Will we ever get PS2-level of variety with games again?

[Deleted member 23893]

There's more variety now than ever, you just got older.

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It's this.

The only reason one would think there was more variety then was marketing, and the prevalence of gaming mags pointing out offbeat gems.

The real difference is mental canon. Back in the PS2 days websites and magazines canonized games like say, Stretch Panic, Mr Mosquito, or Guitaroo Man into the story of the PS2's life by pointing out how off beat they were.

These days there are far more diverse (and dare I say, better) titles on the PS4 being made by smaller devs, but there's so many of them, and they're not boosted into the collective consciousness by press. So they don't become part of the generational narrative.

 

[Aether]

Ok that's fair, some genres have lost all popularity so they have died out for the most part. I can see why someone would say that PS2 had better mid tier in that situation.

Also all 3 platform holders are publishing AA titles, MS with games like Ori or Cuphead, Sony with games like Dreams or Destruction All Stars and Nintendo with Animal Crossing

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Shure. (At the same time, Ori did cost probably simular to many AAA games in the PS1/2 era =O)

For nintendo ... honestly, which games are higher budget than Animal Crossing? Zelda, and...Mario Odyssey? Pokemon? Nintendo generally has way lower budgets than the other 2 for their top games.
And Dreams for shure was not cheap, its a prestigue project that probably did cost just like a AAA game.

Destruction all Stars: with that price it should be AAAA, not AA... (82,75€ on amazon, thats 97,26$...)

 

[werezompire]

If you want to get that old "Browse for new stuff at GameStop" feel, go to Steam, go to New Releases and click on the first 100 games you see. Unless your tastes are very specific or you refuse to play anything with less than a $50 million USD budget, you're going to see some games you've never heard of that you'll think look fun.

 

[Muppet of a Man]

Okay, but we were talking about Dead Space and GTA4.

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What are you taking about? I used them as examples during the PS3/X360 gen. But this discussion spans generations. One cost over three times the other to make (GTA 4 was 3 times as expensive to produce). And Dead Space was definitely a mid tier title in the higher end of the budget range (teetering on AAA). It's first iteration was so successful, that the sequels essentially got AAA budgets. Unfortunately, the more niche appeal of the game had to be compromised along with the ballooning budgets, which ultimately killed the game off by its third iteration. Dead Space is pretty much the quintisential example of why AA game development (largely) died in the first place.

 

[Fifstar]

There may be more variety than ever if you include Indies (although for me even indie games feel like most big profile games fall into a couple of genres like Metroidvanias or Rogue Like), but what I miss is the discussion and the spotlight for those games. In the 90 and 00, you could pick up a gaming magazine and you would have the big games like Final Fantasy or Zelda next to stuff like Klonoa or Gitarro Man. Or on pc you had so many games that weren't neccesarily big sellers, but they were part of the consciousness of gamers. Games like Battle Bugs, Magic Carpet, Bioforge, Interstate 76, Descent on pc or on consoles Mischief Makers, SSX, Wave Race 64, Twisted Metal were known to most gamers even if not all of them were big sellers. Most of these games probably have some indie look a like, but do you see discussions for them? Do people care about them outside of maybe some steam forums or some fringe youtube channels? I don't think so.

 

[Liabe Brave]

feels like we lost a lot of genre since then. especially sports games, they're all focused on sims or trying to be very realistic now. I used to love anime arcade sports game like Ippo and Prince of Tennis, Rakugaki Showtime, NBA Street, NFL Street, there are also more extreme sports games too other than Tony Hawk. Cool Boarders, SSX, BMX

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There are still arcade sports games, still anime sports games, still snowboarding and BMX and motocross and arcade driving games.

This. Younger people have no experience with these types of mid tier games that were experimental in nature but had significant production value because they largely no longer exist.

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But the amount of totally bonkers quirky shit you could find in the past was something else.

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Name some specific experimental, expensive games. Or specific off-the-wall titles. I think knowing what you're referring to is necessary to determine if such games really don't exist anymore.

 

[DontHateTheBacon]

Do you just not play anything but AAA games? There's so many types of games out there now, lol.

 

[thevid]

What are you taking about? I used them as examples during the PS3/X360 gen. But this discussion spans generations. One cost over three times the other to make (GTA 4 was 3 times as expensive to produce). And Dead Space was definitely a mid tier title in the higher end of the budget range (teetering on AAA). It's first iteration was so successful, that the sequels essentially got AAA budgets. Unfortunately, the more niche appeal of the game had to be compromised along with the ballooning budgets, which ultimately killed the game off by its third iteration. Dead Space is pretty much the quintisential example of why AA game development (largely) died in the first place.

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Well then I guess we disagree about where the AA/AAA line is drawn. By the way, a Baldurs Gate 3 developer said that their title has an AAA budget. Do you think the game cost hundreds of millions of dollars? Techland's CEO said that they had 2 AAA games in development in 2016. With a combined budget of $400 million. Just kidding, $80 million. Witcher 3 and Watchdogs must not have been AAA titles because they only cost $70-80 million. How about Horizon: Zero Dawn with its $50 million budget.

Wait, so all these AA games by your own definition, and you want to say AA games are dead? Your argument doesn't hold up.

 

[Aether]

Well then I guess we disagree about where the AA/AAA line is drawn. By the way, a Baldurs Gate 3 developer said that their title has an AAA budget. Do you think the game cost hundreds of millions of dollars? Techland's CEO said that they had 2 AAA games in development in 2016. With a combined budget of $400 million. Just kidding, $80 million. Witcher 3 and Watchdogs must not have been AAA titles because they only cost $70-80 million. How about Horizon: Zero Dawn with its $50 million budget.

Wait, so all these AA games by your own definition, and you want to say AA games are dead? Your argument doesn't hold up.

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While i give you right, im betting that with HZD they counted the investment in decima separately. Otherwise, creating such an engine AND such a game for 50M would be REALLY remarkable.

 

[bionic77]

Name some specific experimental, expensive games. Or specific off-the-wall titles. I think knowing what you're referring to is necessary to determine if such games really don't exist anymore.

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Zone of Enders, Mark of Kri, Okami, Prince of Persia, etc.

 

[Mr_Nothin]

Lot of today indie titles would be released as mid-tier 20-15 years ago.

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And a lot of AAA games could be made for 10x cheaper 20-15 years ago

 

[thevid]

While i give you right, im betting that with HZD they counted the investment in decima separately. Otherwise, creating such an engine AND such a game for 50M would be REALLY remarkable.

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Fair point. But this applies to pretty much all game development budgets. Its hard for anyone to get a true number for this kind of stuff, especially the public.

 

[Muppet of a Man]

Well then I guess we disagree about where the AA/AAA line is drawn. By the way, a Baldurs Gate 3 developer said that their title has an AAA budget. Do you think the game cost hundreds of millions of dollars? Techland's CEO said that they had 2 AAA games in development in 2016. With a combined budget of $400 million. Just kidding, $80 million. Witcher 3 and Watchdogs must not have been AAA titles because they only cost $70-80 million. How about Horizon: Zero Dawn with its $50 million budget.

Wait, so all these AA games by your own definition, and you want to say AA games are dead? Your argument doesn't hold up.

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Half the games you just mentioned were developed in eastern europe and depend on low cost of labor, or labor arbitrage, to keep costs relatively low. And I just explicitly mentioned that Sony has a habit of keeping mid tier gave development alive. There is nothing inconsistent with my previous frame of reference. Those 70 to 80 million dollar games in eastern europe would have cost 150 to 200 million to produce in the US, Japan, Canada, or UK.

 

[Deleted member 11413]

There is far more variety these days in terms of indie development.

However, as for variety from large publishers/mid size publishers and developers, which I think is what you are really referring too...no that will not happen again.

People saying that OP is just "old" should take a look at the publishing catalog of publishers like EA and Activision back then compared to now. All big publishers have massively contracted their catalog. That's what OP is talking about, variety in the full priced retail space at a certain level of budget and above.

 

[8byte]

There is far more variety these days in terms of indie development.

However, as for variety from large publishers/mid size publishers and developers, which I think is what you are really referring too...no that will not happen again.

People saying that OP is just "old" should take a look at the publishing catalog of publishers like EA and Activision back then compared to now. All big publishers have massively contracted their catalog. That's what OP is talking about, variety in the full priced retail space at a certain level of budget and above.

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It doesn't matter where the games are coming from though? It's not like those weird games were of higher quality just because they came from EA or Activision. Indies are still doing it big (and doing it great). Publishers like Devolver Digital exist, and are putting out bangers every year.

Gaming has more variety now than it ever has before. Plus the market is the biggest it's ever been, so those indie hits catapult some studios into the stars to make bigger games next time around.

 

[Graven]

And a lot of AAA games could be made for 10x cheaper 20-15 years ago

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Can you elaborate on that?

On topic:
The industry has more variety than it has ever had, this is the best time to play games.

 

[Dolce]

There's more variety now than ever, you just got older.

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Not if you like racing games.

 

[sbenji]

Mr. Mosquito agrees with OP.

I think current libraries are insanely varied though. Rad is rad and I never heard anything about it. The transition to catalog services like psnow and the Xbox one that everyone forgets exists (Xbox game book?) will only accelerate.

Note I realize that it is generally the reverse with everyone acknowledging game pass and pretending that ps now doesn't exist.

 

[sbenji]

Can you elaborate on that?

On topic:
The industry has more variety than it has ever had, this is the best time to play games.

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You know those really cheaply made full recreations of Greece from ps2 like

Jak n daxter: acropolis now

 

[Muppet of a Man]

There are still arcade sports games, still anime sports games, still snowboarding and BMX and motocross and arcade driving games.



Name some specific experimental, expensive games. Or specific off-the-wall titles. I think knowing what you're referring to is necessary to determine if such games really don't exist anymore.

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This is a good list of (mostly) mid tier, quirky ps2 games:
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.denofgeek.com/games/50-underrated-playstation-2-games/?amp

 

[Glio]

In absolute terms, there is more variety than ever thanks to the indies. But if you only look at the AAA, they have become more and more homogenized (and there aren't a lot of AA)

 

[Jimnymebob]

I think there's more variety now if you don't just look at stuff as AAA or indie. There were certainly less blockbuster type games back then, but there's certainly a wide variety of genres and gameplay ideas available these days compared to the PS2 days.

 

[Deleted member 17210]

Something about PS2 (and a little bit of PS3) just allowed me to pick up a cheap game and buy it based off cool cover art. Of course there were plenty of games that sucked but it never felt like I wasted time or money trying shit out.

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Specific to this point, I felt like I wasted more money on buying random PS2 games to try them than with buying random cheap current gen games. Back then I was scared of low print run games disappearing so it was a gamble to wait for them to go even cheaper. Modern digital releases of quirky stuff don't have that scarcity issue. Also, before youtube, it was harder to just quickly find gameplay footage of obscure games. One thing that was better back then was that big budget games were expected to have demos available (or copies at rental stores which are dead in my area).

 

[Parcas]

Nowadays there is way more variety and niche stuff than there ever was.

 

[PanzerKraken]

If you mean lower budget titles giving more variety, that market has dried up, Indies kinda cover that now.

What we kind have lost is larger variety amount of large low budget games, those middle tier games that are more niche and often forgotten. The costs of development has hurt lot of these games and making smaller cheaper titles has become more popular.

 

[bmdubya]

I mean, I don't know what it's like on consoles, but there are plenty of mid-tier games on PC between the different storefronts in that $30-$40 range. It's on consoles as well as PC but what immediately comes to mind is Remnant: From the Ashes. A $40 game with fantastic gameplay and lots of replayability. It isn't the prettiest game and can be janky at times, but it's honestly been the most enjoyable gaming experience for me recently.

 

[PanzerKraken]

If you mean lower budget titles giving more variety, that market has dried up, Indies kinda cover that now.

What we kind have lost is larger variety amount of large low budget games, those middle tier games that are more niche and often forgotten. The costs of development has hurt lot of these games and making smaller cheaper titles has become more popular.

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The new GI Joe game for example is like the old days where you had lower budget but still "big" full featured games. You know it's cheap, it's not AAA, but it's lower priced and still a full length game. Problem is with so many cheaper budget indie titles, you often even if you find something you like end up with a really short experience or something that feels more like a demo. So many cool indie games I've gotten and then like 2hrs it's done and I'm sad there wasn't more to it.

 

[Chumunga64]

it was bad during the start of the HD era but now we got some good stuff

 

[Deleted member 11413]

It doesn't matter where the games are coming from though? It's not like those weird games were of higher quality just because they came from EA or Activision. Indies are still doing it big (and doing it great). Publishers like Devolver Digital exist, and are putting out bangers every year.

Gaming has more variety now than it ever has before. Plus the market is the biggest it's ever been, so those indie hits catapult some studios into the stars to make bigger games next time around.

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It doesn't matter in terms of quality or variety or how interesting they are, no. It does matter in terms of how much budget they receive.

Let's put it this way: PS2 generation was kind of a sweet spot in terms of 10-30 man teams being able to put out games that looked technically impressive, and also the last time teams of that size really received decent-sized budgets to create games from publishers, both in Japan and in the US. Now you don't have that as much outside platform holders.

Barrier to development has lowered significantly, which means there are far more games and far more variety in games, but that sweet spot doesn't really exist anymore. Devolver is great but they aren't really doing those midrange games much at all, they and Annapurna are more like an art house film production company.

If more indie studios had the quality, polish, team size and output of Supergiant Games or Doublefine (prior to the Microsoft acquisition) that would be different, but that's largely not the case.

 

[Richter1887]

Another example.
Hell, even the PS360 crowd could say they miss Military shooters. COD is still here, but overall they got way less, and online multiplayer shooter got way more focus now.

Its an up and down with some specific genres or game types/themes, and even with more variety it does not mean that everybody gets everything he wants.

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Exactly.

 

[kamineko]

with the exception of indies, i think games are much more expensive to make

seems like studios like atlus that were quite prolific on 3ds will have less output, this has been going on for a while

still lots of good games to play, i always have a small backlog

 

[thecaseace]

Anyone who doesn't think there's enough variety isn't playing enough indies.

In the PS2 era those small games that provided the real niche variety for the platform were made by small studios or small teams in large studios. Now they're made by independent developers.

 

[yyr]

There's more variety now than ever, you just got older.

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First reply nails it yet again. Not sure why we needed 4 pages...

 

[Combichristoffersen]

The mid-tier is mostly gone and indies rarely do anything for me personally. So no, personally I don't think the PS1/PS2 days are coming back.

 

[justiceiro]

There's more variety now than ever, you just got older.

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One and done.

 

[ForthU]

Nope. The DS and PS2 (and PS1) were just in the sweet spot of bonkers install base + relatively cheap to develop for that's impossible to see again.

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DS is probably the last system I'd think about when talking about variety

 

[ViciousToaster]

I get what you're saying OP, as there was certainly more risk taking in that era due to lower budgets. Games that were very creative like Katamari Damacy, Mr. Mosquito, and Killer 7 would be left up to the indies these days. At least things are looking better than they were a few years back, as we've seen some solid platformers get remade and/or come back with all new titles (Crash 4).

 

[Aether]

Looking back at my jrpgs the last view years...

i replayed the PS1 era FFs. There actually arent simular games currerntly, are there? (i know, not AA, but as an example of gaming experiences im having a hard time to find. BTW: i loves octopath travler)

 

[Hazzuh]

There is no defensible argument that gaming is more varied in the mid 2000s than it is now. There are more games in more genres being released than ever before. There are more games at every budget level being released than ever before. There are 100% more interesting midbudget games. Just looking at my 5 most recently played steam games there is Spelunky 2, Hades, Outer wilds, Kentucky Route Zero and Disco Elysium. Its crazy seeing people twist things to argue none of these games count.

 

[MasteroFlich]

There were quite a bit of indie developers that made bonkers this gen. Its not too unlikely some of them step up their game next gen.

 

[Klart]

There's more variety now than ever, you just got older.

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This. And there are a lot of games that are in between "big blockbuster shit" and "some tiny indie game".

 

[KrillinLikeAVillan]

Huh? I feel that we have more variety now than ever thanks to the indie resurgence.

You can find games in damn near every imaginable genre released within the last year alone.
AAA games play it safer than ever but they only represent a tiny fraction of the games being released now.

I have been playing videogames for 35 years and i consider this a true golden age, i have been playing more and better games than ever before.

 

[Pyro]

Not in the AA or AAA space ever again and I'm right there with ya OP. But with that said you can find amazing gems, you just need to sift through digital storefronts for it. Even Steam which is inundated with games I find great little games. Also check out itch.io for the cooler and weirder stuff.

 

[porcupixel]

DS is probably the last system I'd think about when talking about variety

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That's bonkers. The low cost of development + massive install base + introduction of the touch screen allowed for massive experimentation in genres and mechanics along with adapting tried and true genres to a portable format that wouldn't have worked before.

 

[collige]

You're not playing enough indie games if you think they're all "tiny". Console games have always had less variety than the PC, the only ones that gets ported are the ones that appeal to console audience.

 

[8byte]

It doesn't matter in terms of quality or variety or how interesting they are, no. It does matter in terms of how much budget they receive.

Let's put it this way: PS2 generation was kind of a sweet spot in terms of 10-30 man teams being able to put out games that looked technically impressive, and also the last time teams of that size really received decent-sized budgets to create games from publishers, both in Japan and in the US. Now you don't have that as much outside platform holders.

Barrier to development has lowered significantly, which means there are far more games and far more variety in games, but that sweet spot doesn't really exist anymore. Devolver is great but they aren't really doing those midrange games much at all, they and Annapurna are more like an art house film production company.

If more indie studios had the quality, polish, team size and output of Supergiant Games or Doublefine (prior to the Microsoft acquisition) that would be different, but that's largely not the case.

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Still a hard disagree. It sounds more like the folks who have this mindset are simply bothered because it isn't their favorite studio putting out these games, not that the games don't exist.

This generation we got stuff like No Mans Sky, Fall Guys, Hotline Miami, Overcooked, Cuphead, Untitled Goose, Superhot, Surgeon Simulator, Don't Starve, Rocket League, Towerfall, Stardew Valley, The Witness, etc etc etc. I can go on and on listing tons of incredible indie studio games of varying lengths with completely unique styles and genres...the idea that there's anything different just because of something arbitrary like studio name or team size...nah.

I think people maybe forget how small teams were on PS1-PS2 games. So many of the games people love were made by 50 people or less. Those games weren't made by behemoth 200 person teams.

The variety is there, it's just a combination of nostalgia and turning your eye to something because it's not from a studio you recognize. That's it.

I get what you're saying OP, as there was certainly more risk taking in that era due to lower budgets. Games that were very creative like Katamari Damacy, Mr. Mosquito, and Killer 7 would be left up to the indies these days. At least things are looking better than they were a few years back, as we've seen some solid platformers get remade and/or come back with all new titles (Crash 4).

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Like I said above, those games are basically "indie" games. The team sizes for those titles, budgets, etc, were all basically what indie studios have today. The only difference is they don't have to team up with a publisher for distribution, they can link up with a platform holder and do it digitally for a fraction of the cost.

I mean, Katamari Damacy, if I remember right, was developed by a team of like 10-15 people with an extraordinarily small budget (less than $1 mil). Today that team wouldn't need Namco for distribution, they would just self publish on a bunch of platforms digitally.

 

[Lemony1984]

In the AAA space, no.

We are already there if you include more indie type games though

 

[Deleted member 11413]

Still a hard disagree. It sounds more like the folks who have this mindset are simply bothered because it isn't their favorite studio putting out these games, not that the games don't exist.

This generation we got stuff like No Mans Sky, Fall Guys, Hotline Miami, Overcooked, Cuphead, Untitled Goose, Superhot, Surgeon Simulator, Don't Starve, Rocket League, Towerfall, Stardew Valley, The Witness, etc etc etc. I can go on and on listing tons of incredible indie studio games of varying lengths with completely unique styles and genres...the idea that there's anything different just because of something arbitrary like studio name or team size...nah.

I think people maybe forget how small teams were on PS1-PS2 games. So many of the games people love were made by 50 people or less. Those games weren't made by behemoth 200 person teams.

The variety is there, it's just a combination of nostalgia and turning your eye to something because it's not from a studio you recognize. That's it.



Like I said above, those games are basically "indie" games. The team sizes for those titles, budgets, etc, were all basically what indie studios have today. The only difference is they don't have to team up with a publisher for distribution, they can link up with a platform holder and do it digitally for a fraction of the cost.

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You aren't actually disagreeing with anything I said, lol. I was specifically talking about 15-30 man teams during that generation. The budgets were definitely higher because these were salaries, full time employees working for these developers for years and years, not indie developers leveraging their mortgage or relying on crowdfunding for cash to get through development and hopefully have a big hit at the end.

I also said that there is more variety now than before, multiple times. Did you actually read the post or not?

 

[Leeway]

Nowadays there is way more variety and niche stuff than there ever was.

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Pretty much this! There's just so much out there, I wish I had these many options when I was a kid. The "AA mid-tier" I feel has just moved to what we would now call "indie".

 

[ForthU]

That's bonkers. The low cost of development + massive install base + introduction of the touch screen allowed for massive experimentation in genres and mechanics along with adapting tried and true genres to a portable format that wouldn't have worked before.

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Most failed though. Many others were cute but I feel like indie games nowadays share the same mentality - while being much more fleshed out and less gimmicky. Outside of games like PW/Layton/Hotel Dusk, or puzzle and rhythm games, I have a hard time thinking about genres that actually benefited from the touch screen. And outside of those genres(+ platformers and rpgs) it felt like the DS really struggle to cover the other genres