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With the Zero Legacy collection upon us post your control scheme
- Thread starter PadWarrior
- Start date
Giga boots recommended the collection. They didn't say, "I recommend the X games because they are great but skip the collections." No they recommended the collections. That means conditions and all they must not have felt it was severe enough to impact your enjoyment. Great games are ruined by technical issues, go talk to anyone who bought the pc version of Arkham Knight, no one was recommending that despite the game being good. You are trying to split hairs and it's bullshit my friend.
As far as being the worst way to experience them. That boils down to preference. For me having all the games in a convenient hd friendly package that I can easily play on all my modern hardware makes them the best way to enjoy them. For others, maybe it's on a crt tv on original hardware. Some might even prefer the tiny handheld ds ports. It's irrelevant how you feel the best way to play them is because it's a matter of what you value and that is purely subjective.
Fact is, the collections are good and the graph is worthless in determining whether or not you will enjoy the collection.
Oh. Realize I never touched on the topic.
Y Slash.
R Shoot.
L Dash.
B Jump.
I don't think there's a lot of crazy alternate control layouts out there. Mega Man 11 can get crazy because god that game has buttons mapped to everything, but Zero/ZX are simple enough input-wise.
www.youtube.com
So no, posting that chart to dunk on how bad the SNES games are in the Legacy Collection is absolutely valid because there's no reason to assume that the guy's opinion towards the SNES games and their latency's changed. All that second video adds to the discussion is that the PS1/PS2 emulation jobs are actually good which I don't think anyone disagrees with.
Y Slash.
R Shoot.
L Dash.
B Jump.
I don't think there's a lot of crazy alternate control layouts out there. Mega Man 11 can get crazy because god that game has buttons mapped to everything, but Zero/ZX are simple enough input-wise.
Except in the original video he did on X1 (And assuming his findings echo all the way through to X3 because he never revisits the SNES series past X1 in either video), he talks about how the 8 frame input latency is terrible, invites an unflattering comparison to Killzone 2, wonders if it's because this is a large scale emulation project that X1 is as bad as it is but then points to Street Fighter 30th Anniversary Edition and the original Mega Man X Anniversary Collection as examples that have about half of the input latency, before going on to recommend buying the Mega Man X Legacy Collection because he recognizes Capcom's brand of market research when he sees it and says hey, if you want Mega Man X9 to get the talent and budget it should, buy it anyway.
Mega Man X Legacy Collection X1 Input Lag Tests & Comparisons (Button2pixel)
The new & final video on the XLC Input Lag is out and it includes every platform and tons of retro collection versions: https://youtu.be/EvZkty_FQHAThe X Leg...
www.youtube.com
So no, posting that chart to dunk on how bad the SNES games are in the Legacy Collection is absolutely valid because there's no reason to assume that the guy's opinion towards the SNES games and their latency's changed. All that second video adds to the discussion is that the PS1/PS2 emulation jobs are actually good which I don't think anyone disagrees with.
I always do:
Main Weapon R
Sub Weapon L
Dash A
Jump B
It makes it closer to MMX in which I can dash jump very easily and use my primary weapon while doing so.
Main Weapon R
Sub Weapon L
Dash A
Jump B
It makes it closer to MMX in which I can dash jump very easily and use my primary weapon while doing so.
Oh well then. Still stand by my original point that the graphs look worse than the games feel. We are running on assumptions at this point of what a random guy feels about X2 and X3 as well. This conversation has strayed far enough away from the original intent of the thread and I'm done talking about giga boots. If people want to shit on the X Legacy Collections at this point, have at it. I still fully recommend them. The controversy is overblown. Try them yourselves.
Yes I have all the trophies from X1 but had to stop playing X2 due to the lag frustrating me to no end and jumped to X4
I've been playing the collection for a few weeks now on Switch, you can find my GX preview here as well as a preview discussion with prolific Mega Man YouTuber ShadowRockZX here. With that said...
To set the record straight, I didn't say I'm not sensitive to input lag at all. I absolutely do perceive it when it's bad, such as when playing Smash Ultimate online with people who have bad connections, or when playing rhythm games or some retro games on an unfriendly 4K TV. That said, some people like to act as though the classic and X Legacy Collections were downright unplayable due to horrific input lag and I absolutely disagree with that, at least in my experience with my setup. I reviewed both collections highly (except for X Legacy Collection 2 because of the included games ranging from decent to ass) and I stand by what I said in my reviews about them being great ways to play MM 1-10 and X-X8 today, and on the whole it would seem folks largely agree with that assessment if other critic and player reviews are anything to go by.
Now, as for Zero/ZX Collection: if there is any input lag, it's so minor that it's virtually meaningless, both on my 1080p LED with a Pro Controller and on handheld mode. I don't have any equipment with which to test the actual latency Digital Foundry style, so I can't back this up with numbers or anything, but just like with the classic and X collections, I have played all of these games many times over the years as a hardcore Mega Man fan (with the exception of ZX and ZXA, which I've only played about three times each) and to me they play just as well as they always have. I haven't yet taken a death in this collection due to input lag or other control issues, and for as much time as I've spent with it now during the preview phase, I don't expect to.
Does that mean your mileage won't vary? No, we're all different, but I know very, very well how these games are supposed to feel and play and Zero/ZX Legacy Collection doesn't feel compromised at all in those respects.
TL;DR - Based on my preview time with the Zero/ZX Legacy Collection (a few weeks now), I'm confident in saying that any input lag in this collection, if it exists, is minimal at best and does not adversely affect the gameplay experience at least for my setup (which, again, is a high-end Samsung 1080p LED, not a 4K display). This also goes for handheld mode, and applies across every title. I know this won't convince the usual "Classic and X Legacy Collections are trash" crowd, but hopefully this helps reassure the rest of you at least a little.
They don't, and as I noted in my preview and in my discussion with SRZX, this represents one of my few problems with the collection so far, but it's hardly unique as the X Legacy Collections didn't allow for mapping functions to ZL or ZR either. It's a shame and feels like it should be an easy thing to implement, but it didn't take me long to start feeling comfortable using L and R for these games (though yes, I would always prefer to use ZL and ZR).
Well said. These takes are right on the money. :)
Man, I was also beginning to think I was the only one! I'm an R dasher too. I used to be a religious command dasher (tapping forward twice) when I was younger until a friend at the time finally convinced me to sit down and try replaying X1 with dash on R. Suffice to say, I switched instantly and never looked back. Felt like a whole new world had opened up. Today, I can't imagine not using R to dash. So for me, it's:
B ("Cross") - Jump
Y (Square) - Primary weapon
L (L1) - Sub weapon
R (R1) - Dash
And for ZX/ZXA-specific functions:
A (Circle) - Overdrive
X (Triangle) - Megamerge / A-Trans
To set the record straight, I didn't say I'm not sensitive to input lag at all. I absolutely do perceive it when it's bad, such as when playing Smash Ultimate online with people who have bad connections, or when playing rhythm games or some retro games on an unfriendly 4K TV. That said, some people like to act as though the classic and X Legacy Collections were downright unplayable due to horrific input lag and I absolutely disagree with that, at least in my experience with my setup. I reviewed both collections highly (except for X Legacy Collection 2 because of the included games ranging from decent to ass) and I stand by what I said in my reviews about them being great ways to play MM 1-10 and X-X8 today, and on the whole it would seem folks largely agree with that assessment if other critic and player reviews are anything to go by.
Now, as for Zero/ZX Collection: if there is any input lag, it's so minor that it's virtually meaningless, both on my 1080p LED with a Pro Controller and on handheld mode. I don't have any equipment with which to test the actual latency Digital Foundry style, so I can't back this up with numbers or anything, but just like with the classic and X collections, I have played all of these games many times over the years as a hardcore Mega Man fan (with the exception of ZX and ZXA, which I've only played about three times each) and to me they play just as well as they always have. I haven't yet taken a death in this collection due to input lag or other control issues, and for as much time as I've spent with it now during the preview phase, I don't expect to.
Does that mean your mileage won't vary? No, we're all different, but I know very, very well how these games are supposed to feel and play and Zero/ZX Legacy Collection doesn't feel compromised at all in those respects.
TL;DR - Based on my preview time with the Zero/ZX Legacy Collection (a few weeks now), I'm confident in saying that any input lag in this collection, if it exists, is minimal at best and does not adversely affect the gameplay experience at least for my setup (which, again, is a high-end Samsung 1080p LED, not a 4K display). This also goes for handheld mode, and applies across every title. I know this won't convince the usual "Classic and X Legacy Collections are trash" crowd, but hopefully this helps reassure the rest of you at least a little.
They don't, and as I noted in my preview and in my discussion with SRZX, this represents one of my few problems with the collection so far, but it's hardly unique as the X Legacy Collections didn't allow for mapping functions to ZL or ZR either. It's a shame and feels like it should be an easy thing to implement, but it didn't take me long to start feeling comfortable using L and R for these games (though yes, I would always prefer to use ZL and ZR).
Well said. These takes are right on the money. :)
Man, I was also beginning to think I was the only one! I'm an R dasher too. I used to be a religious command dasher (tapping forward twice) when I was younger until a friend at the time finally convinced me to sit down and try replaying X1 with dash on R. Suffice to say, I switched instantly and never looked back. Felt like a whole new world had opened up. Today, I can't imagine not using R to dash. So for me, it's:
B ("Cross") - Jump
Y (Square) - Primary weapon
L (L1) - Sub weapon
R (R1) - Dash
And for ZX/ZXA-specific functions:
A (Circle) - Overdrive
X (Triangle) - Megamerge / A-Trans
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Only played them at launch and never touched X1-X3 ever again. Can play them on Emulator or the SNES Classic.
Another R dasher here. R is the way you go most of the time. I can see some case for having all movement on one hand and all weapons on another, but I find it easier to keep my L button charging while moving.
I could have sworn there was a topic on here a few months back around the time the game was announced where the lag was addressed by someone. Something about the games not being emulated because the original source code was used being the reason why it wasn't an issue.
Thanks, it got a bit heated in here we went off topic quite a bit, but I think it's a fair take. I won't deny that there is some additional input lag, but I'm also not going to act like it hurt my experience in any meaningful way and I'm someone who grew up on the SNES trilogy which is supposedly so bad it's unplayable according to some. I can't even imagine how many newcomers have been scared off by the hyperbole surrounding these collections and that's what hurts me the most. The X Collections are a great way to relive these games and an excellent entry point in to the series. Only a minority of people will find fault with them but that hasn't stopped everyone else from being afraid to give them a chance. Talk about hurting the thing you claim to love.
Sorry, off topic again. I'm an A dasher op. I wish I wasn't but every time I have switch it I play so much worse. Claw grip for life I guess, though I have got better at managing where my thumb applies pressure so it can always handle two buttons, sometimes three, simultaneously.
I'm an R dasher all the god damn way
Do we know what the trophies/achievements are going to look like yet? It's a weird one because they're all long enough to have their own lists/platinums but I doubt Capcom will go for that sadly
Do we know what the trophies/achievements are going to look like yet? It's a weird one because they're all long enough to have their own lists/platinums but I doubt Capcom will go for that sadly
The Classic ones didn't even have a platinum and both X Collections did. I'm guessing there will be one for the Zero/ZX Collection. Hoping there are S Rank completion trophies.
X collection was like this, it was one of my only complaints about it.
In regards to the input lag debate, I've played the first 3 X's in every way possible and the lag was noticible but hardly a detrement. I'm good enough at the games that I could adjust on the fly without issues.
Yeah the X Collection ones were weird as hell (and also X1-3 were abusable super quickly with passwords lol). It's gonna be brutal if they split one platinum over six longer games.
...now imagine that with Battle Network
Nah, I'll probably map it to RB, which is how I did with Cuphead. I haven't tried L/LB dash, though I can't imagine it being comfortable or natural for me.
It's almost like different people have different tolerance to input lag and one person's unplayable is another person's "I didn't feel anything."
We'd all do well to stop trying to dismiss the fact that the input lag in these games is factual and does exist, and also that some people don't mind and others do.
I think MMX1 is unplayable on switch. Somebody saying, "Nah, it's perfectly playable" isn't a counter to my opinion.
We'd all do well to stop trying to dismiss the fact that the input lag in these games is factual and does exist, and also that some people don't mind and others do.
I think MMX1 is unplayable on switch. Somebody saying, "Nah, it's perfectly playable" isn't a counter to my opinion.
This is actually the correct take.
R stops being dash when there's a better offensive action to map on that side of the controller. Left side's for mobility. Right side's for shoot-slash-bang-bang.
I've always done L. R feels so awkward.
Exactly. Left for movement and right for action.
With my real SNES pad and blister board. This has been my habit this gen with hd retro ports. I buy the game again to support the companies and then i play it on the mister with low lag (usually on my pvm) but hey that's just me. I will more than likely buy it on Switch.
Y Shoot
B Jump
X or A will likely be my sub weapon.
R Dash
L is dead to me outside of zoom aiming
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Why when you can use R to dash, B/A/X to jump, and Y/X/▢ to shoot?
I could dash with R on MMX, but on MMZ, where one of the shoulder buttons I will be constantly holding and releasing... it's gotta be R. Releasing L to attack feels unnatural to me for some reason.
For both series, my setting has been this one for my entire life, using a Nintendo or Xbox controller:
B/A -> Jump.
Y/X -> Main Weapon. Usually the Saber, for that "Hack'n'Slash Lite" feeling.
L -> Dash. My setting de facto since the X series, it also worked pretty well for sliding in classic Mega Man games (including 11).
R -> Sub Weapon. I prefer the Buster Shot, but the thing for both series is about experimenting with everything and finding the perfect build for your playstyle and/or for getting the S class on everything.
Of course, any control setting could be good if you felt comfortable with it in another games. For example, a Dark Souls set could be interesting (B/A for jumping, Y/X for dashing, L and R for weapons).
B/A -> Jump.
Y/X -> Main Weapon. Usually the Saber, for that "Hack'n'Slash Lite" feeling.
L -> Dash. My setting de facto since the X series, it also worked pretty well for sliding in classic Mega Man games (including 11).
R -> Sub Weapon. I prefer the Buster Shot, but the thing for both series is about experimenting with everything and finding the perfect build for your playstyle and/or for getting the S class on everything.
Of course, any control setting could be good if you felt comfortable with it in another games. For example, a Dark Souls set could be interesting (B/A for jumping, Y/X for dashing, L and R for weapons).
Trophies are silly lol. One platinum, but you only really have to beat every game on non-casual difficulty with a few other misc things. Same as X.
Mega Man Zero/ZX Legacy Collection Trophies
1 Platinum • 3 Gold • 12 Silver • 22 Bronze
psnprofiles.com
They really don't want these to be challenging. Even Mega Man 11 had the 1 hour speedrun including menu's and Dr. Light's Challenge.Trophies are silly lol. One platinum, but you only really have to beat every game on non-casual difficulty with a few other misc things. Same as X.
Mega Man Zero/ZX Legacy Collection Trophies
1 Platinum • 3 Gold • 12 Silver • 22 Bronzepsnprofiles.com
I want my 100% S Rank with separate platinum for every game :(
I appreciate all the work you've put in reviewing this game, and I want to trust your judgement, but there have been extensive tests of MMXLC1's input lag and it's significant. Whether you personally find it bad enough to ruin your gameplay experience is almost irrelevant, because you can reproduce the same results everyone else has, and then juxtapose it with the original ROMS/cartridges.
It's also not just about gameplay, it's about Capcom reselling people a subpar product. Input lag should not be worse than it was originally. There's literally no reason for it unless they're using absolutely terrible emulation software.
If you're seriously out here saying the MMXLC1 plays "just as well as it always has", that is literally and demonstrably impossible, so I really don't know how to process this.
At the time MMXLC 1 came out, not to mention during the review period, I didn't know about the actual figures and I don't have equipment that can test latency Digital Foundry-style. Personal experience absolutely does matter though, because it's a cornerstone of what a review essentially is. You can't review something without having personal experience with it, and I have a lot of it with Mega Man.
All that said, I'm happy to concede the point that it isn't technically equal -- obviously, I can't argue with hard measurements -- and I could (and should) have used a better choice of words than "playing just as well as it always has." But I absolutely do stand by my Love rating for my GX review of MMXLC 1 and maintain that it felt to me, during the review period, close enough to the original games that they generally felt like the OG versions. I was able to pull off all the same tricks and play at the same high level I associate with the originals, and my personal gameplay experience was not negatively affected.
But now I'm basically just repeating what FallenHeroX1 said up above, and I'm in agreement with them, so I'll end things here. Thanks for your reply and feedback, and if you do happen to watch my Zero/ZX Legacy Collection review, I hope you enjoy it! (Anything I say about input lag excepted. :P)