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Oct 27, 2017
999
yes My family still use 1080P TV (we can't drop 2000$ for TV) so S will just what my brother need to play next gen Games
What TVs are you looking at that are $2K? You can get the best bang for the buck 4K HDR tv for $500 right now (TCL 6 Series 55") at Best Buy.

Not saying that during all this people should be like going out and spending money but unless you want a huge OLED 4k TVs are cheap.
 

Fredrik

Member
Oct 27, 2017
9,003
Granted, I haven't seen many content in 4k, so maybe that's why I think 1080p in a 4k tv is fine.
I've seen a ton and I would agree, 4K resolution means very little to me on a 65" TV sitting 3 meters away at least. But I think XSX will have higher framerates and that means a lot. And ray-tracing will be a huge advantage if only XSX can do that.
 
Oct 27, 2017
20,760
How much of the target demo do you believe are low income and have prohibitively slow internet speed?

The target demo is anyone who would choose the xbox one S over the X or a PS4 over thr PS4 Pro... which is the vast majority of the console market. And more and more this demo is choosing to download games rather than buy them physically. As a result the used game market is quickly being replaced by services like gamepass that offer cheap access to a wide selection of games.
More and more of them are choosing digital but it's still roughly 50%. And a world without a used game market is awful, especially since we wouldn't be able to protest bad business practices like Gearbox under paying staff and not giving promised bonuses by buying used. That's way too much control in the hands of publishers for me personally. Not to mention all digital means you don't really own your games and they can be taken away anytime, delisted or just straight up not available. That's a death knell for games preservation on consoles imo, and something we would all regret 5-10 years from now.
 

Deleted member 56752

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
May 15, 2019
8,699
Because that console will stop recieving games in a year? The new console will be viable for an entire generation?
There's really no indication that's true. Honestly. They could just as easily all (devs/pubs) release 30 fps versions on xbox one or ps4 at 30 fps/1080p or 30 fps/720p. We have no idea. Things can scale, hence the argument for Lockhart in the first place
 

Governergrimm

Member
Jun 25, 2019
6,549
Yea $600 USD means $800 in CAD before taxes, which is a ridiculous amount to spend when their games will be on PC as well. I would just buy a PS5 and be done with it, I can play Halo Infinite on the PC no problem.

What a fucking joke if they target $599. It doesn't matter if they have Lockhart undercutting the PS5, it's massively behind the PS5 in performance.
Agreed if they hit $600 I'll look into PC upgrades
 

Piggus

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,697
Oregon
As long as the Series S/Lockhart has the same fast IO and CPU, the GPU difference shouldn't matter too much In terms of the impact on third party games for Series X/PS5. The REAL negative is MS still making games for One X/One S, because it significantly limits game design around the SSD.

GPU-bound games are going to look pretty muddy and possibly run pretty poorly on Lockhart. That's a massive difference in GPU power, and scaling down to 1080p isn't going to be enough for a lot of games.
 

Fezan

Member
Oct 26, 2017
3,274
What TVs are you looking at that are $2K? You can get the best bang for the buck 4K HDR tv for $500 right now (TCL 6 Series 55") at Best Buy.

Not saying that during all this people should be like going out and spending money but unless you want a huge OLED 4k TVs are cheap.
Not even that I don't think even Chinese brands are making 1080p tv's anymore. Anyone buying a new tv will have 4k. 4K tv starts at 300$
 

JaggedSac

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,988
Burbs of Atlanta
No RT means engines have to have parallel RT and non RT options. Which means not many games will have RT as a Fundamental part of the game, only ever an add on?

It is very unlikely that ray tracing will be a fundamental part of any game on these boxes. They just aren't powerful enough. Even the XSX. The big commonly used engines will have ray tracing features be optional and toggle-able.
 

Kida

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,899
There's really no indication that's true. Honestly. They could just as easily all (devs/pubs) release 30 fps versions on xbox one or ps4 at 30 fps/1080p or 30 fps/720p. We have no idea. Things can scale, hence the argument for Lockhart in the first place
Games are not going to be able to scale all the way back to 2013 hardware (once developers start designing games around the new consoles)
 

headspawn

Member
Oct 27, 2017
14,608
There's really no indication that's true. Honestly. They could just as easily all (devs/pubs) release 30 fps versions on xbox one or ps4 at 30 fps/1080p or 30 fps/720p. We have no idea. Things can scale, hence the argument for Lockhart in the first place

We have an indication that it's true in regards to first party titles, it would be pure guesswork to speculate what thirdparty developers do.
 

Tappin Brews

#TeamThierry
Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,873
Minecraft RT is an anomaly, we will not see many fully path traced games. It will be 540p native upscaled to 720 - 1080p depending on how good DirectML superresolution is.

iirc, the series x minecraft demo was built in a short amount of time, is unoptimized AND runs between 30-60 fps. I could definitely see the series x running it at some resolution significantly higher than 1080 (likely variable) and at 30 fps locked, which may translate to a much higher resolution than 540p series s version, feature complete (path tracing). Also, i could see directML playing a big role in BOTH versions
 

MrKlaw

Member
Oct 25, 2017
33,053
It is very unlikely that ray tracing will be a fundamental part of any game on these boxes. They just aren't powerful enough. Even the XSX. The big commonly used engines will have ray tracing features be optional and toggle-able.

'yeah kind of a shame but realistic. so probably not much different from supporting a 2080 and a 1050/1060. Pretty doable.
 

Smoothcb

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,081
A Lockhart would be great to keep at my Mom's house for extended visits. She has a 1080p TV and I don't see her upgrading anytime soon
 

nekkid

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
21,823
Given their relationship with UE it's reasonable to assume they consulted Epic to get a third party take on the practicalities of this.
 

Trup1aya

Literally a train safety expert
Member
Oct 25, 2017
21,356
Theres a difference between offering Game Pass as an alternative option for budget gaming and requiring Game Pass as the only option for budget gaming, though. People like options, and locking out budget options on the budget model isnt a smart move. Tbh I dont see them skipping the drive, theres just too little of an upside for MS compared to the downside

Sure people like options. But when given the option, more and more people are choosing digital. We see it in every medium and this isn't going to slow down for gaming. It's already past 50% and people didn't think it would hit even 20% when this gen started.

Theres a massive upside for going digital only, mainly, that profit margins are much higher because there's no retailer to split the revenue with.


More and more of them are choosing digital but it's still roughly 50%. And a world without a used game market is awful, especially since we wouldn't be able to protest bad business practices like Gearbox under paying staff and not giving promised bonuses by buying used. That's way too much control in the hands of publishers for me personally. Not to mention all digital means you don't really own your games and they can be taken away anytime, delisted or just straight up not available. That's a death knell for games preservation on consoles imo, and something we would all regret 5-10 years from now.

I'm not really speaking on how awful or great gaming will be without used. I'm saying consumers are increasingly choosing to avoid the used game market to the point that used game retailers are at the brink of death.

People keep mentioning that games can be taken away at anytime, but I've got digital games from 2006 that I can still play on my console. In that same time frame, I've had physical discs that got scratched and are now worthless. Even delisted games that I've purchased, I've still been able to redownload.

Digital can be a useful tool for preservation and to continue to paint it in a purely evil light is disingenuous, imo.
 

metalslimer

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
9,563
Well I guess we wont see any gameplay uses of Ray tracing anytime soon.

But with all the new techniques like DLSS I think even a 4TF GPU should be reasonable enough to perform next gen games at a reconstructed 1080p.
 

NitX

Lead Developer
Verified
Aug 20, 2018
158
As long as the Series S/Lockhart has the same fast IO and CPU, the GPU difference shouldn't matter too much In terms of the impact on third party games for Series X/PS5. The REAL negative is MS still making games for One X/One S, because it significantly limits game design around the SSD.

GPU-bound games are going to look pretty muddy and possibly run pretty poorly on Lockhart. That's a massive difference in GPU power, and scaling down to 1080p isn't going to be enough for a lot of games.

True but MS said cross gen 1st party will be a thing for 1-2 years and i am going to say its going to be closer to 1 than 2. Another thing to note is most games that come out the first year or 2 are almost always games that started as last gen games or are made conservatively because majority of it was developed before the hardware was finalized. These would probably not be impacted as much from SSD usage as one would expect but yeah I would have preferred if not all games coming out the first year or 2 were cross gen.
 

sacrament

Banned
Dec 16, 2019
2,119
Considering the economic conditions, this may be a pretty good move for price sensitive folks who want an improved gaming experience than what they get from the XOX, but want some quality of life improvements (ssd, etc), and access to improved features.

But I wouldn't look past the economics - things may get worse and price sensitivity could be super critical this holiday season (if folks even have jobs...).
 

metalslimer

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
9,563
I think that person is saying a feature the game play itself couldn't be done without. Perhaps some dynamic lighting required to perform some sort of action. Not sure what that would be though.

Right, I'm sure in the future some teams will be creative enough when they have enough power to do something like a puzzle game based on path traced light.
 

Piggus

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,697
Oregon
True but MS said cross gen 1st party will be a thing for 1-2 years and i am going to say its going to be closer to 1 than 2. Another thing to note is most games that come out the first year or 2 are almost always games that started as last gen games or are made conservatively because majority of it was developed before the hardware was finalized. These would probably not be impacted as much from SSD usage as one would expect but yeah I would have preferred if not all games coming out the first year or 2 were cross gen.

I hope you're right! I don't intend on getting an Xbox, but I do plan on playing their games on PC.
 

Ebtesam

Self-Requested Ban
Member
Apr 1, 2018
4,638
What TVs are you looking at that are $2K? You can get the best bang for the buck 4K HDR tv for $500 right now (TCL 6 Series 55") at Best Buy.

Not saying that during all this people should be like going out and spending money but unless you want a huge OLED 4k TVs are cheap.
not in My country TVs are expensive here the cheapest (old model) price for 4K tv from a good company is 1000$ (3k)
 
Last edited:

DocH1X1

Banned
Apr 16, 2019
1,133
True but MS said cross gen 1st party will be a thing for 1-2 years and i am going to say its going to be closer to 1 than 2. Another thing to note is most games that come out the first year or 2 are almost always games that started as last gen games or are made conservatively because majority of it was developed before the hardware was finalized. These would probably not be impacted as much from SSD usage as one would expect but yeah I would have preferred if not all games coming out the first year or 2 were cross gen.
Appreciate the insight !
 
Dec 26, 2019
402
So true.

XSX has 20% more TF than PS5 - "TF don't really matter"
Lockhart has 4TF GPU - "devs are hamstrung by the lack of power!"
There is a big difference between both consoles being just 20% apart or one having 1/3 of the power of the others. This is a false analogy.

Especially if Lockhart also has less memory. It's going to hurt multi plat games. That's a fact.
 

eathdemon

Member
Oct 27, 2017
9,679
Graphically maybe. Hopefully it'll keep the CPU, RAM and SSD so the games boot and run just as good, just with all 4K textures and RTX turned off.
its a x1x with a way better cpu, faster ram, and a ssd. honestly if they hit their 299 target, they will kill it given current econamic conditions. ms took a bet, and its paying off for them.
 

Tappin Brews

#TeamThierry
Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,873
I thought I read infinite uses it? Isn't that soon?

not at all confirmed. this comes from a video where they are talking about infinite and ray tracing is brought up. the developer may have just been talking about what ray tracing offers in general - its not clear that he is talking about RT in infinite
 

cgpartlow

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,005
Seattle, WA
You think XB1 users wont be able to play Halo Infinite with XSX users?

They obviously will, but that game was built as a current gen game. You might see some early cross gen games, that are the same sku with crossplay. I don't doubt that or am I arguing against that.

What I am saying is as the cycle gets going cross gen games will be built for the new consoles and separate ports will be built for the older consoles. You think the next generation is going to be different than the last two generations where this happened? You think in 2022 the main developed version of FIFA will be the PS4/XB1 version and the new consoles with just have a few graphical bells and whistles? Especially 2 years down the road, the Series S is going to be super cheap with bundles.
 

FullNelson

Member
Jan 28, 2019
1,319
I'm still rocking a 1080p TV so I don't care about the flop wars. If Lockhart can deliver a solid 1080 next-gen experience, that would be a very good contender for now, until I can afford the step up to PS5 or XSX in a couple years.
 
Oct 27, 2017
9,427
VRS has nothing to do with my comment. My comment is related to raw performance and its not taking into account any other software optimization. This is information provided directly from AMD and that's just for RDNA1, RDNA2 should slightly increase that due to IPC improvements. I still don't get what's the point of your argument.
[
I made no mention of VRS, just AMD's claims that how RDNA2 operates will result in a 50% performance increase based on how instructions are executed on this particular architecture vs GCN.

A TF is a TF. You all are posting articles about 50% performance in increase. Which is related to how much power it runs off. A teraflop in Rnda 1 is the same amount of computation in Rdna2. It doesn't make 4 teraflops turn into 6 teraflops or equivalent to. I was assuming you didn't mean the prior and mentioned vrs as it can help with mitagating heavy workloads to become more efficient.
 

MysticGon

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 31, 2017
7,285
I can see it All-digital and 512 GB SSD (PS5 will have 800 GB so it's not that far away).

Good point. Explains why they made those ssd memory cards.

A 4TF, 500GB internal storage, with no disc drive in a smaller form factor to put thus into a near category of affordability. If it launches at $299 I'll buy the shit out of one.

Edit: hell it could even position itself as a companion product to PS5, like Switch. The clever dogs at Microsoft.