Winning a boss fight- only to lose in the following cutscene

[Deleted member 1258]

It's hard to think of anything in games more straight up unsatisfying than struggling and failing to beat a boss, repeating the fight over and over, and having finally conquered it only to be told that your efforts were in vain. I noticed this happening quite a few times in Xenoblade Chronicles 2. It feels like the game is actively making a mockery of your effort. Why even give the player a challenge if they aren't even allowed to win?

 

[DrArchon]

I feel like this was the de facto ending for 90% of the arcade mode runs in the early BlazBlue games.

Fucking sucks.

 

[Jawmuncher]

While not the same thing. I had the reverse happen. In call of duty 3. I died at the last level, however I died basically right at the cutscene trigger where we all won and were happy. It was so jarring and I'll never forget it.

So I can have understand why the opposite can have the same effect.

 

[Mirage]

It's even more jarring when you find the fight easy and then it shows you being beat afterwards.

 

[Deleted member 1258]

I feel like this was the de facto ending for 90% of the arcade mode runs in the early BlazBlue games.

Fucking sucks.

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I played Central Fiction recently and from what I can tell that's literally everyone's arcade ending.

 

[DrArchon]

I played Central Fiction recently and from what I can tell that's literally everyone's arcade ending.

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I never kept up after Continuum Shift, so I didn't want to assume anything about the later games.

I just remember being able to double-perfect v-13 in arcade mode and have the character follow up with some version of "She's too strong!" when I played Calamity Trigger.

Spoiler

Everyone except Hakumen, because he's a badass.

 

[Waggles]

Ah, I thought this was gonna be a qte bitching thread.

 

[Deleted member 1258]

I never kept up after Continuum Shift, so I didn't want to assume anything about the later games.

I just remember being able to double-perfect v-13 in arcade mode and have the character follow up with some version of "She's too strong!" when I played Calamity Trigger.

Spoiler

Everyone except Hakumen, because he's a badass.

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It's the same here. Nine is a serious pain in the ass too because every time she lands a normal she stacks a buff for her specials. And even after trying like 6 times to best her and finally the character is like "damn it, this is impossible..." and Nine just says something like "you were a waste of time" and just leaves.

Fun!

 

[Kthulhu]

I'd honestly prefer being forced to lose like when you first fight the final boss in MGR

 

[Deleted member 1258]

I'd honestly prefer being forced to lose like when you first fight the final boss in MGR

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I still hated this because I didn't take any damage the first time I fought him, only for it to fade to black and next thing I know Raiden is getting his ass kicked

 

[DrArchon]

I'd honestly prefer being forced to lose like when you first fight the final boss in MGR

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My go-to favorite example of this being done right is usually the very first "boss" of Golden Sun 1 where Saturos and Menardi just stomp your shit into the ground in like 5 seconds.

Makes it obvious that you can't win without dragging it out for too long.

 

[shan780]

yeah, this really annoys me

why even let me fight if I'm meant to lose?

 

[mute]

Xenoblade 2 had a few of these, or vice versa.

 

[sandboxgod]

Funny you brought up XC2 but yeah I feel you on this. It always feel weird to work your buns off, win the fight, and then see your characters lose in the cutscene. Just feels like bad writing too me. DQX1 does it too at one point and it feels bad

[edit] Mind you, I loved XC2 and beat it twice pretty much

 

[BackwardCap]

I think my first notable instance of this was in Kingdom Hearts 1 against Squall in Traverse Town. At least you get a dialogue change for winning.

 

[sandboxgod]

Wish this thread had a poll- like does people feel like that detracts from the story? I cant fathom why they do these things beyond "Hey, we need an excuse to make you fight this same bad guy again later". Not every game makes you fight the boss again but some do....

 

[Jintor]

i hate this.

if i'm gonna lose in a cutscene just make me lose the fight as well. games been doing hopeless ass boss fights for years. (But let me know so I don't spend my mega potions or whatever)

 

[Frankie Williamson]

Mass Effect 3 and Kai Leng. Got real annoying real quick.

 

[Deepwater]

I like it when games stops you at like 30% health left before ending the fight and the boss goes "gotta blast!" or nukes you

 

[ASaiyan]

Yeah, this is really bad design. If you don't want the boss character to be defeated yet, just have them do a heel turn and pull an "I'll be baaaaaack!" Rather than just rob the player of their agency and have the narrative undo their efforts.

I remember from a Dunkey video that there's a boss in AC Origins where this happens roughly three times in direct succession, before the game finally allows the boss to die in - what else? - another non-interactive cutscene. At that point it surpasses annoying and just becomes hilarious, lol.

 

[night814]

Lol just fell off the ledge fighting a super boss TWICE in Xenoblade2 last night. Almost made me stop but I was convinced I could win and I did.

 

[808s & Villainy]

My go-to favorite example of this being done right is usually the very first "boss" of Golden Sun 1 where Saturos and Menardi just stomp your shit into the ground in like 5 seconds.

Makes it obvious that you can't win without dragging it out for too long.

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Yeah these fights only work when you lose quick enough to not have wasted consumables thinking you could actually win

 

[theotherMittens]

Demon's Souls did it right. Gives you a boss you're ~probably~ not gonna beat in the tutorial, then if you do win gives you a cutscene where something else just kills you.

 

[Deleted member 41931]

Playing Xenoblade 2 right now and yeah, it's annoying. It feels like the game part is an after thought when this is done. Either design your story or mechanics around it.

 

[Rhaknar]

literally just happened to me earlier vs

Spoiler

Nelo Angelo

in DMC1 heh.

And yes its always awful and yes Xenoblade 2 had a TON of these.

 

[DrArchon]

Yeah these fights only work when you lose quick enough to not have wasted consumables thinking you could actually win

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Or there're no consumables to waste (either because of the genre or how early in the game it is).

Another good example: Vile in MMX.

 

[Aters]

Trails the thread?

 

[NSESN]

Doesn't a lot of the xenoblade scenes that this happes only have you fight until the enemy reaches a certain HP, specially later in the game?

 

[F4r0_Atak]

For bosses like these, game directors should rethink the objective for these bosses. Instead of doing "beat this boss guy/girl", they should do something like "survive this fight of X amount of time" especially if in the next scene your character is beaten by him/her/it.

 

[Master Chuuster]

ugh Xenoblade Chronicles 2

 

[Jamrock User]

The dragon ball z ps2 games..ugh..

 

[KillLaCam]

Yeah they should just make something happen in the fight to make you lose instead of winning then losing in the cutscene

 

[Dnomla]

This has never bothered me honestly. There's always going to have to be some suspension of disbelief between story/cutscenes and game play. Never knew such a weird thing bothered so many people.

 

[Rayman not Ray]

One might call it... ludonarrative dissonance.

But seriously, it's such an easy thing to do right, and so vital for good video game storytelling, that it's shocking how often people fuck it up. I don't find it so annoying on its own, but it's often a sign that the game isn't really interested in intertwining gameplay and narrative, and that almost always means a bad narrative.

 

[Syril]

I feel like this was the de facto ending for 90% of the arcade mode runs in the early BlazBlue games.

Fucking sucks.

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That was really a Continuum Shift issue because how will the players think Hazama is a badass unless he invalidates 90% of the cast right? Calamity Trigger actually had backstory scenes for a lot of the arcade mode endings.

 

[goldenpp73]

Xenoblade 2 in a nutshell.

 

[mas8705]

Even if you go flawless in this fight, Sora still faints against Leon.

 

[AztecComplex]

"It was all a dream" sucks even more. At least "losing" doesnt erase that all of your efforts did happen.

That ending of 1992's Magical Quest Starring Mickey Mouse still hurts now as much as it hurt when I was a kid. I hated it so much even though I loved the game.

 

[Le Dude]

For bosses like these, game directors should rethink the objective for these bosses. Instead of doing "beat this boss guy/girl", they should do something like "survive this fight of X amount of time" especially if in the next scene your character is beaten by him/her/it.

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Yeah, something like "Get the boss's health down, but boss uses a potion and stops 'going easy' or powers up or something and then swamps absolutely swamps the player without giving them the chance to waste time/potions/items."

 

[sandboxgod]

This has never bothered me honestly. There's always going to have to be some suspension of disbelief between story/cutscenes and game play. Never knew such a weird thing bothered so many people.

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Did you play XC2? Because if you did beat it then I got nothing

 

[massoluk]

Oh man, so many of Xenoblade 2 fights.

Also, Dynasty Warriors have a few of these. Sometime the Wu campaign feels like a parody. Their main generals keep dying the entire campaign

 

[hibikase]

Oh yeah, nothing worse than to finally beat a boss you had trouble with, only to end up with being the loser in the narrative. Like, why even have that battle then?

 

[KushalaDaora]

I prefer with how Final Fantasy IX handle this with Beatrix. It plays out like normal boss battle, but when you 'deplete' her health, she use attack that leaves the entire party in 1 HP. At least the transition between gameplay and cutscene are not as jarring.

 

[DrArchon]

For bosses like these, game directors should rethink the objective for these bosses. Instead of doing "beat this boss guy/girl", they should do something like "survive this fight of X amount of time" especially if in the next scene your character is beaten by him/her/it.

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A good example of this would be the missions where the Black Knight shows up in Fire Emblem: Path of Radiance (and I assume Radiant Dawn, but I never played it).

He's this super unit in a SRPG that can't be beat and will kill you if you try to fight him. The solution: don't fucking fight him and just run the clock.

The recreate this well in a bunch of Fire Emblems Heroes missions too.

 

[FunMouse]

Xenoblade 2 yup, Curse you Malos!

 

[Mechaplum]

This is why I don't give a rat's ass about the story and villians anymore in XB2. Not a dealbreaker though.

 

[Procheno]

Lol just fell off the ledge fighting a super boss TWICE in Xenoblade2 last night. Almost made me stop but I was convinced I could win and I did.

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You believed in the power of friendship

 

[Deleted member 1258]

For bosses like these, game directors should rethink the objective for these bosses. Instead of doing "beat this boss guy/girl", they should do something like "survive this fight of X amount of time" especially if in the next scene your character is beaten by him/her/it.

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Or better yet, if it's already decided that Im gonna lose, just don't waste my time with making me fight the boss? Like I posted in the OP, why give me a challenge I can't overcome?

 

[Neoleo2143]

Doesn't a lot of the xenoblade scenes that this happes only have you fight until the enemy reaches a certain HP, specially later in the game?

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Yeah, the encounters you don't win in XC2 are usually HP thresholds. The fights where you fully drain an enemy's HP usually mean a win for the protagonists.

 

[Syril]

Even if you go flawless in this fight, Sora still faints against Leon.

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Yeah but it does change the scene to acknowledge you beating him. It's better than the whole thing where you win and then it pays a scene of the villain wrecking you anyway.

A good example of this would be the missions where the Black Knight shows up in Fire Emblem: Path of Radiance (and I assume Radiant Dawn, but I never played it).

He's this super unit in a SRPG that can't be beat and will kill you if you try to fight him. The solution: don't fucking fight him and just run the clock./

Apparently they actually put in a scene in his first battle if you somehow manage to attack him with Ike and survive where Mist flips the fuck out on Ike for almost getting himself killed.

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