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RoKKeR

Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,375
$499 would be a bold price for the XSX give the BOM.
Interesting. How do you square the cost of the BOM with Phil's comments about them not getting caught out on price again? Could that have been in reference to this multi-tiered approach they're going with? Enthusiast vs. entry level, etc.

Really interested to see how these things shake out with regards to price.
 

nillapuddin

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,240
As cute as it would be for it to be a cube, I really don't see physically how that would be possible. I think a traditional rectangle is more likely.

I also think it will have plenty of room in the market. Microsoft can stop building (if they haven't already) Xbox One S/X consoles all together and just roll with that instead as an entry point.
 

Cyclonesweep

Banned
Oct 29, 2017
7,690
As cute as it would be for it to be a cube, I really don't see physically how that would be possible. I think a traditional rectangle is more likely.

I also think it will have plenty of room in the market. Microsoft can stop building (if they haven't already) Xbox One S/X consoles all together and just roll with that instead as an entry point.
If everything is custom like it normally is a cube is definitely possible.
 

iareharSon

Member
Oct 30, 2017
8,939
Xbox gets knocked for adhering to the same principles as the most powerful gaming platform, PC. Somehow developing games for a spectrum of specs, as PC has been doing since the beginning of time, is bottlenecking the next generation. Makes sense.
 

Garrett 2U

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
5,511
That's a massive difference in power requirements

Xbox One X is 6tflops, Xbox One is 1.3
Assassin's Creed Odyssey Maxes at Full 4k on the One X and 900p on the One. Both at around 30fps
So over 3 times the power makes can get you the resolution difference, if you are also halving the frame rate? Zero issues.

Xbox One X has a faster CPU (2.3 Ghz vs 1.75 GHz) and faster RAM (320 GB/s GDDR5 vs 68 GB/s DDR3). As well as a GPU gap. It's not a remotely fair comparison.
 

Jerm411

Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,014
Clinton, MO
Interesting. How do you square the cost of the BOM with Phil's comments about them not getting caught out on price again? Could that have been in reference to this multi-tiered approach they're going with? Enthusiast vs. entry level, etc.

Really interested to see how these things shake out with regards to price.

When's he talked about price it's only been in reference to the Series X....

I don't think it'd be a good look to have all these talking points about the Series X and then say well what I was actually referring to his Lockhart....
 

Deleted member 23046

Account closed at user request
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
6,876
Of course, and I bet your average Joe doesn't even know the word teraflop, but this idea of "Lockhart is less powerful than the One X" is rather widespread across forums / social media. They'll be stuck between downplaying Teraflops or confusing people about what Lockhart is (if it ends up being 4TF, that is).
I am not sure it really counts, compared to what non-endorsed devs could say about it, at least from a creative standpoint (because commercially we could have two times less power on both side that it would still make sense for publishers).

During the Lockhart reveal we'll probably see one or two Ubisoft and EA executives telling us that maintaining two software branches for the same game on the same platform is costless, effortless as a single recompiling and without any compromises on the game design.

After that it depends on who would talk freely and also if the first batch of PS5 exclusives (first-party or not) would show a clear difference between baseline.
 

Cyclonesweep

Banned
Oct 29, 2017
7,690
Xbox One X has a faster CPU (2.3 Ghz vs 1.75 GHz) and faster RAM (320 GB/s GDDR5 vs 68 GB/s DDR3). As well as a GPU gap. It's not a remotely fair comparison.
Which is why the One X is over 3 times as powerful as the original Xbox.

My point is it's very very possible to lower the resolution, frame rate and reduce the ray tracing and have games work well on both consoles with the differences
 

Agent X

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,141
New Jersey
Yup.

Lockhart is potentially the best competitive advantage Microsoft has ever had with Xbox, and it's wild to see people in this thread dismiss it as a "waste of resources."

There's a very real possibility that we look back at Sony launching with only a ~$500 model as a major strategic misstep in this economic environment. This forum is not representative of the larger market, as has been proven time and time again.

Yeah, it's a crying shame that Sony hasn't considered producing a video game system to satisfy the general masses for under $300. They really ought to make such a product.
 

Cyclonesweep

Banned
Oct 29, 2017
7,690
Yeah, it's a crying shame that Sony hasn't considered producing a video game system to satisfy the general masses for under $300. They really ought to make such a product.
We are talking about next gen. When the next gen hype gets up, Microsoft having am entry level next gen console is a great idea. Unless you think Sony and multiplatform devs are going to keep making next gen games for PS4 for years to come
 

OtterX

Member
Mar 12, 2020
1,795
The Series S is going to clean up this holiday. Man, with the current look of the economy it's the perfect time to announce this thing. Just look at the coverage that the new cheaper iPhone SE is getting. MS is really nailing the timing.
Yup. I'm probably getting one, given the current circumstances. My 46" 1080p tv still works great. I can always upgrade to the X down the line.

Lockhart will sell like hot cakes.
 

VeePs

Prophet of Truth
Member
Oct 25, 2017
17,357
$499 would be a bold price for the XSX give the BOM.

tenor.gif


Hopefully they choose to be bold lol.
 

MysteryM

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,748
If you are pushing a quarter of the pixels, then 4tf sounds fine. Resolution has been scalable on pc for years, lots of modern games use dynamic resolution to hold frame rates.

I actually don't see it as a problem for devs.
 

Deleted member 20297

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
6,943
I feel the specs for Lockhart are heavily inspired by data that MS gathered. So they went to build the best console possible for XSX under certain constraints and then made the best hardware given existing game perf data to scale the machine accordingly for an attractive price.
 

OneBadMutha

Member
Nov 2, 2017
6,059
Doesn't seem like a Lockhart investment is worth it for anyone who will be using the xbox regularly for years to come. The extra 100-200 dollars Series X is worth it.

My kid isn't getting Series X. No reason when he's got a 720P TV in his room. Lockhart is perfectly good for kids without jobs or those who don't value 4K. A huge portion of the gaming market only plays multi-player games. Loading times and framerates matter much more than resolution or raytracing to multi-player gamers.
 

Cyclonesweep

Banned
Oct 29, 2017
7,690
I feel the specs for Lockhart are heavily inspired by data that MS gathered. So they went to build the best console possible for XSX under certain constraints and then made the best hardware given existing game perf data to scale the machine accordingly for an attractive price.
Yep. It's all info they can gather from people gaming on PC. Probably also talked to a lot of devs. It's simple too "how low of specs could we go to have the games you want to build for next gen to be playable at a lower resolution" and then they built that
 

Baked Pigeon

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
7,087
Phoenix
I don't ever see people make an argument that lower PC specs hold back PC games, so why would Lockhart hold back XSX? Has it not already been proven that devs are willing and able to make scalable versions of their games for different hardware? Look no further than Xbox One X Enhanced titles. Some of y'all are acting real brand new.
 
Oct 28, 2017
27,071
What they are doing is something that strongly looks like stock clearing. There shouldn't be many if any One X's on shelves when the Series launches.

Software support for those that own the hardware can take place without selling the hardware anymore. Support is ending in 2021 which is about when most of the One X crowd should upgrade by then.
Series S at 300! Would replace Xbox One X and give better performance at a similar price while making people next gen ready. It only makes sense to stop selling the One X and have it replaced by a more capable next gen lower tier system at the same price.

This makes sense. I guess my expectations for Series S don't include a disc drive, which should cut a nice portion of the price (-$50) but also makes the One X a viable option for those looking BC and movie options. A


lso, if I'm honest even though I am well aware that TFs are not a valid measure of power capabilities, it makes me think that the Series S(4TF) is not that much more capable than a Xbox One X (6TF). The middle ground is very blurry from where I'm standing.

Halo Infinite
Series X: 4K60 /HDR 10 / Ray-Tracing
Xbox One X 4K30/ HDR 10

If this is accurate ( ...and it prolly aint) where does the Series S fit?
 

Deleted member 61469

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Nov 17, 2019
1,587
I think it's DOA at anything over $499 because I think that's the PS5 price...can't release a $550-$600 console esp. now, I don't care if Lockhart exists.

I agree. Unless games will run substantially better on XSX, I can't see anyone paying premium for a small resolution bump.

If PS5 positions itself between lockhart and XSX with a cheaper price and similar performance it's over for MS before it even began.
 

nillapuddin

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,240
If everything is custom like it normally is a cube is definitely possible.

I'm not trying to argue, but it still needs a fan, power supply, motherboard, heat sink, etc etc

Just because the Apu will be less powerful and a couple fewer modules of ram doesn't mean you can clear up 6 inches of space

XBOX-SERIES-X-g.jpg


Hey, if it does ended up being a cube it would be an engineering marvel, I just think it's a bit silly to assume it will be one.
 

MysteryM

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,748
I have one x, two Xbox ones. I'll have a series x day one and then a lockheart to replace the x. Yep, perfect.
 

RedHeat

Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,685
I agree. Unless games will run substantially better on XSX, I can't see anyone paying premium for a small resolution bump.

If PS5 positions itself between lockhart and XSX with a cheaper price and similar performance it's over for MS before it even began.
I don't agree with it being "over" for MS, but this is what I've been saying for a while
 

Anatole

Member
Mar 25, 2020
1,426
Sometimes I feel like you should have to earn a certification to post about tech specs in these threads. Not that everyone should be an expert, but there is a bare minimum for literacy. For example:

Resetera Teraflop Certified (aka, Bare Minimum You Should Know Before Using the Word Teraflop)
  1. Describe a floating point number qualitatively. How many bits does it typically occupy? What is the difference between a float and a double?
  2. Define an operation in the context of floating points.
  3. What does the SI unit 'tera' indicate?
  4. AMD produces two GPU architectures that are relevant to the discussion: RDNA and GCN. Identify a console that uses each.
  5. Imagine that you have two graphics cards, an RDNA card and a GCN card, in two otherwise identical PC setups. You read on the spec sheet that both have the property '6.0 Teraflops.' Which card would you expect to have better performance on a standard benchmark?
 

iareharSon

Member
Oct 30, 2017
8,939
Yeah, it's a crying shame that Sony hasn't considered producing a video game system to satisfy the general masses for under $300. They really ought to make such a product.

You're not wrong that previous generation consoles will continue to sell for the foreseeable future. They're cheap, have a huge library of existing titles, and will continue to get cross generation support for the first few years of the next generation.

Having said that, what you're alluding to is completely different than what Microsoft is supposedly doing. At the end of the day, the original PS4, XB1, PS4 Pro, and Xbox One X are dated. If Microsoft was moving forward with Xbox One X as its defacto entry level console, then we'd potentially have an issue because the bottlenecks would be across the board - as opposed to just the GPU.
 

Proven

Banned
Oct 29, 2017
5,841
Considering the history of 599, and the economy, anything over 499 is something I don't anticipate at all.
 

Raide

Banned
Oct 31, 2017
16,596
Generally though games nowadays are made with running on the lowest spec console in mind and if you have a PC you need to meet that spec or you won't be able to run it.
For development, they don't aim at the lowest, they just make sure it can scale well. Development is done on high-end systems and scales down if needed, not the other way around. Not sure why so many people think that games are developed for the lowest system first.
 

EvilBoris

Prophet of Truth - HDTVtest
Verified
Oct 29, 2017
16,678
A console maker isn't buying a 1TB SSD at volume pricing for a mass market device at a penny over $100. Most likely less than that.
Even if it is $100 to physically buy that component

You've got $200 to cover all of the other components, shipping, manufacture and retailer margin.
$299 for retail is an extreme lowball figure, that seems totally unrealistic. I'm happy to be proven wrong!

The Ps4 was estimated to cost $380 to make when it was being sold at $400, but a chunk of the components in the newxt gen machines are not subject to the moore's law rules of power (and thus cost reduction) , so you do need to consider there is some kind of baseline cost to make a consumer box, almost regardless of the specs.
 
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Fabtacular

Member
Jul 11, 2019
4,244
I'm not trying to argue, but it still needs a fan, power supply, motherboard, heat sink, etc etc

Just because the Apu will be less powerful and a couple fewer modules of ram doesn't mean you can clear up 6 inches of space

XBOX-SERIES-X-g.jpg


Hey, if it does ended up being a cube it would be an engineering marvel, I just think it's a bit silly to assume it will be one.
Much smaller heatsink, smaller APU, no disk drive, smaller power supply, etc. Everything will be scaled down.
 

Agent X

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,141
New Jersey
We are talking about next gen. When the next gen hype gets up, Microsoft having am entry level next gen console is a great idea. Unless you think Sony and multiplatform devs are going to keep making next gen games for PS4 for years to come

What exclusive games will be coming out for Lockhart in the first 2 years of its existence, that someone with an Xbox One won't be able to play?
 

jsnepo

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
4,648
Same CPU, SSD and less powerful GPU wouldnt "limit" game design and wouldnt be hard to optimize. PC devs are used to this and the MS dev tools are being made to build scaleable games.

This is good news then. I was interested in getting a One S as a secondary console but would rather wait for Lockhart especially if the price is good.
 
Oct 27, 2017
20,756
Much smaller heatsink, smaller APU, no disk drive, smaller power supply, etc. Everything will be scaled down.
It absolutely needs a disc drive. That's a non starter for people with slow internet and low income consumers. The whole point of LH is it is a lower cost of entry. That same demographic is much more sensitive to game prices and will not be thrilled that they can't gift/buy used games. We're in an depression that may last 2-3 years, removing a $25 part at such a great cost to literally the target demo of the model would be such a bad move imo