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Where Does Your Loyalty Lie?

  • Kyrian

    Votes: 143 20.2%
  • Necrolords

    Votes: 127 17.9%
  • Night Fae

    Votes: 247 34.9%
  • Venthyr

    Votes: 191 27.0%

  • Total voters
    708
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HarryDemeanor

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,422
the-new-day-wwe.gif
Then it's time to #UpgradetheBeef
 

Wubby

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,849
Japan!
Maybe I paid too much but I just nabbed a Mimron's Head of the BMAH for 1.2 mil. Always wanted one and figure I can farm another 1.2 mil faster than it would take me to farm the mount on its own. I currently pull in around 200k a week just from the mission tables and exalted rep quests so it sets me back about 6 weeks.
 

FloBoJo

Member
Nov 5, 2017
214
Maybe I paid too much but I just nabbed a Mimron's Head of the BMAH for 1.2 mil. Always wanted one and figure I can farm another 1.2 mil faster than it would take me to farm the mount on its own. I currently pull in around 200k a week just from the mission tables and exalted rep quests so it sets me back about 6 weeks.
How many alts are you running through that??
 

HarryDemeanor

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,422
A lot of cool customization options. I just wish the visage form wasn't just Blood Elf-Human leftovers and had a new skeleton created.
 

Royalan

I can say DEI; you can't.
Moderator
Oct 24, 2017
11,919
5 bucks says that grayed out spot on the world map is...

Where the new World Tree gets planted.
 

Hixx

Member
Oct 25, 2017
828
fFPMCCm.jpeg


From WoWHead. This is what I thought was going to happen and was getting frustrated by people being well in on "well Alpha was like this before so it has to be like this every time". Yes that certainly could have been the case but a refusal to even think that things can go differently is so weird. Even Towelliee who had been privvy to info like this was parroting that mindset moments before the NDA lifted and that he thought a release this year was unlikely because of it.

Still gonna go with Nov 22nd.

Anyway away from me being a bit petty: Azure Span looks beautiful. It's very Northrend-y and that is right up my street. Be cool if the Dragon racing gets leaderboards too. I am a sucker for leaderboards.
 

ToTheMoon

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,321
whats up with the armor customization on the dracs? how will that work with...actual armor?

Dracthyr are limited in what armor slots they actually show while in Dragon form. Belts, tabards, shoulders, and weapons are all shown if I remember correctly, but most other slots aren't. Hence, you can fill those other areas with barbershop customizations and then pair them with the armor slots you do show.

It's a bit awkward, but I understand it from the perspective that they wanted to have Dracthyr be distinctly draconic and highly customizable, and making existing armor not look awkward would have required compromising their vision. Not to mention resculpting 18 years worth of helm models to fit their heads.
 
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Royalan

I can say DEI; you can't.
Moderator
Oct 24, 2017
11,919
Whew, some folks gonna be mad at this:

In terms of community feedback, one of the hot topics recently has been the return of the controversial ability Power Infusion on the priest talent tree. Are there any changes being planned to address some of the issues the community has with the ability, such how it impacts class balance?


I understand it's controversial, but at the same time, some of this gets back to the earlier discussion of party and raid buffs and our philosophy there with adding new ones. It is a cooperative MMO, where in the design space of "I can make my comrades, my allies stronger!" it seems like a viable support type role that should exist in an RPG setting. Internally, it's interesting–the team has coined this problem. There are two games being played in a raid group. There is game 1, which is the game that we built, which is beat the raid boss, clear the dungeon in the time limit. Then there's game 2, which players have largely created for themselves, which is win dps meters, beat my performance from last week, get a purple purse, get a gold parse, whatever else. We don't create that game. But many people are playing it, and it is almost the primary motivation for them. A question is–how sensitive should we be to that? How much should we be designing around that?

Because yes certainly, if we were making a game and the point of the game was maximize your score, maximize this number, it would be problematic to introduce elements into the game that are very random or skew outcomes one way or another. But that's also not the game that we have made. We have created a cooperative game that presents these challenges to be overcome. And so something in that environment like Power Infusion is a really interesting decision in a range of raid settings. Maybe on farm you sell it to the person with the best burst window–but when you're learning an encounter for the first time, it's more "what are the moments in the fight that are most challenging for us? Do we need to burst down this wave of adds before this next thing happens and who should we PI? Should we PI a healer because we need a throughput burst to make it through this thing? DPS isn't an issue, we're just trying to survive but we don't want to add an healer?" It's those sorts of decisions that are interesting group dynamics that we would hate to take away.

And game 2, so to speak, is also one where the rules in other places are shaped by the community. Like everyone at this point thinks nothing of the fact that log sites completely ignore padding. You can maximize your number by just damaging a number of bunch of extraneous adds in a fight that don't really serve the interest of the group. And doing that will make you have the biggest number and win meters, and the community has collectively decided this is unhealthy, we're not going to count or reward that behavior, just because you're multi-dotting all these adds that will die on their own…we're not going to count this damage at all. And that shapes player behavior there. To some extent, we want to focus on designing for the so-called game 1, and making that the best experience possible, and leave to the community and log sites and others to figure out the rules for how they want to determine who the best hunter is, who the best mage is etc on this fight.

But I agree.

At a certain point, Blizz can't balance for the game-within-the-game that some of the community is invested in. That just results in less interesting gameplay for everyone.

More fun abilities and interesting styles of play. Less worrying about players' Raid IO score.
 
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eathdemon

Member
Oct 27, 2017
9,621
Whew, some folks gonna be mad at this:



But I agree.

At a certain point, Blizz can't balance for the game-within-the-game that some of the community is invested in. That just results in less interesting gameplay for everyone.

More fun abilities and interesting styles of play. Less worrying about players' Raid IO score.
there would be less people mad if it were any other stat, but haste, haste is the one stat you cant attribute back to the person who gave it, so priests want to use it on themselves, so their logs look better.
 

Berordn

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 26, 2017
9,735
NoVA
i mean at some point you just have to accept that parses exist and there's nothing you can do about it without compromising your own vision for how the game should work

and i'm not even saying it's a good vision, but in their shoes i would probably be saying the same thing
 

ToTheMoon

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,321
there would be less people mad if it were any other stat, but haste, haste is the one stat you cant attribute back to the person who gave it, so priests want to use it on themselves, so their logs look better.

You can't attribute other stats back to the caster either. If PI gave crit, and the Priest casts that on a Fire Mage, that's going to give them more Heating Up procs for the duration, some of which will be converted into Pyroblasts, and at that point it's impossible to determine the alternate universe where the Mage didn't get PI. Mastery would have similar issues for many classes. Vers or Primary Stat is plausibly doable, but requires knowing exactly how those stats interact with every form of damage a player might deal, plus knowing the player's base amount of that stat at every given moment in a fight so that you can factor that out when trying to figure out the external buff's contribution. There's a lot of overhead there.

It's definitely true that some abilities can be attributed back to the caster (Blessing of Summer / Winter being the obvious ones, and WarcraftLogs does attempt to attribute those back to the Paladin). But buffs of "Your attacks deal X% more damage as a separate proc" is a really small design space. The idea that you can't have a basic "Give a player X% haste for Y seconds." buff in an RPG because of logs is kind of silly.

Plus, Ion's absolutely right that you could list dozens of other factors that majorly affect someone's parse beyond PI. If you're a high DPS group doing Anduin, then you'll have no trouble skipping the second intermission phase, but doing so will significantly lower your parse. Hence you're actually incentivized to do less damage in order to look better on the global rankings. For the Jailer, your DPS parse will look significantly better if you have multiple Death Knights holding Abomination Limb for the adds in the last phase, and your parse will look even better if you ask the rest of your group to do less AoE so that you can have a larger share of the pie. It's not hard to come up with factors like this for basically any fight of modern complexity, not to mention the constantly persistent factors like "How high is your Bloodlust uptime?", "How well did the fight duration align with your cooldowns?", "How on-point are your tanks?", "How much of the AoE pie does your group let you eat?", and "How was your RNG, both for mechanics and for crits / random procs?"

And this isn't even getting into the world of healing parses.

Parsing is a made up game for no reward, and it should stay that way because it's not a well designed game in the slightest. It's fine that it exists, but there's no positive future in a world where parse chasing ends up dictating WoW's core design as anything more than an afterthought.

EDIT: Just as one example to prove the point, this is the top DPS parse for Heroic Anduin. The fight duration is over twice as long as the fastest kill for Anduin, and the second-place Warlock casts Rain of Fire a mere 24 times (compared to the top Warlock's count of 47). Their goal was to clearly snatch the top parse for a single player, not to execute the fight in a way that was optimal or safe, and their methods for accomplishing that go way beyond just "stack PIs".

And on a second review, I just noticed that they had 8 players die on the pull, presumably because they're just there to inflate the enemy health and therefore let the parsers deal more damage in the add phase.
 
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B-Dubs

That's some catch, that catch-22
General Manager
Oct 25, 2017
32,721
Whew, some folks gonna be mad at this:



But I agree.

At a certain point, Blizz can't balance for the game-within-the-game that some of the community is invested in. That just results in less interesting gameplay for everyone.

More fun abilities and interesting styles of play. Less worrying about players' Raid IO score.
They're right tho
 

Jag

Member
Oct 26, 2017
11,669
whats up with the armor customization on the dracs? how will that work with...actual armor?

DeMephisto is spending a ton of time on customization in his Twitch channel right now. It's pretty wild and I normally don't care about this stuff. The big steamers are all streaming Alpha right now.
 

Cort

Member
Nov 4, 2017
4,351
Evoker is definitely a class designed with the Runeterra MMO in mind.

Because I'm almost certain that MMO will lean heavily in skillshots and what not.
 

Rhaknar

Member
Oct 26, 2017
42,425
btw, not that its shocking or anything (it's the same company) but did any HotS players notice Evoker spells share some assets with the (dead) moba?

the rectangle targeting reticle for those fly by moves looks exactly like the targeting reticle of Raynor's ult, and the earth sunder effect from said fly by move (the offensive one) looks almost identical to the graphics from Thrall's sunder ult:

heroes-18.jpg


just thought it was neat.
 

Jag

Member
Oct 26, 2017
11,669
Zones look way too familiar to me. We've been in these a hundred times it feels like. Boo

Yeah. Not getting that new expansion excitement. Maybe it's just a combination of the games age, the recycling of assets and shadowlands mediocrity starting to make things feel repetitive.
 

Royalan

I can say DEI; you can't.
Moderator
Oct 24, 2017
11,919
I actually like what I've seen of the Azure Highlands so far. I like how big it is.
 

Cass_Se

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,123
I think at this stage zones looking samey is something that can't be avoided, even with Shadowlands a lot of it was familiar. Broken Isles were basically entirely greatest hits collection and Legion was an amazing expansion in spite of that, so it all depends on the execution
 

Anoregon

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,023
The landmasses of Kuresh and Ind are there, but not traversable yet...
I still don't think that those factions will happen but this map makes it more likely.

Zones look way too familiar to me. We've been in these a hundred times it feels like. Boo

Yeah. Not getting that new expansion excitement. Maybe it's just a combination of the games age, the recycling of assets and shadowlands mediocrity starting to make things feel repetitive.

I mean, a lot of fans wanted that. They felt the Shadowlands zones were too alien and wanted something a bit more familiar.

Yeah, alot of people are specifically happy that the zones look like a return to Azeroth (or really any actual planet) after Shadowlands, and I'm inclined to feel the same way. We are also at the point where pretty much any specific biome has been done already, usually multiple times, so there really isn't a whole lot left they can do when it comes to making a zone feel completely new/different while also having its design actually make sense as a livable area of the planet. Azure Span seems like a good example of taking familiar environments (it is very Northrend) and sort of remixing/combining them into something a bit different.

People in general really want to just feel like the are in Azeroth again, and that's going to require familiarity.
 

Noppie

Member
Oct 27, 2017
13,762
It being 'samey' is very much the goal. That extends beyond the biomes. Dragons returning, Gnolls returning, Tuskarr returning. The entire expansion is supposed to be a 'return to Azeroth' type of deal. Need familiarity for that.

I just care that it all looks good, which is does. The zones so far look pretty, the updated models are very nice. Surely we'll see some 'out there' kinda stuff, but for starters I'm happy it's, well, familiar.
 

Finaj

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,356
It's really cool to see... I just wish a lot of the WoW community wasn't arguing over it.
 

Cort

Member
Nov 4, 2017
4,351
I really like the idea of a Reagent Bag but I wish we could just extend the amount of space in the reagent bank.

The player just needs more bags. More space in general. This game is now 18 years old and the bank hasn't increased in size since WoD with the addition of the reagent bank.

What I think they should do is add a bag for current expansion junk (last expansion i swam in spare parts and shit, this expansion im swimming in protoform synthesis crap), and maybe look to see what advancements can be made regarding void storage.
 

Shahadan

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,967
I mean, a lot of fans wanted that. They felt the Shadowlands zones were too alien and wanted something a bit more familiar.
Magical forest 23 and Undeadzone 26 sure felt different /s

But from what I've seen of streamers getting past restrictions, there's yet another green forest with ugly green sky, another black dragony fire wasteland, etc...
Well I guess I'm sick of dragon zones, and since they always overlap with most wracraft lore, this is a fuck lot of zones at this point.

I felt like half of Pandaria felt distinct yet still warcraft. This is just ANOTHER "greatest hits" and not the first time we get that either. Bleh.
We're just playing the same expansion over and over. It's just missing a 7th world tree.

Saying that this is what people wanted just make me think we're all creatively bankrupt even in our thinking.
Edit: Although I guess they had to release this one fast, and since art is always something that takes a while, I kinda get it
 

dalq

Member
Feb 13, 2018
1,097
Maybe I paid too much but I just nabbed a Mimron's Head of the BMAH for 1.2 mil. Always wanted one and figure I can farm another 1.2 mil faster than it would take me to farm the mount on its own. I currently pull in around 200k a week just from the mission tables and exalted rep quests so it sets me back about 6 weeks.
any chance of you having a link for a guide or something for the mission table? I thought it was pretty much useless in its SL incarnation.
 

Berordn

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 26, 2017
9,735
NoVA
I felt like half of Pandaria felt distinct yet still warcraft. This is just ANOTHER "greatest hits" and not the first time we get that either. Bleh.
We're just playing the same expansion over and over. It's just missing a 7th world tree.
i mean i love pandaria but pretending that half the continent wasn't "forest" or "mountain" or "evil forest" is kinda disingenuous. there was a ton of new architecture that helped it stand out sure, but that's there in dragonflight too

it's easy to be real reductive about these zones because frankly, every expansion falls into this trap.
 

tinthoh

Member
Jan 13, 2018
962
I think I'm going to give WoW another try with the next expansion. Last time I dropped it during the early phase of Warlords of Dreanor and played for one or two weeks during Legion. I played some other MMO's for a short while but nothing really clicked with me. I tried FF14 two or three times but it just feels like a slog to play with the slow combat and didn't progress really far.
I just want to sink some hours into a MMO again.
 

Shahadan

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,967
i mean i love pandaria but pretending that half the continent wasn't "forest" or "mountain" or "evil forest" is kinda disingenuous. there was a ton of new architecture that helped it stand out sure, but that's there in dragonflight too

it's easy to be real reductive about these zones because frankly, every expansion falls into this trap.
I should not have to state the obvious but here we go : "Forest" or "Mountain" is not inherently samey. Jade Forest had lots of verticality (for once) on top of the chinese inspiration, the Valley of the Four Winds was a great spin on a typical valley zone, even the Vale while empty was a cool setting. Dread Wastes and stuff were meh

Warlords had a few, Shadowmoon valley looked great and almost unique, Gorgrond as well and even Spires even if I hate it.

Suramar was a great take on the thousand times seen elves zone as well

So far I haven't seen that in DF and it's the most "best of" compilation but they often pull that in one or two zones almost every xpac. I'm sure that's the point btw, I just don't like wondering on stream if the guy is playing an old zone or a new one because at some points I legit wasn't sure immediately. =/

The worst thing to me is that once again they're playing the "island lost for thousands of years" angle and it just looks like life began two days before you got there. Pandaria was a big offender on that front sadly but here it looks a bit worse.
 

Berordn

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 26, 2017
9,735
NoVA
I should not have to state the obvious but here we go : "Forest" or "Mountain" is not inherently samey. Jade Forest had lots of verticality (for once) on top of the chinese inspiration, the Valley of the Four Winds was a great spin on a typical valley zone, even the Vale while empty was a cool setting. Dread Wastes and stuff were meh

Warlords had a few, Shadowmoon valley looked great and almost unique, Gorgrond as well and even Spires even if I hate it.

Suramar was a great take on the thousand times seen elves zone as well

So far I haven't seen that in DF and it's the most "best of" compilation but they often pull that in one or two zones almost every xpac. I'm sure that's the point btw, I just don't like wondering on stream if the guy is playing an old zone or a new one because at some points I legit wasn't sure immediately. =/

The worst thing to me is that once again they're playing the "island lost for thousands of years" angle and it just looks like life began two days before you got there. Pandaria was a big offender on that front sadly but here it looks a bit worse.
pandaria was incredibly samey though? like, you can just as easily take videos of it out of context where it does look like any typical grassland or forest or swamp or tundra. like, you want to talk about how jade forest made use of verticality but nothing in wow has ever really looked like THIS, where you actually have points of interest carved into the actual walls of the environment and above other set pieces:
FXk3nPVXwAQxw9c


like, dragonflight has some legitimately great looking spots that i haven't seen on-stream yet so it's hard to take complaints about it looking samey too seriously. like, these setpieces don't look like they come directly from anything we've seen before and that's just fine
FXtfkqXVEAEwFWe

we've got a bunch of shots of unique stuff alongside the elements that are clearly meant to callback to wrath, and that's fine. it's clearly paying homage but to pretend like it's way out of line of previous azeroth-centric expansions just feels like you're being reductive
 
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