So forgetting insults based on medical conditions even if someone is throwing racial or homophobic slurs at someone you believe the person on the receiving end is not morally entitled to smack the person?
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Will Smith Breaks Silence: “Deeply Remorseful” For Oscar Slap
- Thread starter DinkyDev
- Start date
I'd be the first person out of their seat clapping if someone's palm met Gervais' face on stage.
Not when there are options available between violence and doing nothing. No matter which terms you employ to minimize the use of violence. "Smacking" someone is still violence under the law and under my moral understanding. Instead of violence, you could insult them back, try to get some recourse with their employer, put them on blast, ect. Violence is usually only justified when there isn't another option. You also don't have to stand and take it. If Will & Jada had stood and left the venue, all this criticism would have been completely on Chris' head and they would be completely vindicated for taking the principled and imo the morally correct stance
If you're seeking support for Ricky Gervais here I don't think you'll find it.
What gets me about if his shtick on the Golden Globes is he's there attacking the Hollywood elites like he's just some random putz and isn't exactly one of them (or hopes to be, if his efforts at ingratiation didn't constantly fail).
His fanbase probably consists of a lot of the same morons who consider Trump a truth-telling outsider, even though he's exactly the person he claims to deride.
Well saying you don't agree isn't really very useful when you can't articulate why. Legally I'm correct and morally I've said why I think this.
And I think you are wrong on both counts. If a cop sees you slap someone you will be treated differently in court than if the cop had seen you knock someone out with a sucker punch despite both TECHNICALLY being assault. The amount of force used matters. Context matters.
And as far as "morally" goes? I think of someone gets in your face and starts using slurs or attacking you or your loved one based on something you or they can't control I will have no problem if that person gets some karmic justice sent their way in the shape of a hand (or fist).
"Violence is never the answer!" is a fine ideal to try and emulate. But rarely is that going to be a thing in the real world. It's been that way since we learned how to speak.
It isn't trolling when the myth that "he's been attacking her for decades!" is a core part of the argument.
You just used quotation marks for something I haven't said. Violence can be the answer for threats, but for insults? Not when you have another option available to you. There are other consequences someone can suffer for insulting someone. Social, professional, emotional. Legally you haven't made anything resembling a point. Nobody said anything about sucker punches. If you look up the law, you are not justified in throwing the first punch unless you have a reason to believe the person is threatening you
Seattle Neo-Nazi Punched After Throwing Banana at Man
Bananas have a dark history entwined with racist tropes.
www.vice.com
So not justified?
Also, can we stop with the "legality," it really adds nothing to anything because everyone is aware that what Will Smith did would be at least battery if Rock had decided to press charges.
Slurs are inherently threats. They tell you everything you need to know about the mindset of the person using them.
Throwing a banana is assault + insultSeattle Neo-Nazi Punched After Throwing Banana at Man
Bananas have a dark history entwined with racist tropes.
So not justified?
Also, can we stop with the "legality," it really adds nothing to anything because everyone is aware that what Will Smith did would be at least battery if Rock had decided to press charges.
That isn't an insult alone
And I've said "legally and morally" to make the point that from any angle I am correct
The person who he threw the banana at wasn't the person who decked him.
The person who punched him
1.Saw his nazi armband
2.Was told "Black People deserved welfare."
So not justifiable?
The person who decked him was defending him from assault + an insult. You can't decouple the insult from the assault in this case
Before the Oscars he made what, 2 jokes at Jada's expense in 25 years? And you're the one talking about pearl clutching.
It was physically the same action in this case. In Rock's case there was no commensurate assaulting action to accompany the insult. Not the same
Let's say I'm walking down the street, a dude yells out "hey cripple can you speed it along", I would be wrong in your moral system to respond with violence?
User Banned (Permanent): Dismissing concerns of bigotry, previous severe ban for dismissing concerns of transphobia
If you think that what Will did was justified, that's cool, you're entitled to that opinion which is what this place is all about.
It's just so fucking lame to cast aspersions on anyone who doesn't share your opinion. "Oh you're just sheltered and privileged. You're a white person who doesn get it. You're trolling. You're racist and trying to paint Will as a scary black man. I bet you'd be ok with insulting a disabled person."
Like that's just unecessary bullshit. Why are you incapable of just having a disagreement?
It's just so fucking lame to cast aspersions on anyone who doesn't share your opinion. "Oh you're just sheltered and privileged. You're a white person who doesn get it. You're trolling. You're racist and trying to paint Will as a scary black man. I bet you'd be ok with insulting a disabled person."
Like that's just unecessary bullshit. Why are you incapable of just having a disagreement?
As a justification for assault? Yeah.
I mean I won't assault anyone over them at the next meet-up.
You keep saying that...but like no one thinks Will Smith handled it well. Unless you want to go back like ten pages. You're conflating understanding why he did it with approving of it.
Doesn't answer my question.
What if there isn't? Let's say it's a complete stranger to me, I have no idea who they are. I don't have it on video, it's my word against theirs. It feels like you've just taken away a tool from a very limited toolbox to help ensure this person thinks twice before causing harm in the future. There can also be the issue of power differentials, where someone who holds more power or influence than you can limit your options for recourse.
Also if somebody is willing to dehumanize you, I feel like they have already crossed a threat threshold if they are not operating with a base level of humanity, that's already a dangerous person.
Smack someone in the mouth over a joke = "Totally justified!"
Calling an internet argument lame = "Ooh, fragile!"
Whining about black people calling out white people for being ignorant to much of the nuance of the situation is showing your fragility, yes.
Do you feel like you are being singled out because you are white because considering the likely demographic of the forum I would not be surprised if most of the thread was white people posting yet somehow nobody else has complained about this
Still pretending it's "just a joke" I see. That is why I said you are trolling.
You are intentionally ignoring all the facts that have been laid out in front of you showing that it was much more than just a joke.
I don't think I'm being singled out at all so not sure what you're trying to get at.
Wait what? Please describe a situation where someone is publicly insulting you (not threatening you) and there is no option available except violence.
I already told you earlier. Slurs are inherently threatening.
If someone walks up to a gay person and starts throwing around homophobic slurs at them you don't think that person is going to feel physically threatened? You don't think that person might feel like their life is in danger?
I just did or at least thought I did. Walking down a street, nobody else around, a stranger confronts you with hateful speech. Maybe they aren't even locals, just some rando on vacation. You have no evidence of this occurring beyond that you know it happened. Alternatively, you are confronted by a group of people, same deal, total strangers, either there is nobody else around or the people who are around don't give a shit or don't want to get involved.
You don't know their names, you don't know where they work, you can do no damage to their employment or peers, and emotionally given they are hurling around hateful speech and already see you as less than human there's nothing effective you can do there.
The dichotomy you have set up leaves the victim with the option of just walking away leaving the individual likely to engage in that behavior again because they have suffered no consequences.
The thing about the situation is that the elephant in the room is the racial double standard. While what Smith did is wrong there's a laundry list of prominent celebrities who have done the same, or worse, who don't get ostracized or just fall back into grace. Even the Tom Cruise example brought up earlier in the thread doesn't feel the same. He still was in 2-3 big budget movies basically every year after his Oprah moment.
So it feels off to a lot of members that Hollywood, and the public at large, are willing to gloss over stuff like Sean Penn beating Madonna, Fassbenders alleged domestic violence incidents, the laundry list of sexual abusers who get written off as "just a mistake" or "he's changed." For me it's a bit tiring to see Will Smith shot on so much for one mistake after 40 years in the public eye while someone like Ezra Miller was seen on camera choking a woman and a large chunk of Era played it off as "oh they're just goofing around" and now that it's become apparently they're a serial abuser at best it's "oh they need help." So the infantantalizing of white celebrities who fuck up compared to black celebrities is obnoxious and reads like the most annoying kind of respectability politics mixed with white navel gazing about the black community.
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I'm glad you asked this specific scenario because it happened to me before. (I'm Bi btw) I was called an f-slur by some guy and it did make me feel threatened, but I had the option to walk away and seek recourse another way and he ultimately had to apologize.
I am genuinely happy for you. That's not always the case for everyone else though.
To pretend that violence is never the answer when confronted with hate or targeted harassment is just not realistic.
I haven't pretended shit. Stop saying I've said stuff I haven't. When did I say violence is never the answer? I said violence can be an answer to threats.
I'm sorry that happened to you, what if the recourse you sought never happened though? I'm sure you realize it's not feasible to get an apology in every situation, or even any acknowledgment at all? People kill themselves over the dehumanizing things people say to them, or they self-harm, or they medicate with substances, there is a real-world physical harm that can be attached especially for marginalized groups. In the examples I proposed, an apology would be extremely unlikely, and it's not even an uncommon scenario whatsoever for a stranger you've never seen before and will never see again to confront someone with hateful speech and continue going on about their day. If anything those types are even more emboldened if there is nobody around to call them out.
Yes and I am saying that insults can be threats. Because you specifically said that violence in response to insults is not okay, but in response to threats it is. I'm saying at a certain point they are one and the same.
That's the whole point I am trying to make here.
Slurs can be a crime but I don't think you're talkijg about the legal argument here. Morally you have options to respond without violence and if you feel threatened then do whatever you think is necessary to protect yourself. But me personally I don't resort to violence unless I have no other option and in the case of a stranger I have no reason to think there will be any future altercation if I just avoid them this one time. If they follow me or harass me again later then it's on, but that's my personal moral stance. this is all pretty far removed from the current situation where Chris Rock and Will Smith know each other and there wasn't some expectation of violence from Rock at the oscars.
I know it's far from the Will Smith situation. I only brought it up because you cast such a wide net. I was just point out there were clear exceptions to what you said.
As far as Wills situation goes I am not going to say that what he did was 100% fine, but I sure as hell understand why he did it. I'm also not going to judge him very much for doing it.
All of this has just benefited Chris Rock for some temporary discomfort after making fun of the medical condition of a woman on live tv. It's honestly hilarious to me when people try to paint him as some poor, poor victim lol.
Dude is currently on tour and making bank from the scandal, all while never once apologizing to the person he went off-script to insult.
Dude is currently on tour and making bank from the scandal, all while never once apologizing to the person he went off-script to insult.
I'm fine with cutting him slack for understandable emotional reasons. But if we are being nuanced here, let's also not forget he is a bit more privileged due to his wealth and fame than your average black man and if this were to have happened in any other situation I think there would have been stiffer consequences. I know he is obviously being held to a higher standard than any white actors who have done similar things but I also decry their actions and think they should have gotten a more fitting punishment.