Your attitude in this thread to other members has been horrible. You having a bad day or what?
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Witchfire announced (The Astronauts, FPS)
- Thread starter Transistor
- Start date
Your attitude in this thread to other members has been horrible. You having a bad day or what?
Sick!
Anyways games look sick brahs, will definitely support the devs including Adrian
I like really liked the bait-and-switch in the trailer. I thought it was a walking simulator and then it turned into FPS Dark Souls. The game is definitely on my radar now.
Warned for downplaying the actions of a group founded to harass people
Looks pretty awesome. The photogrammetry of The Vanishing of Ethan Carter was about the only thing going for it (was severely let down by the ending), so to see their technology now being used in a grimdark first person shooter is very exciting.
I don't really care about the politics behind the scenes of games. But a cursory glance at his opinions about the GG movement doesn't reveal anything alarming to me. Criticism of Feminist Frequency is fair - criticism and arguing your side, which he has done, is not harassment. There are a ton of counter point videos to the Tropes vs Women series on Youtube, enough to lead me to believe that there is an argument worth having there, instead of just accepting that what Sarkeesian says goes or you are a misogynist. He has also raised fairly legitimate points about the nature of games journalism. Just a few years ago it was a hot topic with Dorito Pope and swag bags, yet is now fairly taboo to even talk about it in case you appear as pro-Gamergate. Nothing he's said leads me to believe that he endorses the toxic part of Gamergate or far right ideology.
It reminds me of Trump voters. It would be wrong to assume that the only reason people supported Trump would be due to bigotry, in the same way that saying a person who is pro-Gamergate automatically means pro-harassment. I've seen enough intelligent, nuanced opinions from both sides of the spectrum to realize it's not as simple as feminists / Trump / Gamergaters / liberals / right wingers = evil.
If people don't want to support it because they want to stay as far away from these viewpoints as they can, that's fine by me. I don't think any of these developers are Stormfront-lite monsters though and wouldn't frown upon giving them money. It's the same deal with the developers of The Last Night and Kingdom Come - both controversies turned out to be tepid at best. That's all I have to say on it really.
I don't really care about the politics behind the scenes of games. But a cursory glance at his opinions about the GG movement doesn't reveal anything alarming to me. Criticism of Feminist Frequency is fair - criticism and arguing your side, which he has done, is not harassment. There are a ton of counter point videos to the Tropes vs Women series on Youtube, enough to lead me to believe that there is an argument worth having there, instead of just accepting that what Sarkeesian says goes or you are a misogynist. He has also raised fairly legitimate points about the nature of games journalism. Just a few years ago it was a hot topic with Dorito Pope and swag bags, yet is now fairly taboo to even talk about it in case you appear as pro-Gamergate. Nothing he's said leads me to believe that he endorses the toxic part of Gamergate or far right ideology.
It reminds me of Trump voters. It would be wrong to assume that the only reason people supported Trump would be due to bigotry, in the same way that saying a person who is pro-Gamergate automatically means pro-harassment. I've seen enough intelligent, nuanced opinions from both sides of the spectrum to realize it's not as simple as feminists / Trump / Gamergaters / liberals / right wingers = evil.
If people don't want to support it because they want to stay as far away from these viewpoints as they can, that's fine by me. I don't think any of these developers are Stormfront-lite monsters though and wouldn't frown upon giving them money. It's the same deal with the developers of The Last Night and Kingdom Come - both controversies turned out to be tepid at best. That's all I have to say on it really.
I'm definitely keeping an eye out for this. I've been a pretty big fan of the painkiller franchise, and Bulletstorm was really fun. I never played The Vanishing of Ethan Mars, but seeing People Can Fly definitely got my attention.
You really should drop that passive-aggressive tone in your posts.
If that would be the case, it would rather be a bad day, all the time. I doubt that's the case, the writing style however is very confrontational even when there is little reason to assume that style.
I like how the game does not look uber-realistic like Battlefront, but still looks cohesive enough that one can think that this kind of environment could exist. I wager that to get there you need a very tight balance of your setups.
I concur.
The Vanishing of Ethan Mars sounds like a great sequel to The Vanishing of Ethan Carter :)
That is actually smart choice, from my perspective and what I experienced in Poland, I would say, that your choice of not travelling there is smart.
Anyway, I get your point, If you don't want to buy it, then simply don't. I have different opinion, but that does not mean, that I support GamerGate, I am still confused what that movement is really about and seems to leak pretty far, right?
And "I hope that it stays on GAF" I meant, that we should have separate thread for this type of conversation. It's not constructive in any way, since there people discussing the game and people who discussing the issues which they have with the creators, I think that it should have it's own thread. That's what I meant, not silence this topic, hope that is more clear now.
By the way, not sure what "POC" means...
I liked the bait-and-switch, that was a fun reveal. Although it would have totally been fine if it was just a 'walking simulator'.
I have no issues with anyone wanting to buy the game, it looks neat.
Disagree with your post on a couple of points though. First off there really is no non-toxic part of Gamergate, it was clearly always a hate campaign just pretending to be about ethics in journalism, which is why that became a punchline almost instantly. Secondly I don't think the Trump voter comparison also really flies because the people who didn't vote for Trump specifically because of bigotry were still willing to overlook it.
I have no issues with anyone wanting to buy the game, it looks neat.
Disagree with your post on a couple of points though. First off there really is no non-toxic part of Gamergate, it was clearly always a hate campaign just pretending to be about ethics in journalism, which is why that became a punchline almost instantly. Secondly I don't think the Trump voter comparison also really flies because the people who didn't vote for Trump specifically because of bigotry were still willing to overlook it.
No I am say that Poland is not a very pleasant place, really conservative, really religious, it has lowest rate of immigration in Europe (They are shitty even for residents of their neighbors. We travel by motorhome from Estonia, back to home and in the middle of the night, in poland we were stopped by secret police and they search our car if we were asked to step out the vehicle and it was raided, for some reason...then of course IDs and stuff and what are we doing in Poland. "We want drive home through your shitty country, there's not other way". So after some time they said okay and we proceed. They broke my 1000USD lens, but I was scared shitlless, so I brushed it off, that I am grateful I survived.)
So this is Poland, yes they are some bad apples and lots of good people, but everything there looks like 20 years ago and it's beyond my imagination, how CDRP, Techland, People Can Fly, etc could produce high quality stuff, in this (sorry about the word) shitty country. Then again 4A produces Metro in even more shitty country, so, if you want, you probably can do it.
And no, culture in Czech Republic is vastly different, although I am really looking forward to Kingdom Come threads....
It was in reference to the fact that you attempted to police the thread and kept complaining about the direction the conversation was headed in.
I won't judge you or anyone else for buying the game, I haven't done that and I won't suddenly proceed to do that, I've mostly engaged with members that question the validity of addressing the controversy surrounding the co-owner or members that have straight up adopted a dismissive stance about bringing it up.
Yes, it is a far right movement.
That's where we'll have to agree to disagree and since the moderators have given their approval, it's pointless to argue against the conversation and it's merit in this thread, but I appreciate the clarification nonetheless. Thanks.
People of colour.
That's what you are doing right now. Also, that tone of yours isnt limited to this thread alone.
Users can discuss both the game and the Gamergate connection this title has. I do hope that people in this thread can see the two seperately.
I just cant get it out of my how this game has a similar ''feel'' to Jericho:
I've come to dread when a recent niche game announcement thread ends up with a lot of pages, as it usually means that some political controversy came to the fore...it was the case with The Last Night, which looked very interesting pre-controversy, and I'm guessing it's the case with this now.
I haven't skimmed through yet to see precisely what the issue is, but before going into any of the politics behind the scenes - the game itself looks very interesting, and I'll pick it up unless the developers have said or done something vile.
One thing I can say about the graphics - at first I thought it was actually going to be some kind of Dark Souls VR game! The architecture and foliage had that particular kind of look that DS3 and Bloodborne have.
I haven't skimmed through yet to see precisely what the issue is, but before going into any of the politics behind the scenes - the game itself looks very interesting, and I'll pick it up unless the developers have said or done something vile.
One thing I can say about the graphics - at first I thought it was actually going to be some kind of Dark Souls VR game! The architecture and foliage had that particular kind of look that DS3 and Bloodborne have.
How so? Genuine question.
I guess not.
9 pages, still no examples of what he said specifically.
As for taking this to fucking international level and saying not to travel to Poland when you aren't white, fucking lmao, is this being liberal and tolerant when you stereotype a whole country? You're like my grandma that's scared of traveling to Western Europe because she thinks there will be a terrorist attack there. Seriously some people just say they are liberal because they think it will make them look good. Meanwhile, they are as close-minded as the rednecks they hate and avoid any hard discussions, being afraid to speak their mind.
Btw. anecdotal evidence incoming - see the atmosphere of dread and hate this poor young black man experienced in Poland. https://youtu.be/gMq-MOmhczM?t=74
As for taking this to fucking international level and saying not to travel to Poland when you aren't white, fucking lmao, is this being liberal and tolerant when you stereotype a whole country? You're like my grandma that's scared of traveling to Western Europe because she thinks there will be a terrorist attack there. Seriously some people just say they are liberal because they think it will make them look good. Meanwhile, they are as close-minded as the rednecks they hate and avoid any hard discussions, being afraid to speak their mind.
Btw. anecdotal evidence incoming - see the atmosphere of dread and hate this poor young black man experienced in Poland. https://youtu.be/gMq-MOmhczM?t=74
Complains about anecdotes then proceeds to post an anecdote.
Booking a flight as we speak.
Btw. M1chl, this kind of talk is rich coming from a Czech, where your government is as fucked up as Polish
http://www.europenowjournal.org/201...-republic-so-hostile-to-muslims-and-refugees/
http://www.europenowjournal.org/201...-republic-so-hostile-to-muslims-and-refugees/
For me, it went from the longest "ugh" in the world to immediate interest when I found out I could shoot shit.
I didn't know about this, I don't really follow politics in here, because it's the same shit everyday and I never said, that CZ is some wonderful place to live, but it's really far away from Poland. We have lot to improve, yes. This is really for the longer discussion and it's 1:30am in here, so could you throw me a PM, so we could talk about that there. And no I am not some kind of patriot, there is a lot of shitty things in here. Problem with post-communistic countries, in general, that after decades of oppression from USSR, we kind of want have some identity. We as a country, not necessary my opinion, but I am citizen here so that's why I've said "we". I am too tired to read that article, I don't want to run away from what I have said, so please, can you throw me a pm, so I know tomorrow, that is something I need to address? Thanks in advance.
You tell me, that never had happened to me before even when I was travelling to those "dangerous countries".
Opposite for me - I was really hyped when I saw Astronauts and The Vanishing of Ethan Carter, but am disappointed that they're working on a shooter. Hoped for something like an enhanced Ethan Carter (mysterious setting, deeper background story, dialogues...).
To be honest, even the non-racist Poles, the ones who find the current political climate in country to be utterly terryfying, find american style social justice to be bizzare. I do hope our society manages to become more tolerant, but I never want us to become what western progressives are.
Oh please.
That literally has nothing to do with either the game, or the Gamergate connections to this game.
For a second i honestly thought it was a sequel to Carter, but then the guns came out. So good. For some reason when they zoomed in on enemies, i could tell a Bulletstorm dev had worked on it. Just the way it animates and moves.. very similar.
Reads like a non-apology if you still have a hard time grasping about the situation in Poland. I would wager to say, that its ''dismissive bullshit''.
;) wink wink jk.
Slow clap.... well said my friend I am for one a trump voter and agree with your sentiments here. We all have our perspectives and reasons for feeling a certain way about things. It's important and healthy to speak freely about the things we feel strongly about. From there it's important to hear opposing ideas that challenge the way we may feel or believe. As soon as the labels start getting thrown out conversation stops because you're either a racist, homophobe, crazy antifa member, liberal loon, snowflake, or nazi I could go on and on..... We are all human beings and need to be a little slower when reacting to things we may not agree with.
It definitely has painkiller vibes which is so good to see with an industry that is basically flooded with sci-fi shooters or classic war like scenarios.
Genuine question, please elaborate.
Nope, you need to understand the meaning of those words before you adopt them, I am framing it as work in progress, because that's what it is. First you need to recognise your biases and then you work on them. I could imagine that it must be a difficult concept to grasp for you. Wink.
That's beyond the scope of this thread.
Too bad that you didnt quote the winks, the ;) emoji or the jk and actually took it seriously. And ofcourse, you couldnt help but be condescending again, even to a fairly obvious comment said in jest.
There are more and more titles coming out that are going for a more ''Hellish'' look to their titles, including Witchfire. So i say its getting a bit more balanced now.
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Reminds me more of necrovision actually. And dam Jericho was actually pretty decent (not ground breaking but decent). To bad we ain't getting a sequel.I just cant get it out of my how this game has a similar ''feel'' to Jericho:
Since your accusations are based on how I chose to engage in this thread, just point me to the offending posts. Simple.
When was I supposed to laugh?
What setup are you running then?
I actually have that game for X360 (Jericho) but havent gotten around to playing it yet.
And yes it does look a LOT like Necrovision, which was great eurojank stuff.
Since the original accusation came from you, i should ask you to point at those posts first. However, that too would be beyond the scope of this thread.
I did, that was the whole basis for why I chose to engage with you in the first place. Now point me to the offending posts or should I just assume that your accusations are baseless?
I wish The Astronauts would have a member looking a lot like the people have worked with (Epic Games) like The Farm 51 has its own Cliffy B, for instance:
They aren't baseless, but like i said, they are beyond the scope of this thread. Stop reaching (Or whining) about it.
EDIT: Maaan, you are dense. Incredible.
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I really don't want to tread on any toes, but my impression is that a number of Eastern European developers had a certain loose affinity for GamerGate because of politics. The idea that those darn SJWs are trying to subvert gaming with their political opinions and shut down people they don't agree with caught their eye. Where "cultural marxism" is a bit of an eye-rolling topic in our world, with a tiny bit of side-eye because it does sometimes have anti-Semitic implications, think about how these topics are viewed by people whose countries were invaded by the Soviets or who otherwise consider the Soviets their historical enemies both ideological and literal.
I know, "Oh, great Dr. Carrol is raving about communists again." This is topical, I assure you. When Wolfenstein II was released, some prominent Eastern European game developers on twitter expressed their distaste for the game because... You guessed it, BJ pals around with communist agitators. I am sure that countries like Ukraine and Poland have their share of racism and sexism and things like that. (Who can forget Techland's "feminist whore" scandal. But in this particular context, when it comes to politics in gaming you have to interpret these things in the light of politics that often stray into socialism or communism. Communist symbols are banned in the Ukraine. If you sing this song in the Ukraine, you will earn yourself five years in prison.
It is a criminal offense to "deny the criminal character of the communist totalitarian regime". When it comes to Eastern European game developers expressing approval of things like GamerGate, I think it is critical to keep this in mind. IMO, many if not most of them viewed it from the perspective of passionate anti-Communists witnessing an internet squabble where one side smell like communists. I'm not saying that hatred for all things even vaguely communist that permeates these countries is right or justified. But it is what it is, and I think it's critical that people understand the context of how these political discussions in gaming are perceived by Eastern European developers. When someone says, "SJW" here, people eye roll a bit. But when you say that to a someone in Poland, there's going to be an eyebrow raised. The reality is that "social justice" types on twitter and the like tend to have communist leanings. Heck, I have communist leanings myself. It's natural when you live in a country with universal healthcare and great welfare systems and strong labour laws and the like. But it's really important to understand how a lot of people in Eastern Europe think about these things. Adrian Chmielarz has often spoken of growing up under communism and their "propaganda and lies".
I've seen nothing to indicate that Adrian Chmielarz is sexist or racist or supportive of internet harassment in general. I think you would find that many, many developers in Poland and Ukraine and other such countries would have similar feelings to him. They're outsiders who see these things as a culture war thing happening in places like America, and their sentiments on the subject should be viewed in the light of a culture that distrusts anything even vaguely communist or excessively "left wing". Anyone who participates in harassment or directly in any sort of attack campaign should be called to account for that. But I think that people like Adrian Chmielarz simply don't fall into that category. He's clean as far as I can tell. He's not afraid to tell the "GamerGate types" that they're flat-out wrong about things like politics in gaming.
https://medium.com/@adrianchm/are-video-games-political-9da521f0b27f
His critique and defense of Tale of Tales is extremely good reading. He's the absolute opposite of the hatred and anti-intellectualism associated with the worst elements of the modern gaming audience. You know, the people who celebrate games they don't like flopping because the developers "deserved it because they tried to inject politics" and all that horrible nonsense. GG has morphed into internet idiots running around gloating that Tacoma flopped on Steam. That's the modern face of GG. Horrible people screaming about an imagined "war on difficulty" and other assorted madness in between bouts of spite. Adrian Chmielarz, is to my knowledge, nothing like that.
http://www.theastronauts.com/2015/06/what-really-happened-to-tale-of-tales-sunset/
He should be judged on his deeds and actions. Not this extremely hazy guilt by association stuff. My impression based on following his work for some years is that he is a very nice man who would never knowingly harass anyone. If people have evidence to the contrary please bring it forward so we can work with something. Reevaluate. Otherwise it seems to me that a very talented and open-minded developer is being passive-aggressively smeared and their entire studio is being painted with the same brush.
I know, "Oh, great Dr. Carrol is raving about communists again." This is topical, I assure you. When Wolfenstein II was released, some prominent Eastern European game developers on twitter expressed their distaste for the game because... You guessed it, BJ pals around with communist agitators. I am sure that countries like Ukraine and Poland have their share of racism and sexism and things like that. (Who can forget Techland's "feminist whore" scandal. But in this particular context, when it comes to politics in gaming you have to interpret these things in the light of politics that often stray into socialism or communism. Communist symbols are banned in the Ukraine. If you sing this song in the Ukraine, you will earn yourself five years in prison.
It is a criminal offense to "deny the criminal character of the communist totalitarian regime". When it comes to Eastern European game developers expressing approval of things like GamerGate, I think it is critical to keep this in mind. IMO, many if not most of them viewed it from the perspective of passionate anti-Communists witnessing an internet squabble where one side smell like communists. I'm not saying that hatred for all things even vaguely communist that permeates these countries is right or justified. But it is what it is, and I think it's critical that people understand the context of how these political discussions in gaming are perceived by Eastern European developers. When someone says, "SJW" here, people eye roll a bit. But when you say that to a someone in Poland, there's going to be an eyebrow raised. The reality is that "social justice" types on twitter and the like tend to have communist leanings. Heck, I have communist leanings myself. It's natural when you live in a country with universal healthcare and great welfare systems and strong labour laws and the like. But it's really important to understand how a lot of people in Eastern Europe think about these things. Adrian Chmielarz has often spoken of growing up under communism and their "propaganda and lies".
I've seen nothing to indicate that Adrian Chmielarz is sexist or racist or supportive of internet harassment in general. I think you would find that many, many developers in Poland and Ukraine and other such countries would have similar feelings to him. They're outsiders who see these things as a culture war thing happening in places like America, and their sentiments on the subject should be viewed in the light of a culture that distrusts anything even vaguely communist or excessively "left wing". Anyone who participates in harassment or directly in any sort of attack campaign should be called to account for that. But I think that people like Adrian Chmielarz simply don't fall into that category. He's clean as far as I can tell. He's not afraid to tell the "GamerGate types" that they're flat-out wrong about things like politics in gaming.
https://medium.com/@adrianchm/are-video-games-political-9da521f0b27f
His critique and defense of Tale of Tales is extremely good reading. He's the absolute opposite of the hatred and anti-intellectualism associated with the worst elements of the modern gaming audience. You know, the people who celebrate games they don't like flopping because the developers "deserved it because they tried to inject politics" and all that horrible nonsense. GG has morphed into internet idiots running around gloating that Tacoma flopped on Steam. That's the modern face of GG. Horrible people screaming about an imagined "war on difficulty" and other assorted madness in between bouts of spite. Adrian Chmielarz, is to my knowledge, nothing like that.
http://www.theastronauts.com/2015/06/what-really-happened-to-tale-of-tales-sunset/
He should be judged on his deeds and actions. Not this extremely hazy guilt by association stuff. My impression based on following his work for some years is that he is a very nice man who would never knowingly harass anyone. If people have evidence to the contrary please bring it forward so we can work with something. Reevaluate. Otherwise it seems to me that a very talented and open-minded developer is being passive-aggressively smeared and their entire studio is being painted with the same brush.
Yeah,it kinda reminded me of the Witch town in Overdose(if I remember correctly)
I'd like to see Clive Barker's work translated into more videogames.
I would not say that universal healthcare or free education is communist, just a good mix of social values incorporated into capitalist system, which is a perfect combination in my opinion of running a country, Scandinavia style. But perhaps I just refuse to believe that communism has anything good to offer, because of my family's experience.
And you are very right about there being a distrust of anything left-wing in these countries. The major left-wing party in Poland is composed straight of prominent post-communist officials, and it is pretty much the case in rest of the region, were these people did not magically disappear in 1989/1991 and still have an influence on modern politics. This makes any leftist changes hard because everything is branded as being red and commie. We're like the typical American rednecks who shout "COMMIE" at everything left-leaning. People are scared of these ideas and many believe that the state should not interfere with people's lives, and its only job is to leave them the fuck alone.
Also, some people treat this social justice ideology as something that Western World does to recompensate its colonial system from the past when they destroyed multiple African/Asian/Latin-American states and millions of human lives from 1600 to 1950. Poland being colonized itself by Germans and Russians feels to have more in common with the persecuted PoC minorities instead of being part of this "privileged white race". Woman rights were never the issue here also, they got their voting rights in 1918 and currently, Poland is ranked fifth in Europe as the best place for a woman to work (of course the top 4 are Scandinavian).
Sorry for this off-topic but I believe these things are worth discussing, maybe not an appropriate thread for that, but as long as we do it in a cultural manner I suppose its okay.
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So would I, and the very least it would look premature twisted.
Game looks really great. Not a fan of Vanishing of Ethan Carter but this game has me interested.
Don't actually give a damn if the co-founder is a GamerGater. I think you Americans shouldn't really appraise international devs (for example from Eastern Europe) by the same standards as you do your domestic devs. Context is key here and other places have a different socio-cultural history so expecting the same (decent) behaviour of everyone around the globe is idealistic.
Don't actually give a damn if the co-founder is a GamerGater. I think you Americans shouldn't really appraise international devs (for example from Eastern Europe) by the same standards as you do your domestic devs. Context is key here and other places have a different socio-cultural history so expecting the same (decent) behaviour of everyone around the globe is idealistic.