With No End in Sight to the Coronavirus, Some Teachers Are Retiring Rather Than Going Back to School

[hydrophilic attack]

Doesn't take into account asymptomatic spread to families, etc. Also, great, they got sick just like everyone else? What's the point here? They wouldn't get sick if schools were closed, thus lowering the level of spread of the virus.

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The point is that people are arguing that schools need to be closed lest they become a hotbed for virus spread. But if that were actually the case, if schools indeed serve as important infection vectors, then teachers would contract it at a significantly higher rate than other professions do. This data is a very strong indication that the assumption that schools are hotbeds for covid transmission is just flat out wrong.

If schools do, in fact, not serve as considerable infection vectors, then the marginal benefit of keeping them closed is not worth the major drawback of harming children's development

 

[Deleted member 13101]

Kids still get sick with currently untreatable conditions, as do adults.

 

[Speevy]

That's great if you're at the end of your career, but it's not an option for me.

 

[psionotic]

Two teachers have just announced their early retirements in my small department at a western university.

It's sad, but frankly, with the wave of layoffs about to hit everywhere it might be for the best, because their classes will be available to others, who hopefully won't be laid off. (Like me, maybe?)

 

[Kyrios]

Yeah like I said in another thread, 10 teachers peaced out at the school my sister works at. And two more are supposedly weighing their options.

 

[Konradleijon]

This sucks, Especially since Teachers get payed shit at least in America.

 

[ArrogantBastard]

sweden kept their schools open throughout this entire thing

and data shows that teachers didn't contract the virus at higher rates than other professions

because kids barely spread the virus

and their development is seriously hurt by lack of proper classroom education

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Again, can we PLEASE stop using Sweden as a benchmark when we compare it to the United States. Sweden has seen what, 70k cases, Harris County in TX alone has seen half that. You aren't remotely comparing apples to apples here.

 

[hydrophilic attack]

Again, can we PLEASE stop using Sweden as a benchmark when we compare it to the United States. Sweden has seen what, 70k cases, Harris County in TX alone has seen half that. You aren't remotely comparing apples to apples here.

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Sweden has, to date, had more covid deaths per capita than the us has had

it's absolutely comparable in this regard

 

[ArrogantBastard]

Sweden has, to date, had more covid deaths per capita than the us has had

it's absolutely comparable in this regard

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Not even remotely comparable.

 

[MasterChumly]

sweden kept their schools open throughout this entire thing

and data shows that teachers didn't contract the virus at higher rates than other professions

because kids barely spread the virus

and their development is seriously hurt by lack of proper classroom education

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So we're using Sweden's garbage testing and horrific response as something to aspire to? Good god

 

[hydrophilic attack]

Not even remotely comparable.

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1. the relevant metric is deaths rather than cases, because the latter is just a function of how many tests are carried out

2. of course a larger country will have more cases. the relevant numbers should be compared per capita

like, these are incredibly basic concepts. i'm wondering if you're just trolling me into saying that sweden is doing badly at this point lmao

 

[SeeingeyeDug]

Not even remotely comparable.

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The quoted poster says deaths per capita and you put up a chart of total cases per nation. How do your charts dispute the previous assertion?

 

[ArrogantBastard]

I guess this positivity rate is simply because we tested more people and not a reflection of increasing spread. That is what you would have me believe, right hydrophilic attack

 

[hydrophilic attack]

So we're using Sweden's garbage testing and horrific response as something to aspire to? Good god

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Actually that table was from a Finnish report comparing the situation in Sweden and Finland. (Finland is considered to have had one of the most effective coronavirus response, so if you don't trust Swedish data, maybe you'll trust Finnish data.)

and whether or not sweden tested as many people as we should have tested, any undertesting would be roughly equal across different professions. it wouldn't affect the accuracy of a comparison between different professions

the points i'm trying to make in this thread should not really be difficult to grasp lmao. some of these responses i'm getting are just complete non-sequiturs

 

[ArrogantBastard]

The quoted poster says deaths per capita and you put up a chart of total cases per nation. How do your charts dispute the previous assertion?

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Texas isn't a nation as much as we like to think it is.

 

[hydrophilic attack]

I guess this positivity rate is simply because we tested more people and not a reflection of increasing spread. That is what you would have me believe, right hydrophilic attack

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no it's likely a reflection of increasing spread, though not conclusive evidence of it in and of itself

but it's not really proof of texas being in a worse spot now than sweden was during its peak, when we kept schools open and when, again, teachers were not overrepresented among people getting infected, which indicates that schools don't act as infection vectors

 

[MasterChumly]

Actually that table was from a Finnish report comparing the situation in Sweden and Finland. (Finland is considered to have had one of the most effective coronavirus response, so if you don't trust Swedish data, maybe you'll trust Finnish data.)

and whether or not sweden tested as many people as we should have tested, any undertesting would be roughly equal across different professions. it wouldn't affect the accuracy of a comparison between different professions

the points i'm trying to make in this thread should not really be difficult to grasp lmao. some of these responses i'm getting are just complete non-sequiturs

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What difference does it make if Finland released it? It still based off incredibly poor data from Sweden. Saying that their garbage testing was garbage across the board doesn't somehow make the study better.

Also it means absolutely nothing when it comes to the safety of teachers and kids when other professions are working from home because it's too dangerous.
You didn't bother to even address the fact that this thread is about older teachers retiring because of the risk. Are you saying they should stay and potentially die?

 

[cgcg]

This is moronic even if teachers are not contracting at a higher rate than the other professions, putting teachers back in school will mean more cases. Even 1 extra death is too much. Another 6 months or so is not going to kill those who are not attending school in person. Some of you fucking christ. Teachers are already low paying under appreciated with shit health insurance in alot of cases. Just no.

 

[hydrophilic attack]

What difference does it make if Finland released it? It still based off incredibly poor data from Sweden. Saying that their garbage testing was garbage across the board doesn't somehow make the study better.

Also it means absolutely nothing when it comes to the safety of teachers and kids when other professions are working from home because it's too dangerous.
You didn't bother to even address the fact that this thread is about older teachers retiring because of the risk. Are you saying they should stay and potentially die?

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Look at what you're even saying here. Yes, many of the other professions, to which teachers are being compared here, could work from home. Yet even so, teachers, who could not work from home, did not contract the disease at higher rates compared to other professions. That's just further indication that, as far as workplaces go, in terms of the risk of getting infected by covid-19, schools are relatively safe

 

[SeeingeyeDug]

Texas isn't a nation as much as we like to think it is.

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i saw the chart say new cases and US. I missed the Texas separate pull down. Sorry. Doesn't change the meat of my argument. How does a chart about total cases factor into an argument about deaths per capita?

 

[ArrogantBastard]

i saw the chart say new cases and US. I missed the Texas separate pull down. Sorry. Doesn't change the meat of my argument. How does a chart about total cases factor into an argument about deaths per capita?

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No offense here, but why is the mortality rate of this virus the be all end all? This is a novel virus that we do not fully understand, there is new research coming out every day that is saying that individuals that fully recovered have severe complications long-term. I guess screw it, lets open schools, if my wife, mother, or myself get sick because we are teachers I should just be okay with it.

 

[MasterChumly]

Look at what you're even saying here. Yes, many of the other professions, to which teachers are being compared here, could work from home. Yet even so, teachers, who could not work from home, did not contract the disease at higher rates. That's just further indication that, as workplaces go, schools are relatively safe

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Are you saying that the Finnish/Swedish were so fucking stupid that they released a study and compared teachers to people working from home? Stop manipulating data and falsifying things to get your point across

 

[CrabDust]

My kid's K teacher just announced her retirement a few weeks back and she's not THAT old. I don't blame her, but this kind of thing is going to put tremendous pressure on the public school system.

 

[hydrophilic attack]

Are you saying that the Finnish/Swedish were so fucking stupid that they released a study and compared teachers to people working from home? Stop manipulating data and falsifying things to get your point across

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lol are you even reading what I write or the table I posted in the first place?

You are not responding in a rational manner to my posts. Are you drunk or something?

As was clearly stated, that particular table (which was part of a larger report examining the effect of school closures on fighting covid spread) compares the infection rate of Swedish teachers to the average among all other professions, many of which could work from home, and found that teachers did NOT contract the virus to a significantly higher degree than did people in other professions. Take from that what you will. I think the implications of such data is pretty damn clear but I'm clearly not getting through to you so we should probably cease this discussion because it's not going anywhere lol

 

[Sensei]

hydrophilic guy is in every thread about this saying sweden lol

 

[SeeingeyeDug]

No offense here, but why is the mortality rate of this virus the be all end all? This is a novel virus that we do not fully understand, there is new research coming out every day that is saying that individuals that fully recovered have severe complications long-term. I guess screw it, lets open schools, if my wife, mother, or myself get sick because we are teachers I should just be okay with it.

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nah man that's not the point. You can make your arguments, but don't refute deaths per capita with total cases charts. It doesn't make sense. I agree with you that we shouldn't open schools. But I'm not going to provide irrelevant chart data to make my point.

 

[Deleted member 35631]

All of those countries also have been better at handling the virus than the U.S. ever will.

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Came to write this. Those countries already have the situation mostly under control.

 

[Konradleijon]

I know they actually shut down completely.

 

[yongeandcollege]

Getting school opens should be a top societal priority; if it results in older teachers retiring then so be it. I respect their decision and it might open up spots for young teachers. I think hydrophilic attack makes a compelling case. The US may be another beast, but as I've said a few times on this forum, as full-time employed parents of three school-aged children, I hope Ontario opens schools in the fall.

 

[MasterChumly]

lol are you even reading what I write or the table I posted in the first place?

You are not responding in a rational manner to my posts. Are you drunk or something?

As was clearly stated, that particular table (which was part of a larger report examining the effect of school closures on fighting covid spread) compares the infection rate of Swedish teachers to the average among all other professions, many of which could work from home, and found that teachers did NOT contract the virus to a significantly higher degree than did people in other professions. Take from that what you will. I think the implications of such data is pretty damn clear but I'm clearly not getting through to you so we should probably cease this discussion because it's not going anywhere lol

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How are we supposed to know what the study says when you don't link to it and cherry pick a table and start making assertions. You come into every thread about schools making definitive statements that it's perfectly safe and that Sweden is somehow a model. You haven't provided any evidence that it's safe for older teachers/sick teachers to not quit. You just keep deflecting. How about address the topic at hand instead of ramming in your opinion that schools need to open.

 

[Deleted member 43657]

Heard on CNN that the federal government doesn't give a lot of money to schools. . . so it was apparently another empty drumpf threat. There's no funding to cut.

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That is very reassuring to hear.

 

[Konradleijon]

Getting school opens should be a top societal priority; if it results in older teachers retiring then so be it. I respect their decision and it might open up spots for young teachers. I think hydrophilic attack makes a compelling case. The US may be another beast, but as I've said a few times on this forum, as full-time employed parents of three school-aged children, I hope Ontario opens schools in the fall.

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no, people not dying should be our Social priority.

 

[hydrophilic attack]

How are we supposed to know what the study says when you don't link to it and cherry pick a table and start making assertions. You come into every thread about schools making definitive statements that it's perfectly safe and that Sweden is somehow a model. You haven't provided any evidence that it's safe for older teachers/sick teachers to not quit. You just keep deflecting. How about address the topic at hand instead of ramming in your opinion that schools need to open.

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the full report can be found here.

Covid-19 in schoolchildren – A comparison between Finland and Sweden

In conclusion, closure or not of schools has had little if any impact on the number of laboratory confirmed cases in school aged children in Finland and Sweden. The negative effects of closing schools must be weighed against the positive effects, if any, it might have on the mitigation of the...

www.folkhalsomyndigheten.se

i wasn't trying to cherry-pick anything. overall, the report supports the point i was making. i was incorrect in stating that the report was written by finnish authorities though. it was published by swedish authorities and written in collaboration between swedish and finnish experts in the field.

 

[ShyMel]

My sister is nowhere near retirement age but I know she is worried about going back. Overall her students were able to handle getting through their work, but some definitely struggled. She also had a parent message her to ask her to send out info to other parents about a birthday party for a student. As if we do not live in a state that is struggling with the virus.

 

[Volimar]

Can't blame them at all. How many are high risk?

 

[Yoshimitsu126]

Time to collect those box tops

 

[ArrogantBastard]

the full report can be found here.

Covid-19 in schoolchildren – A comparison between Finland and Sweden

In conclusion, closure or not of schools has had little if any impact on the number of laboratory confirmed cases in school aged children in Finland and Sweden. The negative effects of closing schools must be weighed against the positive effects, if any, it might have on the mitigation of the...

www.folkhalsomyndigheten.se

i wasn't trying to cherry-pick anything. overall, the report supports the point i was making. i was incorrect in stating that the report was written by finnish authorities though. it was published by swedish authorities and written in collaboration between swedish and finnish experts in the field.

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Help me out here, cause I must be drunk.

Is this saying that the average school has 225 children per campus?

 

[hydrophilic attack]

Help me out here, cause I must be drunk.

Is this saying that the average school has 225 children per campus?

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yes

though of course the highest and lowest extremes will deviate quite a lot from that mean value

 

[Deleted member 8860]

This is moronic even if teachers are not contracting at a higher rate than the other professions, putting teachers back in school will mean more cases. Even 1 extra death is too much. Another 6 months or so is not going to kill those who are not attending school in person. Some of you fucking christ. Teachers are already low paying under appreciated with shit health insurance in alot of cases. Just no.

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There's been a massive spike in suicides among American adolescents during the quarantine period, along with a huge increase in domestic violence.

The debate should be about the trade-offs and how to address getting children into a learning/social environment as safely as possible (for both the children and the adults). We have to consider the costs and benefits of every viable option (and on a per-locale basis).

 

[evrythngwastakn]

Teachers should be paid a fuck ton of money. Attract the best, recruit the best. These people are shaping our kids and therefore the future. Money should be POURED into schools in any and all countries.

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teaching is fucked, though here in Canada it doesn't seem to be quite as fucked as in the States. everyone loves teachers until money comes up, then we're all "lazy pricks who don't work 2 months a year and one time I had this bad teacher in grade 7 who made my life the train wreck it is today so shut up and put a few more kids in the classroom"

 

[wingkongex]

There's been a massive spike in suicides among American adolescents during the quarantine period, along with a huge increase in domestic violence.

The debate should be about the trade-offs and how to address getting children into a learning/social environment as safely as possible. We have to consider the costs and benefits of every viable option.

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Problem is, trying to brute-force society back into normalcy by doing things like going to school doesn't make the virus go away and doesn't take away the terrible uncertainties that lead to this uptick in suicides and other mental health issues in the first place. There will of course be benefits to it, but I think you may be underestimating the societal impact that this virus will continue to have whether a kid is sitting in class or not.

 

[MLB_Animator]

If schools do, in fact, not serve as considerable infection vectors, then the marginal benefit of keeping them closed is not worth the major drawback of harming children's development

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I don't consider the life of my wife (a teacher) or my children to be "marginal benefits." When we get this virus somewhat under control in the US, we can discuss re-opening schools.

 

[hydrophilic attack]

I don't consider the life of my wife (a teacher) or my children to be "marginal benefits." When we get this virus somewhat under control in the US, we can discuss re-opening schools.

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I didn't say that any increased survival chances of teachers would be only a marginal benefit lmao

google "marginal benefit" and "marginal costs". they're commonly used terms in discussions like this lol. "marginal" here carries the same meaning as does "marginal" in "marginal tax rates"

phrased differently, what i was trying to say was that the benefits (on the macro level) of closing schools vs keeping them open should be weighed against the drawbacks of doing so. there is solid evidence that school closures do very little to stop spread of covid-19. if this is the case, any benefit of closing schools are outweighed by the huge negative impact on children's development of such school closures

 

[yongeandcollege]

no, people not dying should be our Social priority.

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"Getting schools open should be a top societal priority." Emphasis added to aid comprehension.

 

[Kill3r7]

So what's the gamble here? You can't normalize or make people forget death. The hope is that the kids resiliency stays up and they don't bring it home?

I guess the thinking is leaving kids home = a hard to ignore sign that we are still living in a pandemic?

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Normalcy is his only shot this November. Kids at home means that either one or both of the parents have to stay home to keep an eye on them. Alternatively, you are hiring an Au pair or nanny.

 

[nampad]

Has been a while since he said something good about Germany 🤯

 

[CSX]

My assistant principal told me exactly this on the last week of the school year. It's not just the virus but the need to master more and more new technology as well.

 

[Benzychenz]

Seems like a valid course of action. The covid situation in the US means every single school should be doing remote learning.

 

[Sain]

This sucks, Especially since Teachers get payed shit at least in America.

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That's not necessarily true, at least in PA. You get paid poorly at the start, but depending on your district you will be pushing 6 figures around retirement age and you'll have a nice pension to go along with it. Times will be lean your first five years or so, however. Either way, I'd certainly consider an early retirement if I was still teaching, age 55+, and forced to go back into the classroom during a pandemic. Not worth the risk, IMO.

 

[Watershed]

I'm reposting my previous comments on this subject because posters like hydrophilic attack are once again arguing that we should accept preventable deaths in exchange for a return to normalcy.

The push to restart in-person schooling in the fall is directly motivated by the desire to send working parents and other working adults back to in-person work. Politicians and business leaders are not concerned about students' mental health or academic progress, they care about getting people back to work. The concern regarding re-opening schools is not just about the health risk to students, educators, school staff, and families. Re-opening schools means re-opening the economy and a return to normalcy. Does anyone think the United States specifically will be ready for that in a month? Look at Florida, Texas, and California.

Not to mention we are still learning about the health impacts of COVID-19 with a growing understanding of the potentially debilitating long-term symptoms of surviving COVID-19 still coming into view. The United States is not in a position to safely send students back to school or adults back to work. This is capitalism sacrificing human lives for a return to an economic normalcy in which those same human lives were already not getting a fair shake.

I can't emphasize this enough: students returning to in-person school means everyone else returns to work as well. This is what Trump wants. This will cause spikes far beyond what we are already seeing in places like Texas. Keeping kids at home keeps everyone safe and is one of the only effective leverages the general public has in a country that values their economic activity more than their lives.