themselves at the will of the online masses.

That's not to say that misogyny out in the real world isn't rife but this is a whole other thing.

Isilia · Mar 12, 2020

Wonderment said:
The input into that medium comes from real life. Gamergate started from a real-life relationship.

I'm also referring to my wife's real-life experiences with things being brought on-line, and how she has had to protect herself and her family's business from harassment. I'm sorry you don't find this helpful.

This is disheartening to see and I'm not even the one affected by it.

Weltall Zero said:
Fortunately that one is so obvious that at least here it gets a quick ban (not that it stops people from doing it!). I feel like "well don't you know this happens in real life too?" flies under the radar much more often.

I can see why now.

Deleted member 13101 · Mar 12, 2020

rras1994 said:
I mean this in the nicest possible way, but using "But my wife's experiences..." comes off terrible. And yes, women are aware that life can be terrible in the real world too. The topic was deliberately about the internet. You are talking over us. You may not mean to, but that's what comments like that do.

Yes it is terrible. Because things were brought online and weaponized against her, and amplified to the point where instead of people speaking up, she lost friendships, relationships, and online-only connections because of the facebook activity. Not to mention fearing for her safety. A couple of rounds with law enforcement has demonstrated how little they help until something is actually perpetrated. So now she does only linkedin and one or two other professional sites so she can at least look for a job when she needs to.

Further, her mother's business had to be scrubbed from the internet for a time (as much as possibly could be done) because her information was being used to deny her business, until they got a more secure web site. They need the online presence to interact properly with state regulators and reach markets to sustain business.

The article cites Lee as saying "More data needs to be collected and published on women's experiences online". Well, this is just one data point. As you were.

Delphine · Mar 12, 2020

HotHamBoy said:
i'm pretty sure real life isn't working great for women either

Pretty much, yes.
The Internet being unwelcoming to women & girls is being that way precisely because the real world has been unwelcoming to women & girls for the longest of times to begin with. One is just an expected reflection of the other. And fighting for women & girls to be welcomed on the internet also is deeply linked to fighting sexism in real life. The internet has never lived in isolation from the real world, it was the biggest lie ever yet lots of people believed it.

rras1994 · Mar 12, 2020

Wonderment said:
Yes it is terrible. Because things were brought online and weaponized against her, and amplified to the point where instead of people speaking up, she lost friendships, relationships, and online-only connections because of the facebook activity. Not to mention fearing for her safety. A couple of rounds with law enforcement has demonstrated how little they help until something is actually perpetrated. So now she does only linkedin and one or two other professional sites so she can at least look for a job when she needs to.

Further, her mother's business had to be scrubbed from the internet for a time (as much as possibly could be done) because her information was being used to deny her business, until they got a more secure web site. They need the online presence to interact properly with state regulators and reach markets to sustain business.

The article cites Lee as saying "More data needs to be collected and published on women's experiences online". Well, this is just one data point. As you were.

And if your wife comes into this thread and wants to speak about her experiences, I'd be happy to do so. But it's not appropriate to use her as a weapon to push down women posters on resetera when they criticise you for talking over them. It's not appropriate at all. I gave you the benefit of the doubt for the first post but pleas stop, you are a mod of this community and I expect better of a mod not to speak over women, especially when they know sexism is a big issue on this site

Deleted member 9035 · Mar 12, 2020

We have to find ways to create safer online spaces without going through the tremendous (and unfeasible in the near term) effort of re-educating a sufficient number of men.

Ideas that come to mind are various forms of policing unwanted behavior and I think that may be the best way to quickly achieve the desired result. It's pretty backwards that we've figured out how to enforce copyright law in the virtual space but essentially no progress has been made when it comes to enforcing individual rights of safety.

Oinone · Mar 12, 2020

Superbly Superlative said:
I feel you there. At work I'm "the unicorns and rainbows guy" and everyone thinks I'm being ironic about it. If I was totally fearless, I would show up the next day as female-presenting. But I'm not fearless, I am incredibly fearful about it.

On Era I'm more open about it if only because the account is siloed from the rest of my online presence save for a few Discord servers I belong to.

Oh, I was speaking about online only. There is nothing to hide for me in RL.
I'm more of a tomboy person, and never been a girlish girl, so online people are quick to picture me as male from my posts, and I just always went with that.
But I never tried actively to come off as male, thus it was suspected I might be gay, when I was drooling over a male character or whatever.
And I still felt better with that than letting people know, there is actually a woman behind the account.
(I just wanted to clarify, cause your background seems a bit different here as I understand it, and I'd feel kinda dishonest otherwise. :>)

Deleted member 9035 · Mar 12, 2020

Delphine said:
Pretty much, yes.
The Internet being unwelcoming to women & girls is being that way precisely because the real world has been unwelcoming to women & girls for the longest of times to begin with. One is just an expected reflection of the other. And fighting for women & girls to be welcomed on the internet also is deeply linked to fighting sexism in real life. The internet has never lived in isolation from the real world, it was the biggest lie ever yet lots of people believed it.

I was waiting for a woman to come in and say this. I think this is what some of the other men posters meant, basically.

Raccoon · Mar 12, 2020

HotHamBoy said:
i'm pretty sure real life isn't working great for women either

this guy basically created the internet, of course he's commenting on the internet specifically

Deleted member 13101 · Mar 12, 2020

rras1994 said:
And if your wife comes into this thread and wants to speak about her experiences, I'd be happy to do so. But it's not appropriate to use her as a weapon to push down women posters on resetera when they criticise you for talking over them. It's not appropriate at all. I gave you the benefit of the doubt for the first post but pleas stop, you are a mod of this community and I expect better of a mod not to speak over women, especially when they know sexism is a big issue on this site

I'm not pushing down anyone, just merely sharing an experience.

My wife won't come online to discuss things, because of this experience and the lack of support she received - that is the point.

She is not a weapon, and for you to even characterize her as something other than a valid person is highly inappropriate.

rras1994 · Mar 12, 2020

Wonderment said:
I'm not pushing down anyone, just merely sharing an experience.

My wife won't come online to discuss things, because of this experience and the lack of support she received - that is the point.

She is not a weapon, and for you to even characterize her as something other than a valid person is highly inappropriate.

I never said she wasn't a valid person? I am sick of guy posters on this site talking over me and telling me what their wife's and girlfriends opinion is on topics against me when we disagree with you on something, women are fully able to speak for themselves here. We don't need reminded that sexism is a thing in real life, of course we know it is, it just comes across as dismissive and takes away from what the topic is actually about.

Delphine · Mar 12, 2020

rras1994 said:
I never said she wasn't a valid person? I am sick of guy posters on this site talking over me and telling me what their wife's and girlfriends opinion is on topics against me when we disagree with you on something, women are fully able to speak for themselves here. We don't need reminded that sexism is a thing in real life, of course we know it is, it just comes across as dismissive and takes away from what the topic is actually about.

The way I see it, if one were to take actions in order to try and fix the fact the Internet is unwelcoming to women & girls, it would be the equivalent of putting a bandage on a wooden leg, if nothing is done in real life as well in equal measures. Sure, there are things that needs to be done to fix Internet-related specific problems, but it's much bigger than it, always has been, always will be. Just another symptom of the same tentacular disease called "patriarchy" to me.

rras1994 · Mar 12, 2020

Delphine said:
The way I see, if one were to take actions in order to try and fix the fact the Internet is unwelcoming to women & girls, it would be the equivalent of putting a bandage on a wooden leg, if nothing is done in real life as well in equal measures. Sure, there are things that needs to be done to fix Internet-related specific problems, but it's much bigger than it, always has been, always will be. Just another symptom of the same disease to me.

The internet being allowed to be an unfettered sexist pit is relaying in to real life. Incels, gamergaters and other sexist congregate together getting more and more extreme, in a way they really can't do in real life. And gain access to women's life's in a way they can't do in real life. You need to fix the internet with things like harsher moderation and actually charging people cus it leads to a rabbit hole and encourages such behaviours and it's not real life all causing them.

Steel · Mar 12, 2020

Delphine said:
The way I see it, if one were to take actions in order to try and fix the fact the Internet is unwelcoming to women & girls, it would be the equivalent of putting a bandage on a wooden leg, if nothing is done in real life as well in equal measures. Sure, there are things that needs to be done to fix Internet-related specific problems, but it's much bigger than it, always has been, always will be. Just another symptom of the same tentacular disease called "patriarchy" to me.

It's a feedback loop, honestly. Can't solve one without the other, and the internet is the louder end of the feedback loop.

Delphine · Mar 12, 2020

rras1994 said:
The internet being allowed to be an unfettered sexist pit is relaying in to real life. Incels, gamergaters and other sexist congregate together getting more and more extreme, in a way they really can't do in real life. And gain access to women's life's in a way they can't do in real life. You need to fix the internet with things like harsher moderation and actually charging people cus it leads to a rabbit hole and encourages such behaviours and it's not real life all causing them.

It's real-life that, being a very clear misogynist place in the first place, that helps fester the mindset that leads these people to think so little of women to begin with. If people were educated and not allowed to be sexist pigs in real life, they wouldn't be such on the internet as a result because the mindset to think it's ok to think of women as inferior and harm them wouldn't exist in the first place. Again, the internet is just a mirror of the real world, and sure, we can surely strive for harsher moderation and more strict internet rules (hopefully ones that won't go against rights for privacy and anonymity too which are crucial pillars of a free Internet), but this will never solve this in full.

The real world already hates women and do not trust them whenever they are reporting a rape/sexual assault. The laws and justice system are already not in our favor. Real life has been fostering most of online behaviors for the longest of times, it's just a natural evolution of it all to me, and it feeds to one another. This shit is all subparts of a the bigger battle.

Chopchop · Mar 12, 2020

Delphine said:
The way I see it, if one were to take actions in order to try and fix the fact the Internet is unwelcoming to women & girls, it would be the equivalent of putting a bandage on a wooden leg, if nothing is done in real life as well in equal measures. Sure, there are things that needs to be done to fix Internet-related specific problems, but it's much bigger than it, always has been, always will be. Just another symptom of the same tentacular disease called "patriarchy" to me.

These two problems are not mutually exclusive, and neither are their solutions. Harassment of women obviously happens both online and offline. Both are part of a bigger problem of systemic sexism, and need to be addressed at the same time.

But when the topic of the thread is specifically about online harassment, people are trying to talk about that particular topic (which is a facet of a bigger problem). Other people coming in and saying "as if real life harassment doesn't happen" detracts from the topic of online harassment, even though the subject of real-life harassment is a very real issue that does need to be discussed and addressed. But it should be discussed in another thread instead of by co-opting this thread's attempt at starting discussion about online harassment. Bringing up real life harassment in a topic about online harassment indirectly suppresses the people who are trying to talk about online harassment, which is why some users feel like they being talked over in the process.

Intentional or not, it creates the same effect as saying "but guys get harassed too" when anyone brings up harassment against women, or saying "all lives matter" when anyone says "black lives matter". Both statements are true, but bringing them up right when someone tries to bring a specific, different topic into discussion derails the conversation.

World Wide Web inventor Tim Berners-Lee says "internet is not working for women and girls"

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