America cares more about the economy then People's lives. Anything else would be Socialist. /S/
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That probably has more to do with the effect of locking down at homes rather than not being able to learn in person.
Just a hypothetical scenario here, but let's say if we were in a situation where schools are closed for a year but there is no virus and people are still freely to socialize, I would guess those numbers will be very different. So I don't think you can say not being able to learn in person is the cause here when remote learning is available.
Look, there is no trade off here when you are talking about teachers getting killed by this virus. The pandemic is raging in this country, it is getting worse not better. It is breaking record every freaking day. It is statistically guaranteed some teachers will die if they are forced to go back in. It is an impossible task to force safety guidelines on younger students. Not to mention death is not the only concern here. People recovered can suffer severe long term damage. There is a reason why so many teachers are just quitting. We need to listen to them. So no, it is not an acceptable trade off.
Students will get sick and die too. Yes, the data so far shows that children are less likely to get infected and less likely to spread the virus. But "less likely" has been politically reinterpreted to mean "children are immune to COVID-19" which is simply not the case. In Texas, there are roughly 900 childcare facilities currently open. Approx. 1300 confirmed COVID-19 cases have been linked back to those 900 childcare facilities. Of those approx. 1300 cases, 400 of them are children. Less likely doesn't mean it doesn't happen. CNN had an article about it the other day using data from the Texas Health and Human Services Department. Childcare facilities don't serve 1000+ students the way many schools, especially high schools, do. Sending students back to in-person school will be devastating.
And the highest priority is health during a global pandemic.
But I thought Trump called her a fool!
How could she possibly be better at running a country?
/S
the full report can be found here.
Covid-19 in schoolchildren – A comparison between Finland and Sweden
In conclusion, closure or not of schools has had little if any impact on the number of laboratory confirmed cases in school aged children in Finland and Sweden. The negative effects of closing schools must be weighed against the positive effects, if any, it might have on the mitigation of the...www.folkhalsomyndigheten.se
i wasn't trying to cherry-pick anything. overall, the report supports the point i was making. i was incorrect in stating that the report was written by finnish authorities though. it was published by swedish authorities and written in collaboration between swedish and finnish experts in the field.
Missouri Summer Camp Closes After 82 Kids and Staff Infected with Coronavirus [UPDATE: Other camps with same situation] COVID
Kanakuk Kamps, a network of Christian sports camps in the state, reopened their camps to thousands of kids beginning in May. Kanakuk chose to reopen after Missouri leaders said that there was a risk in letting camps reopen, but that they were confident that the camps had made plans to stop any...
www.resetera.com
I am really interested in your opinion on this.
I mean, Summer camps are mostly outdoor activities for a few weeks. Not like the schools where children are stuffed into a classroom for the year.
so it seems this mainly affected the so called K-2 camps, which google tells me are for teenagersMissouri Summer Camp Closes After 82 Kids and Staff Infected with Coronavirus [UPDATE: Other camps with same situation] COVID
Kanakuk Kamps, a network of Christian sports camps in the state, reopened their camps to thousands of kids beginning in May. Kanakuk chose to reopen after Missouri leaders said that there was a risk in letting camps reopen, but that they were confident that the camps had made plans to stop any...
I am really interested in your opinion on this.
I mean, Summer camps are mostly outdoor activities for a few weeks. Not like the schools where children are stuffed into a classroom for the year.
that's your explanation right there. high school kids and older can spread the disease, while elementary school and middle scho kids generally do not. i am in favour of opening elementary schools and middle schools, while keeping high schools and universities online. also due to the fact that high school students are more likely to be able to handle online education than younger students are
Those assumed percentages are way too high
Sweden was about as heavily hit by coronavirus as the US is currently and kept their elementary schools and middle schools open throughout. 0 kids have died from coronavirus in Sweden despite that
Not surprising at all. There are plenty of older teachers who are only a few years from retirement anyway, and would be at risk if they caught anything because they were forced to go to work. And if they get it, then their partners or kids could get it too.
It's totally understandable that a lot of them are deciding that it's not worth the risk.
It's totally understandable that a lot of them are deciding that it's not worth the risk.
That is a totally untenable position. Even the flu is well above that threshold.
Even if more people would die as a result of schools not opening?
Shouldn't we do the calculus (on a per-school and per-individual basis) to save the most lives and minimize the personal harms?
(Also, lots of people die driving/being driven/walking to/from school, disease aside. Should everyone be sheltered at home for eternity because going outside costs lives?)
School was virtual for the last few months of the year with no issues. Children at some of the dense populations will definitely see high infection rates.
Also I saw the Sweden report and the median is kind of suspect. What is the median avg size of an American school?
Also I saw the Sweden report and the median is kind of suspect. What is the median avg size of an American school?
"(Also, lots of people die driving/being driven/walking to/from school, disease aside. Should everyone be sheltered at home for eternity because going outside costs lives?)"
Now you are just talking moronic equivalency.
Are you going to show your receipt on this talking point or not?
"Even if more people would die as a result of schools not opening"
Now you are just talking moronic equivalency.
Are you going to show your receipt on this talking point or not?
"Even if more people would die as a result of schools not opening"
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Don't blame them one bit, especially with how horrific the numbers are right now... America's education system is already so broken, and it'll continue to get worse. Education is important, but not at the expense of teachers and kids lives.
COVID shone a light at how fundamentally broken the US is in a lot of areas.
COVID shone a light at how fundamentally broken the US is in a lot of areas.
If you had a near 1/100 chance of death or major injury in those situations. Yes.
When you see kids having parties and just not caring id be cautious too and thinking retiring if it were possible. They saw it with spring break, not everyone is going to be careful.
If teachers teach remotely, they have a high chance of not catching it and staying safe. Therefore they can still teach. If you move to physical teaching, they have a high chance of catching it.
What happen when teachers get sick and/or die? Who is going to replace them? Who is going to take over the teaching of remotely?
The point is simple, keeping things remote will maintain the status quo. If you move to physical teaching and teachers/staff get sick, changing it back to remote teaching will be way worse than if you didn't move to physical teaching. The country don't have unlimited numbers of teachers, when teachers decide to retired or get sick, things are going to be in a way worse situation.
My girlfriend is a teacher here in TX and their district wants all online-only teachers to still REPORT TO WORK IN THE BUILDING DAILY.
It's amazing how little leadership there is here in the state that constantly flaunts how much they "go it their own way". It sounds like an idiots way of saying "we'll take your tax money but don't want to actually exercise any leadership".
It's amazing how little leadership there is here in the state that constantly flaunts how much they "go it their own way". It sounds like an idiots way of saying "we'll take your tax money but don't want to actually exercise any leadership".
Car accidents are not contagious and do not exhibit exponential growth when multiple occur.
Same for my district. They specifically sent out a survey and asked which to you prefer (note you will be required to report to work daily regardless).
The post I responded to argued that even one death from disease anywhere was a reason to keep schools entirely shut down everywhere. I hope you can see that threshold is just as moronic as the "equivalency" in my post.
Projected Deaths of Despair During COVID-19 · Well Being Trust
Just another WordPress site
wellbeingtrust.org
Bleak UNICEF Report On Kids And COVID-19 ... But There Is Hope
A report on the impact of the novel coronavirus on the children of South Asia pays special note to reports of adolescent suicide — and looks at preventive measures.
www.npr.org
Suicides on the rise amid stay-at-home order, Bay Area medical professionals say
"What I have seen recently, I have never seen before. I have never seen so much intentional injury."
abc7news.com
Domestic Abuse Can Escalate In Pandemic And Continue Even If You Get Away
Loosened quarantine restrictions have given some people an opportunity to flee violence at home, but cyberstalking and high unemployment have also made it harder to completely escape after moving out.
www.npr.org
Invisible victims of quarantine: child abuse experts fear another, different pandemic
VIRGINIA (WAVY) — As stay-at-home orders continue in Virginia and across the nation there is fear that another pandemic is emerging: child abuse. Reports of abuse are way down in the co…
www.wavy.com
Here's my position again, since it was removed from your reply:
Shouldn't we do the calculus (on a per-school and per-individual basis) to save the most lives and minimize the personal harms?
The post I responded to argued that even one death from disease anywhere was a reason to keep schools entirely shut down everywhere. I hope you can see that threshold is just as moronic as the "equivalency" in my post.
Projected Deaths of Despair During COVID-19 · Well Being Trust
Just another WordPress site
Bleak UNICEF Report On Kids And COVID-19 ... But There Is Hope
A report on the impact of the novel coronavirus on the children of South Asia pays special note to reports of adolescent suicide — and looks at preventive measures.
Suicides on the rise amid stay-at-home order, Bay Area medical professionals say
"What I have seen recently, I have never seen before. I have never seen so much intentional injury."
Domestic Abuse Can Escalate In Pandemic And Continue Even If You Get Away
Loosened quarantine restrictions have given some people an opportunity to flee violence at home, but cyberstalking and high unemployment have also made it harder to completely escape after moving out.
Invisible victims of quarantine: child abuse experts fear another, different pandemic
VIRGINIA (WAVY) — As stay-at-home orders continue in Virginia and across the nation there is fear that another pandemic is emerging: child abuse. Reports of abuse are way down in the co…
Here's my position again, since it was removed from your reply:
Shouldn't we do the calculus (on a per-school and per-individual basis) to save the most lives and minimize the personal harms?
You don't understand the scope of what you're asking for. Who is going to do this? Do you know how many school jurisdictions there are in the US.
Suburb schools are different from urban, which are even more different from rural ones. Who is going to be able to analyze all that? And with what resources? Federal aid is crap right now, states are barely able to get by, how exactly can they do what you're asking them to do?
It literally takes one to infect a school. Unless we can magically get around that, schools need to stay closed.
I don't blame teachers, especially older ones, for retiring. Unpaid, Overworked and now expected to give up their physical and mental health to work in the middle of pandemic.
I don't blame teachers, especially older ones, for retiring. Unpaid, Overworked and now expected to give up their physical and mental health to work in the middle of pandemic.
Everyone wants to open schools, Don. It's just a huge mess because of your horrible response to the virus and not really all that safe to do so currently.
Out of curiosity, are you also in TX? It seems absolutely ridiculous to potentially expose online-only teachers to areas where an outbreak is likely to occur. It reeks of that 1980's American business management ethic against people working from home. i.e. "If I can't physically watch you work then I'm going to assume you're sitting around doing nothing all day".
I've been a software engineer for almost 5 years now and that mindset to me is pigheaded during good times and outright dangerous during pandemic times.
I went through a couple of them and they all pointing to the lockdown and not specifically learning in person as the cause. It's more result of shit family members than anything.
Of course the lockdown is harsh on everyone but in case you forget we are in a middle of highly infectious disease pandemic with no cure.
honestly I don't even know what you are proposing with your second point
Of course the lockdown is harsh on everyone but in case you forget we are in a middle of highly infectious disease pandemic with no cure.
honestly I don't even know what you are proposing with your second point
My partner has been working (unpaid) with other faculty members and health professionals throughout the summer on a variety of plans for reopening their specific elementary school, ranging from full remote to splitting classes and maximizing outdoor and large space utilization with alternative options for higher risk faculty and students and everything in between. Our area has one of the lowest infection rates in the nation with further drops every week. And as the start of the school year grows closer, a determination will be made based on all of the factors in play.
It is ridiculous to say that because rates are skyrocketing in areas like parts of Arizona and Florida where government has been ineffective and people have engaged in full scale denialism that everywhere and everyone is just as bad, that nothing but full lockdown can be considered.
My wife's emphasis on her Master's was digital learning and she is extremely comfortable teaching digitally.
but she HATES it. She absolutely hates it. She told me she was meant to teach kids face to face, not digitally.
but she HATES it. She absolutely hates it. She told me she was meant to teach kids face to face, not digitally.
I mean... we could or probably even SHOULD be concerned about the wellbeing of our kids here since admittedly there have not been many deaths of small children due to Covid-19 as far as i know BUT the long term effects on kids's health that have been infected are absolutely unknown so far... so there's that but.... what baffles me a lot MORE than that is the fact that nobody seems to talk about the absolutely real situation of having even a TINY portion of those kids that DO get infected infect their parents at home of which a part can and will die or again, suffer long term complications of a novel disease. How is this in any way acceptable? I mean... as far as i remember, in the Pre-Covid world, there was no implication of simply going to work every day and one day suddenly inhaling some Virus where you can then roll the dice whether it will a) do nothing to you b) make you sick with flu like symptoms c) make you really sick and suffer permanent damage or d) outright kill you.
Now, i am not saying that reopening schools is not important, it is, but i cannot blame any teacher that does not like the beforementioned odds and would decide to not gamble their health and possibly lives on this issue.
The flu was always there before as well.... and yes, you could die from that too. But the odds for that were so extremely minimal that if you were healthy, honestly, you could live with the risk (plus there is a vaccine that at least works in part) but THIS? Fuck these odds, it doesn't sound like a good idea to me no matter how some people try to spin it as an "acceptable risk". It just doesn't.
Now, i am not saying that reopening schools is not important, it is, but i cannot blame any teacher that does not like the beforementioned odds and would decide to not gamble their health and possibly lives on this issue.
The flu was always there before as well.... and yes, you could die from that too. But the odds for that were so extremely minimal that if you were healthy, honestly, you could live with the risk (plus there is a vaccine that at least works in part) but THIS? Fuck these odds, it doesn't sound like a good idea to me no matter how some people try to spin it as an "acceptable risk". It just doesn't.
One school in our state just released a draft of a plan. The state told us they wanted us in 5 days a week, but for the high school they have half the kids coming in for 2 days, the other half coming in for the other 2 days, and then a day of cleaning and planning for teachers. No idea how they're adjusting schedules for that or how it works as the news article doesn't go into detail. Elementary and middle school are 4 day weeks.
Not sure if other schools will follow suit with something similar.
Not sure if other schools will follow suit with something similar.
Okay, which states do you think are forcing school to open? Do you expect all teachers to work unpaid and so on? Just because it will work for 1 school district, doesn't mean it will work for everyone.
My position throughout this thread is that everything needs to be done on a case by case basis, without the blanket OPEN ALL SCHOOLS (Trump) or KEEP ALL SCHOOLS CLOSED (KneejerkEra) extremism.
Other schools/districts are also working on similar plans — not every teacher is on an unpaid task force, not by a long shot, but there are enough volunteers to engage in these discussions and decision making processes, at least at those schools that I have connections to.
I'm a teacher. My 3 children will not be attending in person school until there is a vaccine. Plain and simple.
My state asked all school districts to make three plans. Here's my district's:
A - Open school as normal, require masks and social distancing in the hallways
B - Rotate students. Kids go for in-person school for one week, then they are virtual for two weeks, repeat
C - Entirely virtual, like we were from March to June
It seems right now that parents will get a choice, and since my wife and I both work from home and can (hopefully) shift our schedules to fit our kids' needs, we'll probably keep them home. My biggest concern is my youngest who has speech therapy and occupational therapy provided through the school system and those just aren't as effective via Zoom. I'm hoping maybe we could bring him in each week for those or something.
All I know is they closed down schools on March 13th when there were 8 known cases in my county (likely more because testing was so limited then). Right now our daily average of new cases is at 327. Unless some miracle occurs to get those numbers WAY down, I don't want my kids going.
I really don't want to be a part-time elementary school teacher on top of my full-time job, but since I'm privileged enough to work from home, I'd rather try that balancing act again than put my family at risk.
A - Open school as normal, require masks and social distancing in the hallways
B - Rotate students. Kids go for in-person school for one week, then they are virtual for two weeks, repeat
C - Entirely virtual, like we were from March to June
It seems right now that parents will get a choice, and since my wife and I both work from home and can (hopefully) shift our schedules to fit our kids' needs, we'll probably keep them home. My biggest concern is my youngest who has speech therapy and occupational therapy provided through the school system and those just aren't as effective via Zoom. I'm hoping maybe we could bring him in each week for those or something.
All I know is they closed down schools on March 13th when there were 8 known cases in my county (likely more because testing was so limited then). Right now our daily average of new cases is at 327. Unless some miracle occurs to get those numbers WAY down, I don't want my kids going.
I really don't want to be a part-time elementary school teacher on top of my full-time job, but since I'm privileged enough to work from home, I'd rather try that balancing act again than put my family at risk.
Don't send your kids then. Not sure what your life situation is, but in mine I am desperate for schools to open.
I agree. Now what? Getting schools open is extremely important. It maybe too late in the us, buts it's a goal that should be given top priority over the next 1.5 months.
We're in a worse situation now then we were in when we shut everything down. Until that isn't true, and isn't true consistently with stable plans for contact tracing, quarantine, and mandated and federally provided PPE for every citizen, everything should remain shut down.
We lockdown and provide necessary financial and medical support to those who need it. The reasons we're in this mess now is that various state/ local/federal governments saw decreasing numbers as a green light to get everything running again. This cycle will repeat as you carve out exemptions for every "necessary" thing that absolutely needs to be open. No, it doesn't. Successful countries shut everything down, crushed the virus with comprehensive regimes of testing, tracking, and PPE mandates that they could re-open schools without an outbreak.
It took SK multiple tries to get opening schools correct. The idea that a country as large as america won't do massive harm with a nationwide re-opening as flu season actually starts is ludicrous and stupid. Opening in the fall was our prize for getting the science, health recommendations, and lockdown correct the first time. We didn't cause we're poorly led. Now we're between two shitty choices and you want me to accept the one that will lead to more people dying. Fuck no.
We lockdown and provide necessary financial and medical support to those who need it. The reasons we're in this mess now is that various state/ local/federal governments saw decreasing numbers as a green light to get everything running again. This cycle will repeat as you carve out exemptions for every "necessary" thing that absolutely needs to be open. No, it doesn't. Successful countries shut everything down, crushed the virus with comprehensive regimes of testing, tracking, and PPE mandates that they could re-open schools without an outbreak.
It took SK multiple tries to get opening schools correct. The idea that a country as large as america won't do massive harm with a nationwide re-opening as flu season actually starts is ludicrous and stupid. Opening in the fall was our prize for getting the science, health recommendations, and lockdown correct the first time. We didn't cause we're poorly led. Now we're between two shitty choices and you want me to accept the one that will lead to more people dying. Fuck no.
schools should have been opened back up long before restaurants lol
risks of spread are much lower in schools than in restaurants PLUS schools serve a much more important role for society than restaurants do
risks of spread are much lower in schools than in restaurants PLUS schools serve a much more important role for society than restaurants do