Without DLSS, Should devs really be chasing Ray Tracing on consoles?

[Sems4arsenal]

We're in a period now that we've seen glimpses of next generation games, and the buzzword seems to be Ray tracing.

While path tracing for lighting seems unlikely at this moment, we've seen devs use Ray traced reflections (GT7, Stray, Spiderman MM, etc.) and some used RT-ed shadows, IIRC.

The thing is, it's impressive tech by all means, but one can't help but feel that it simply isn't worth the performance cost.

Maybe in the future, devs will optimize the tech to be viable, but seeing Watchdogs legion for example -- it mostly looked like a current gen game (albeit a very good looking current gen) but the cars, and windows reflect stuff better.

It doesn't seem worth it at all to me, but then again, it's the dev's choice.

 

[Lashley]

Probably not, no

 

[JeffGubb]

Consoles will have their own tricks that get similar performance benefits as DLSS. Microsoft can totally do its own machine-learning super sampling if it wants. But they're also just going to have to use ray-tracing sparingly.

 

[zma1013]

It could look very nice in indie type games that otherwise dont push hard in other graphical areas. Think Journey, but now with raytracing.

 

[bing]

Microsoft has its own DirectML solution with its AMD hardware in the Series X. I'm not aware of Sony implementing anything similar in the PS5. I was shocked by how well DLSS 2.0 ran on even base RTX 2060s.

 

[Playboi Carti]

RT on consoles will be much more efficient than the current Turing brute-force implementations.

 

[Duxxy3]

I'm sure they'll come up with some tricks to make it possible. Native 4k with ray tracing is likely just a pipe dream though.

 

[Savinowned]

Yeah, I'd honestly rather have all the resources pumped into better image quality or frame rate.

 

[Gero]

No. I can already see the sub 30 frames because they will chase high ress and stupid RT sigh

 

[scabobbs]

Was watching the Digital Foundry video on Watchdogs Legions implementations of RT and how they limited it to work at 1080p/Ultra on a 2080ti... I have such a difficult time understanding how this will all work on consoles.

 

[Video Games Are Dumb]

it mostly looked like a current gen game (albeit a very good looking current gen) but the cars, and windows reflect stuff better.

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I'm not saying you're wrong because you're not wrong.

BUT I feel this has been the story for awhile. When new consoles arrive, people wring their hands over underwhelming results and by the end it's obviously better

These new consoles and their use of ray tracing will be transformative by 2023. Let the devs play a bit, we're gonna see some cool shit.

 

[Klokwerk]

Ray tracing is not worth it at all on any platform, PC included. It's the latest buzzword from Nvidia to sell overpriced cards to PC idiots race. It was basically impossible to make the whales pay $1000 or $1500 a new graphics card without some kind of justification. RTX is that, a giant waste of GPU power.

In the real world, you have tons of options to get nearly the same lighting results while paying a lot less in GPU power. But then, how do you get the money from PC whales ?

 

[dep9000]

I'm really ignorant, but I didn't realize the XSX and PS5 won't have DLSS. Of course they won't! Silly me. That seems like a huge missed opportunity, but of course nothing they can do. AMD doesn't have anything similar, huh?

Only hope is that Switch 2 will have it.

 

[TronLight]

DLSS is not the only reconstruction technique that exists. I'm sure we'll see high quality reconstruction on console too, better than this gen.

 

[Xando]

Consoles will have their own tricks that get similar performance benefits as DLSS. Microsoft can totally do its own machine-learning super sampling if it wants. But they're also just going to have to use ray-tracing sparingly.

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Sure they can but they don't have dedicated hardware like DLSS2.0 so you're always using resources that could be used somewhere else.

 

[Noema]

I just want beautiful shiny ray traced reflections on my Fluted Armor helmet in Demon's Souls, so that I can stare at them for a minute before I take the whole armor off so I'm not fat rolling everywhere.

 

[Laiza]

RT on consoles will be much more efficient than the current Turing brute-force implementations.

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Brute force implementations? Sounds like someone hasn't been paying attention to how these things actually get implemented, or how expensive a real brute force implementation actually would be.

 

[Sems4arsenal]

Consoles will have their own tricks that get similar performance benefits as DLSS. Microsoft can totally do its own machine-learning super sampling if it wants. But they're also just going to have to use ray-tracing sparingly.

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This would be huge, but doesn't DLSS require tensor cores?

If a purely software solution can replicate (or even come close) then this will be a massive benefit.

 

[VariantX]

Does AMD have an DLSS equivelant on pc now or one in the works that might be available on the upcoming consoles?? I'd take DLSS any day over raytracing if theres no mechanics tied to it. DLSS is probably the one thing that truly excites me.

 

[TronLight]

Ray tracing is not worth it at all on any platform, PC included. It's the latest buzzword from Nvidia to sell overpriced cards to PC idiots race. It was basically impossible to make the whales pay $1000 or $1500 a new graphics card without some kind of justification. RTX is that, a giant waste of GPU power.

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Is it 2017 again?

In the real world, you have tons of options to get nearly the same lighting results while paying a lot less in GPU power. But then, how do you get the money from PC whales ?

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You have pretty much no way to get reflections as good as ray-traced ones without re-rendering the scene again. For general lightning, you're not completely wrong, but reflections are the thing that rasterization kinda just can't get right.

 

[MajesticSoup]

Sure they can but they don't have dedicated hardware like DLSS2.0 so you're always using resources that could be used somewhere else.

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Remember that DLSS 1.9 didnt use tensor cores at all, and gets about 15% better framerate compared to DLSS 2.0.. Of course DLSS 2.0 looks better than 1.9.
It'll be interesting to see what upscaling techniques they come up with on console.

 

[Klokwerk]

Was watching the Digital Foundry video on Watchdogs Legions implementations of RT and how they limited it to work at 1080p/Ultra on a 2080ti... I have such a difficult time understanding how this will all work on consoles.

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Watchdogs Legion looks like dogshit compared to the best console games, so nothing justifies it would run at 1080p on a 2080Ti PC lol

You just have to remove RT and enjoy your 4K 60+ fps average looking game. Nothing in those graphics justifies the tradeoff.

 

[Dictator]

In the real world, you have tons of options to get nearly the same lighting results while paying a lot less in GPU power. But then, how do you get the money from PC whales ?

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You may want to ask a real graphics programmer, lighting designer, game designer, or even just a photographer how the lighting achieved now in games is not "nearly the same". There is a large gap between the two.

It is not a gimmick - it is the future of how video games will be made.

Was watching the Digital Foundry video on Watchdogs Legions implementations of RT and how they limited it to work at 1080p/Ultra on a 2080ti... I have such a difficult time understanding how this will all work on consoles.

Click to shrink...

That was with the highest game settings that are at all possible, including the Ultra ray traced reflections option. There are lower quality ray tracing settings. If Watch Dogs Legion is like Watch Dogs 2, then there are settings at the Highest Level on Ultra which barely make the game look better, but have a massive impact on performance - unlike RT which will effect nearly every surface in the game.

 

[Lashley]

Ray tracing is not worth it at all on any platform, PC included. It's the latest buzzword from Nvidia to sell overpriced cards to PC idiots race. It was basically impossible to make the whales pay $1000 or $1500 a new graphics card without some kind of justification. RTX is that, a giant waste of GPU power.

In the real world, you have tons of options to get nearly the same lighting results while paying a lot less in GPU power. But then, how do you get the money from PC whales ?

Click to shrink...

The fuck did I just read?

 

[RedHeat]

Unless AMD gets something similar to DLSS than can also work on the upcoming consoles I don't see it happening at all

 

[Finaika]

No, ray tracing should be a PC exclusive.

 

[Niks]

Ray tracing is not worth it at all on any platform, PC included. It's the latest buzzword from Nvidia to sell overpriced cards to PC idiots race. It was basically impossible to make the whales pay $1000 or $1500 a new graphics card without some kind of justification. RTX is that, a giant waste of GPU power.

In the real world, you have tons of options to get nearly the same lighting results while paying a lot less in GPU power. But then, how do you get the money from PC whales ?

Click to shrink...

Ray tracing is without any shadow of a doubt, the future. To say otherwise is pretty ignorant.

HOWEVER, if its worth it for current next gen console hardware is up for debate.

 

[J-Skee]

Can someone explain to me how Naughty Dog achieved the level of reflections they have in the Last of Us Part II? If it was in the Digital Foundry video, I missed it or didn't completely understand it.

 

[Klokwerk]

You have pretty much no way to get reflections as good as ray-traced ones without re-rendering the scene again. For general lightning, you're not completely wrong, but reflections are the thing that rasterization kinda just can't get right.

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My point is it's not worth it at all. The GPU power cost is gigantic compared to the small gain in lighting. It's just stupid at this point. You pay $1500 for a nice looking puddle sometimes, it's just ridiculous.

 

[Xx 720]

That watch dogs is open world with ray traced reflections and looks nice. Gran Turismos reflections look amazing and that's at 60fps, and that's an early gen title, just imagine in a few years how good it will get. Having said that, I'd be willing to be we get another mid gen refresh eventually that offers better rt

 

[Lashley]

My point is it's not worth it at all. The GPU power cost is gigantic compared to the small gain in lighting. It's just stupid at this point. You pay $1500 for a nice looking puddle sometimes, it's just ridiculous.

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Aight, it's obvious you have no idea what you're talking about

 

[Sems4arsenal]

You may want to ask a real graphics programmer, lighting designer, game designer, or even just a photographer how the lighting achieved now in games is not "nearly the same". There is a large gap between the two.

It is not a gimmick - it is the future of how video games will be made.


That was with the highest game settings that are at all possible, including the Ultra ray traced reflections option. There are lower quality ray tracing settings. If Watch Dogs Legion is like Watch Dogs 2, then there are settings at the Highest Level on Ultra which barely make the game look better, but have a massive impact on performance - unlike RT which will effect nearly every surface in the game.

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Can you elaborate on this?

Is it because RT lighting gets better results faster? Or is it because bounce lighting is more accurate.

Geniuenly curious.

 

[Mcfrank]

Can someone explain to me how Naughty Dog achieved the level of reflections they have in the Last of Us Part II? If it was in the Digital Foundry video, I missed it.

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They called them screen space reflections.

 

[dobahking91]

Ray tracing is not worth it at all on any platform, PC included. It's the latest buzzword from Nvidia to sell overpriced cards to PC idiots race. It was basically impossible to make the whales pay $1000 or $1500 a new graphics card without some kind of justification. RTX is that, a giant waste of GPU power.

In the real world, you have tons of options to get nearly the same lighting results while paying a lot less in GPU power. But then, how do you get the money from PC whales ?

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This.

It's annoying that devs are wasting their GPU budget on RTX.

 

[Klokwerk]

Ray tracing is without any shadow of a doubt, the future. To say otherwise is pretty ignorant.

HOWEVER, if its worth it for current next gen console hardware is up for debate.

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I don't say it may not be the future, I don't care, I say NOW it's just dumb, the power is not there and you're paying far too much money for basically nothing on screen. Then again, that's the way Nvidia works, so I guess they found their business model.

 

[MrKlaw]

- we don't know how performant ray tracing is on AMD yet.
- consoles have had decent reconstruction techniques for several years now and I'd expect that to develop further on next gen
- Devs will likely also experiment with custom applications of RT. I hope to see interesting developments in denoising and generally efficiencies to make the most of the available RT compute performance

 

[SunBroDave]

I'm sure they'll come up with some tricks to make it possible. Native 4k with ray tracing is likely just a pipe dream though.

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.

 

[TronLight]

My point is it's not worth it at all. The GPU power cost is gigantic compared to the small gain in lighting. It's just stupid at this point. You pay $1500 for a nice looking puddle sometimes, it's just ridiculous.

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Eh, don't count other people's money. They pay the early access tax, enjoy the bleeding egde, and eventually you'll have GPU with ray-tracing at an affordable price. That's how it works.

 

[LightKiosk]

Sure they can but they don't have dedicated hardware like DLSS2.0 so you're always using resources that could be used somewhere else.

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Considering we don't know anything about RDNA2 GPUs, is there anything that's been announced saying this?

 

[tacocat]

Ray tracing is not worth it at all on any platform, PC included. It's the latest buzzword from Nvidia to sell overpriced cards to PC idiots race. It was basically impossible to make the whales pay $1000 or $1500 a new graphics card without some kind of justification. RTX is that, a giant waste of GPU power.

In the real world, you have tons of options to get nearly the same lighting results while paying a lot less in GPU power. But then, how do you get the money from PC whales ?

Click to shrink...

Ray tracing is not a buzzword. We have been chasing a real-time implementation ever since I have known what computer graphics were. Ray tracing is here to stay and its going to get better every year.

 

[Playboi Carti]

Brute force implementations? Sounds like someone hasn't been paying attention to how these things actually get implemented, or how expensive a real brute force implementation actually would be.

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Yeah, the brute force approach that we see on first gen RTX compared to the much better hybrid RT software that we'll see on next-gen consoles.

 

[DopeyFish]

whenever you play a full scene RT title, you'll never want to go back. not sure why people are suggesting RT is bad.

 

[zma1013]

Can someone explain to me how Naughty Dog achieved the level of reflections they have in the Last of Us Part II? If it was in the Digital Foundry video, I missed it or didn't completely understand it.

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They called them screen space reflections.

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It's a clever mix of screen space and environment specific cube maps matched up really well so that when the screen space reflections get obscured and disappear the cube map takes its place.

 

[elyetis]

Aight, it's obvious you have no idea what you're talking about

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I can understand how people would prefer other bells and whistles and/or more fps rather than ray tracing reflexion only.

I don't get how people still downplay Global illumination a la Exodus on the other hand.

 

[Noema]

Can someone explain to me how Naughty Dog achieved the level of reflections they have in the Last of Us Part II? If it was in the Digital Foundry video, I missed it or didn't completely understand it.

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Screen Space reflections, combined with talented artists and clever use of cube maps.

It's a pretty good technique since it's relatively 'cheap' compared to more sophisticated forms of creating reflections, though it comes with caveats like reflections being much lower resolution (usually a quarter or less of whatever is being reflected).

 

[MrKlaw]

Can someone explain to me how Naughty Dog achieved the level of reflections they have in the Last of Us Part II? If it was in the Digital Foundry video, I missed it or didn't completely understand it.

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They were great, weren't they? DF talked about it - mix of SSR, then blended into cube/reflection maps at more acute angles when the SSR would start to break down.

In the best cases its almost seamless unless you're really looking for it, and you can see reflections of things not on screen. But sometimes the environment baked into the reflection will be lower res, or slightly off alignment and then it is more noticable.

But considering thats on a PS4, I'd totally take an adaptation of that in specific areas where full RT isn't completely necessary. Free up some of that performance to put where you need it more.

 

[7thFloor]

Ray tracing is not worth it at all on any platform, PC included. It's the latest buzzword from Nvidia to sell overpriced cards to PC idiots race. It was basically impossible to make the whales pay $1000 or $1500 a new graphics card without some kind of justification. RTX is that, a giant waste of GPU power.

In the real world, you have tons of options to get nearly the same lighting results while paying a lot less in GPU power. But then, how do you get the money from PC whales ?

Click to shrink...

Ray tracing is not a buzzword. We have been chasing a real-time implementation ever since I have known what computer graphics were. Ray tracing is here to stay and its going to get better every year.

Click to shrink...

 

[Vinx]

Remember that DLSS 1.9 didnt use tensor cores at all, and gets about 15% better framerate compared to DLSS 2.0.. Of course DLSS 2.0 looks better than 1.9.
It'll be interesting to see what upscaling techniques they come up with on console.

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Yeah, but DLSS 1.9 looked terrible, had to be "trained" by the devs ahead of time, gave DLSS a bad name and thats why they moved DLSS to the Tensor cores with 2.0.

So, why would the consoles want to replicate that?

 

[dgrdsv]

There is no inherent performance cost to ray tracing. You can use it in such ways which won't hit performance more than what it will substitute visually.

 

[Metalsnakezero]

My experience with ray tracing in games is from Control on PC. Having natural reflections makes a already visually appealing game pop out more. The down side is that it drops the frame rate from solid 60 to solid 30. If the next consoles are going to hit 4k 60 ray tracing will be a hindrance in that path unless they have a technique that allows them to have tracing. I bet it'll be a option similar to her in current games.